SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 103
  1. #76
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think the sensibility in the effort put into compliance is like the equivalant of teaching a child to think for others and not just themselves. Compliance doesn't yield any tangible effect aside from taking pride in your work.

    Sites that are compliant would still work against todays standards, however it's due to the rendering device (most commonly MSIE, a highly standards non-compliant browser) that you cannot merely assume that the site works for all your visitors. MSIE has ActiveX, a proprietary language that, IMHO, has no place on the web when it comes to data structure. Instead of adopting Javascript (formerly ECMAScript), MSIE chooses to create it's own interpretation called JScript. Instead of following W3C standards and rendering CSS/XHTML properly, MSIE's internal engine often fails to format the data properly. MSIE even chose not to adopt the W3C DOM (Document Object Model), again requiring developers to code SPECIFICALLY for a browser that was propagated by piggybacking on the Windows OS to millions of users.

    Arch, you're too set in looking for present day benefits. You have to look to compliance as working for a better future for the net. It's like someone saying "Well, I drive a gas guzzling ozone depleting, green-house effect producing SUV because I don't see global warming happening right now. The temperature's just fine."

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a tree-hugger; and if I had the money to get a SUV, I'd do it without a second thought -- even if it meant that Tree-Huggers had the same interpretive discussion with me about how I need to "work towards a better future".

    I still don't think I'm wrong about college, because college, like many of life's situations, merely provides you knowledge. If you think that college can teach people how to learn, why not teach a fish how to learn to speak english? The reason why they can't is because they don't teach you how to learn, they teach you to pass on knowledge. It is our intellect which lets up interpret that knowledge to apply towards life experience. Depth and breadth of knowledge are still aspects of knowledge, they have nothing to do with learning. Learning takes intellect. Knowledge fuels intellect.

    But hiring policies of old, to me, hold little weight in many new emerging fields. In the end, the bottom line belongs to the employer (I wouldn't want someone telling me how I HAVE to hire someone, rather I'd be open to hear them tell me how I COULD hire someone)

    I'd be interested to see if Albert could hold a job as a code monkey. I would think that with his line of interest, he would have no desire to program. He may have an interest in determining formulas for them to use, but I think the position he held and a programmer hold enough difference to possibly warrant him staying where he wants.

    A lot of times, going higher up the company ladder means you have to get into management. Myself included, I could not fathom wanting such a position. (No offense to any managers) What good management realizes is that in the pyramid rank of the company, it cannot exist without a base.

  2. #77
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh, and BTW, I really enjoy this thread. I've gotten to see a lot of different perspectives on the topic, and am glad to find a forum where many intellectual people can discuss this in a mature way. Very refreshing compared to other forums I've been on.

  3. #78
    Back in Action Winged Spider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    outside my mind
    Posts
    900
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think Brink-n-Mortar and the rebellion against it keeps the web development field interesting. Great salesman and really talented firms can get away with billing somebody for "standards compliance" while other firms just push out results.

    Standards compliance doesn't provide any significant ROI and I am still amazed that people put w3c buttons on their site. Does your average visitor even care?

    aaron.martone's global warming comparison is a great example of the clouded vision of some web developers. If you want to support web standards than that is great but don't compare it to an environmental crises. Thats a pretty insane comparison. I'm pretty sure the web will survive if my webpages don't validate.

    I always felt that if all browsers worked the same the web dev. field will become even MORE commodities, and we certainly don't want that.


  4. #79
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Actually, Spider, the comparison has to do with the attitude that "if it doesn't concern me now, why should I bother" You imbue an overtone that it had to do with the scale of importance. Come on, let's be realistic here -- of course web standards are not as important as global warming. I think that was a rather unintelligent assumption to make.

    Maybe next time you'll ask for clarification before taking a flying leap off the docks without checking the depth of the water, lol.

  5. #80
    SitePoint Addict
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Grand Junction, CO
    Posts
    292
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh god. Stop taking condescending tones with people who don't understand what you're saying. The bottom line is that you're making some fairly outrageous suggestions with no experience or evidence to back them up. It's no surprise that people are going to misinterpret what you say.

