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  1. #1
    SitePoint Addict gthorley's Avatar
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    First question are doorway pages accepted by search engines or considered spam? I read on another forum that multiple submissions of the same domain name with different directories is frowned on.

    If our site has different content on different pages such as artbyjudy.com/florals.html and artbyjudy.com/landscapes.html if I submit these urls to search engines are they considered a doorway? If I submitted these should I have a diferent title for each page and also meta tags on them?

    If I had an url artbyjudy.ourartpage.com or ourartpage.com/artbyjudy.html and if this opened a page with exactly the same content as the index page at artbyjudy.com but had a different title and meta description would this cause a problem with search engines.

  2. #2
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    Whether or not it is considered spam is debatable, no doubt. Personally, I don't bother. Submitting my main domain while using proper meta tags seems to work fine. I think if you created the exact same page in two different locations in your server is definitely dishonest. Of the engines/directories, Yahoo! is run by real people and they are less likely to list your site at all if you submit multiple pages; they only allow for one listing of your site on their's. If you want to go to the trouble to create dishonest doorway pages, fine, but it's generally something I avoid on my site.

  3. #3
    SitePoint Addict gthorley's Avatar
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    Marc thanks for taking the time to reply especially as you are the only one looking to share info.

    First I am trying to avoid spamming or doing anything that will piss off the search engines but let me put what I am asking in some perspective that you can understand.

    I am say interested in golf and your site has pages of various sports. Say you submitted the following url to search engines and had meta tags in it covering things that a search for golf would bring up
    http://www.sports-central.org/sports/golf/
    Would you consider this spamming or dishonest? I think if someone does a search on golf and the url to a section of your site turns up that helps the person searching. I am looking to do the same with our site only instead of Golf it would be say "landscapes".

    You seem to be saying that doorway pages are dishonest and frowned on but I am not getting that from reading about them. My problem is I don't know what a doorway page is exactly. Whether it is a subdomain pointing to a specfic section of your site or just the url to a specfic topic directory. I just want to approach it in a way that search engines find acceptable.

    Since my first post I came across the following interesting info on doorway pages
    http://www.iboost.com/promote/search...ages/00115.htm

  4. #4
    SitePoint Enthusiast Sharon & Roy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gthorley
    First I am trying to avoid spamming or doing anything that will piss off the search engines but let me put what I am asking in some perspective that you can understand.

    You seem to be saying that doorway pages are dishonest and frowned on but I am not getting that from reading about them. My problem is I don't know