  6. #81
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Actually, pergesu, if you can deride emotion from text, you need to go speak with some "Believe it or Not" folks and make a cool million.

    I'm glad you've ignored the fact that the previous poster chose to insult the opinion in question rather than offer subjective comments, but don't start declaring your opinion of the bottom line as being fact. You've no means or proof to prove such. I see nothing outrageous about the topic. Like thousands others, it asks for the opinion of many on a current methodology. The poster decided to insult, so I just gave the same medicine back -- before then, I can't see how anything I've said comes off as condescending.

    Miscommunication is a part of forum discussion - Simply because it's not the primary method of communication we use (talking) But you can make a choice to jump the gun and fly off by the handle with what is presumed or you can seek clarification and avoid much miscommunication and confusion by just asking.

  7. #82
    Non-Member deathshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Dublin, NH
    Posts
    901
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob View Post
    So unless you can actually show me some real tangible benefits of this great complaince myself and other developers aren't going to jump on the w3c bandwagon and I doubt the standard is really going to be much more supported than it is today. Its all about tangible benefits.
    A compliant validating site is less likely to be broken across different browsers - WHY? Because it means there are no stupid obvious errors like failing to close a tag or using unneeded CSS hacks. Just including a proper doctype ALONE can take IE out of quirks mode making your site render much closer in appearance between IE and RoW (Rest of World)

    Of course, as several have mentioned you seem to have confused proper use of CSS with standards compliance - combined they have tangible benefits for sure... like reducing your overall page size, allowing multiple pages in the same style to cache the appearance, and in general reducing your bandwidth consumption. Bandwidth = $$$, a bottom line that a LOT of developers seem to forget.

    Honestly, one quick check of your 'chipmunk scripts' code shows why validation might not be a bad idea...

    Error Line 97 column 126: end tag for element "TD" which is not open.
    ...ttest members</b></font></center></td></tr>


    Error Line 97 column 131: end tag for element "TR" which is not open.
    ... members</b></font></center></td></tr>


    Error Line 98 column 677: end tag for element "TABLE" which is not open.
    ..._blank'>ajdegans</a></td></tr></table><br><br><table bordercolor='black' bgco

    If you don't see what's wrong with this:
    Code:
    <tr class='mainrow'><td><li><A href='page.php?ID=7'>Chipmunk CMS</a><br><li><A href='page.php?ID=8'>Forums PHP Script</a><br><li><A href='page.php?ID=9'>Chipmunk Blogger Script</a><br>
    Then yes, you aren't going to understand validation, since you haven't quite figured out HTML yet.

    Please, this isn't meant as an attack, just trying to get you to grasp what it is everyone else here is talking about.

  8. #83
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in this vast universe
    Posts
    3,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yeah, I see that, Obvious error is my script generated HTML(I'll fix it later today), but it shows up fine in IE, FireFox, and Opera as far as I can tell, I'll have to check again today. As for other browsers, if anyone uses anything besides those three, please raise your hand.

    Point is, I don't think anyone will care is there is not visible difference.

    As for bandwidth, alot of people had said this, but the real impact is so small its not noticable. You have to link in your stylesheet on every page, usually that file is almost as big as the page itself at times, it doesn't save much bandwidth. I've done comparisons, there are hardly any savings.

  9. #84
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,236
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Winged Spider View Post
    I always felt that if all browsers worked the same the web dev. field will become even MORE commodities, and we certainly don't want that.
    I'd rather spend my time pumping out new sites/apps and not debugging browsers, so I think your line of reasoning is pretty crappy and naive. The browser is the one thing that should be a commodity more than anything else in web development.

    But this line of discussion isn't at all related to the thread. Post about standards compliance or whatever in the Web Design forums and it won't get closed if you bring something new to the table that hasn't been said in the other 1000 CSS vs Tables threads we've had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob

    As for bandwidth, alot of people had said this, but the real impact is so small its not noticable. You have to link in your stylesheet on every page, usually that file is almost as big as the page itself at times, it doesn't save much bandwidth. I've done comparisons, there are hardly any savings.
    Quick HTTP/browser lesson: After that first request for the .css file, it's cached in your browser and doesn't need to be called again for subsequent visits until you clear your cache or the CSS file is updated. This is where the savings comes in, same if you use a common Javascript library throughout your site and link it externally. It might not be enough savings for you to switch over, but unless you left out some details it seems like your "analysis" wasn't all that well thought out.

  10. #85
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in this vast universe
    Posts
    3,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Funny, I'm just looking at actual MB's used in bandwidth, there's not really a difference. Including CSS into a page doesn't really save bandwidth mainly because:

    1. Majority of bandwidth is in images/downloads anyways for many sites(but not for mine)

    2. Typing in div class= isn't too much savings over type table border=

    You still have to specify were the divs go in the actual html page. Your specifying really the properties in the CSS tag, the amount of text eliminated isn't actually all that much in most cases I've been through.

    On a side note: This has nothing to do with complaince, this is CSS vs. Tables. CSS and tables and both be complaint or non-complaint. As aaron mentioned earlier complaince doesn't actually make your website load faster or really save bandwidth.

  11. #86
    Non-Member deathshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Dublin, NH
    Posts
    901
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by vgarcia View Post
    it's cached in your browser and doesn't need to be called again for subsequent visits until you clear your cache or the CSS file is updated.
    Which is something a LOT of people just cannot grasp.

  12. #87
    Non-Member deathshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Dublin, NH
    Posts
    901
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob View Post
    On a side note: This has nothing to do with complaince, this is CSS vs. Tables. CSS and tables and both be complaint or non-complaint. As aaron mentioned earlier complaince doesn't actually make your website load faster or really save bandwidth.
    Nobody said not to use tables - and it CAN save bandwidth because instead of specifying the same thing over and over again (cellpadding=0 border=0 cellspacing=0) on each and every one, you can do it once in the CSS (table { border-collapse:collapse; } AND not have to worry about IE adding extra padding and having an entirely DIFFERENT table layout than RoW. Even if you don't use CSS, one should at least open and close tags properly, nest tags properly, so at least tomorrow's 'flavor of the month' web browser has some idea what the **** you are trying to do.

    Oh yeah, the browser spending all that time on error correction isn't hurting anybody... and I'm so sure other web professionals are going to take you seriously when your document doesn't even HAVE <html> at the top and </html> at the bottom, has content before the BODY tag, uses LI's without putting them inside a list, is bloated down with single cell tables and throws so many errors that Opera's error console goes completely beserk (likely meaning Firefux after prolonged viewing of the site will start to chew memory and cpu like it was going out of style because of it's highly touted 'memory feature').

    You are wasting bandwidth, making the work of anyone else who ends up maintaining the site after you (it does happen eventually) nothing short of a total nightmare, making more work for yourself as you likely are having to work AROUND the rendering errors (much less being almost impossible to find what could be screwing things up when problems occur) - and SHOULD something not work right and you have to ask for help, most everyone is going to say 'throw your code out, it's not even valid HTML' - a phrase you hear an awful lot around these forums when people ask for help. If you have major malformed html errors on almost every line of code, just finding one bug ends up the proverbial needle in a haystack.

    But then, that could just be the fact I've had to clean up after other peoples low yield HTML disasters in the past.

    I still say that Until one learns to write VALID HTML (to the point it validates on your first try), one has no business calling oneself a professional web developer - degree or no... and I feel genuinely sorry for the people who lack the knowledge to make rational hiring decisions in these fields, as they often end up saddled with maintennance nightmares created by people with degrees and no actual working knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob View Post
    I've been hired for freelance by a couple of design companies and not one of them asked about w3standards)
    and that RIGHT THERE should be a warning bell that the people doing the hiring don't know anything about the field they are hiring for... which ties into something I've said a dozen times - most of the people hiring for jobs look for degrees and experience BECAUSE they don't understand how to do the job... if they did, they'd probably be doing it themselves. It's actually a rarity to find a boss that understands the underlying details of how the job their employees do actually works. That's why they hire someone else to do it.

    YES, the average viewer doesn't care, they just want it to work - BUT, the employer, who doesn't know anything about CSS, HTML, valdation, etc. likely at least expects a 'professional freelancer' to make a website that if they need it worked on by someone else, they'll at least have a clue what's going on and not tell them 'it's such a train wreck I'm going to have to throw it all out just to have a workable baseline'

    Which is exactly what I would tell one of your clients if they came to me about doing something on the sites listed in your sig.

  13. #88
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,236
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Please read this again everyone:
    Quote Originally Posted by me

    But this line of discussion isn't at all related to the thread. Post about standards compliance or whatever in the Web Design forums and it won't get closed if you bring something new to the table that hasn't been said in the other 1000 CSS vs Tables threads we've had.
    Thanks.

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    lol.

    Wow, the topic kinda changed here -- but it's all good. There are a lot of subjective areas of web development. And like scientists telling you "THIS is good for you", down the line things are apt to happen where they'll start telling you just the opposite.

  15. #90
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    21
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone View Post
    Whereso Archbob?

    I'm not doubting you can't, I just have never seen it. Everytime I looked into a Computer Science Degree, it was all geared around programming apps for the PC via C# or Java.
    I know this post is a few days old, but what programs were you looking at exactly? It's been my experience that the better colleges and universities (Carnegie Mellon, MIT, Cornell, Georgia Tech, etc) teach CS theory mainly, and their classes happen to use languages like Assembly, C, Java, Smalltalk, etc, but mainly for students to get a practical application of that theory. That was close to a decade ago though, but if the top schools have changed that much, I'd be very surprised.

  16. #91
    SitePoint Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    19
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    They didn't. At least not CMU nor Cornell.

  17. #92
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in this vast universe
    Posts
    3,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No, the top schools have stayed he same.

  18. #93
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not sure I'm answering the question properly (let me know if I didn't)

    But if we're asking about what programs/courses I feel are "web development oriented", I would say something along the lines of:

    Adobe Dreamweaver
    Adobe Flash
    Adobe Coldfusion
    Adobe Photoshop
    Adobe Illustrator
    Microsoft IIS6
    Basic Network Administration on W2k/W2k3/V Network
    MSSQL 2k/2k5 Administration
    Database Programming (MSSQL,MySQL,Oracle)
    Graphic Design Principles
    XHTML/CSS
    ECMAScript/Javascript
    Flash Design & Actionscript Programming
    Search Engine Optimization
    Graphic/Print
    Internet Browsing/FTP

    Just to name a few.

    If we were talking about programs/courses for CS degrees, I haven't looked into it in depth enough to remember each entry, but it was along the lines of

    Programming Principles I, II, III
    C++ or C# (Sharp)
    Java 2 or J2EE
    Advanced Mathematical/Algorithm Theories

    I'm sure there are MANY more (and mean no disrespect by not listing them), I'm just not "in-tune" with the current or tried-and-true programming-related courses.

  19. #94
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in this vast universe
    Posts
    3,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No, as I've said a million times, CS courses are mostly math or computational logic, not language specific.

    Why would you take a course for those things? Just pick up a book, read it and do the examples and learn. Honestly 95&#37; of web apps are redundant of each other, if you can do one, you can almost do them all.

    Programming PHP is not different from C++, it all works the same. The syntax is different, but that doesn't require a class to learn.

  20. #95
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I can see logic in that. I'm kind of a a fan of the "Pickup a book on the subject rather than take a class" approach as well. However, I still don't see many CS degrees that DON'T list those languages as requirements - not to say it won't have computational logic / math as well; I'm sure it does.

  21. #96
    Level 8 Chinese guy Archbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Somewhere in this vast universe
    Posts
    3,732
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter which language you learn. Once you can program in one, you can program in all of them.

    They just teach you the most common ones that companies use.
    There's no point in focusing on one language.

    Your learning the computational process and methods, not the languages themselves. The classes are teaching to think and solve abstract computational problems.

  22. #97
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,236
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaron.martone View Post
    I'm not sure I'm answering the question properly (let me know if I didn't)

    But if we're asking about what programs/courses I feel are "web development oriented", I would say something along the lines of:

    Adobe Dreamweaver
    Adobe Flash
    Adobe Coldfusion
    Adobe Photoshop
    Adobe Illustrator
    Microsoft IIS6
    Basic Network Administration on W2k/W2k3/V Network
    MSSQL 2k/2k5 Administration
    Database Programming (MSSQL,MySQL,Oracle)
    Graphic Design Principles
    XHTML/CSS
    ECMAScript/Javascript
    Flash Design & Actionscript Programming
    Search Engine Optimization
    Graphic/Print
    Internet Browsing/FTP

    Just to name a few.

    If we were talking about programs/courses for CS degrees, I haven't looked into it in depth enough to remember each entry, but it was along the lines of

    Programming Principles I, II, III
    C++ or C# (Sharp)
    Java 2 or J2EE
    Advanced Mathematical/Algorithm Theories

    I'm sure there are MANY more (and mean no disrespect by not listing them), I'm just not "in-tune" with the current or tried-and-true programming-related courses.
    Aaron, it really sounds like what you want is stuff that's offered at almost every community college in the country. A friend of mine is taking a Dreamweaver course right now because he's a print designer but wants to build a little online portfolio for himself. And I know there are plenty of courses on Windows administration floating around my local community college. I saw nothing in your list of project management, requirements gathering, software design, etc. which is a little disheartening, because those are skills you need both during your web development career and afterwards when you're a manager/art director/lead developer/whatever.

    You can go get an associate's degree in 2 years or less that will teach you all those really specific things, but then your entire education is obsolete within 5-10 years unless you retrain constantly. That will get you a job, even with the crazy HR departments in companies like those mentioned earlier, but it won't make a career for you.

  23. #98
    SitePoint Addict longroad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    236
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Archbob View Post
    You don't seem to get it. It doesn't matter which language you learn. Once you can program in one, you can program in all of them.

    They just teach you the most common ones that companies use.
    There's no point in focusing on one language.

    Your learning the computational process and methods, not the languages themselves. The classes are teaching to think and solve abstract computational problems.
    Well said. People who havent learnt programming don't really understand that concept.
    Programming is a way of thinking.

    Its like driving a car - you can learn to drive in one car, then go off and drive any car you like. Each car will have slight differences that you will have to learn but the basic concept of operating the car remains the same.

  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard aaron.martone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    2,322
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Archbob -
    You need to settle down there man. I DO get it. Try to re-read my response in a manner not automatically indicative that I don't comprehend what you're saying -- it's being taken as insulting.

    Vinnie -
    I guess I don't have a career, then. I will never get into management. If they offer me the position, I'll turn it down. To me, management is one step towards a rung I won't want to climb on the corporate ladder. Keep me in the grunt work.

    Like I was saying, "Web Developer" is an umbrella term. If you want to add "Project/Business Management" and "Software Designer" under the umbrella, who's to say you can't?

    I'm sure after 2 years, you'd have novice-intermediate knowledge in those tools, but unless I'm unfathomably slow (and I'm not ruling that out), I don't see someone becoming a professional in all those areas in such an amazingly short time. If they were, they could easily demand a $300,000/year job. For lack of an ability to express it any better, I think they need to gain "on the job experience" in order to "fill in the blanks" in any chosen career after going to college.

  25. #100
    Non-Member deathshadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Dublin, NH
    Posts
    901
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by longroad View Post
    Well said. People who havent learnt programming don't really understand that concept.
    Programming is a way of thinking.

    Its like driving a car - you can learn to drive in one car, then go off and drive any car you like. Each car will have slight differences that you will have to learn but the basic concept of operating the car remains the same.
    Which is why I still think people should START with assembly - the closer you make your code to how the computer ACTUALLY works, the cleaner your code will be once you start making stuff in the high level languages.

    But then, I cut my teeth hand coding machine language and entering it one byte at a time with 8 toggle switches and a push button.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •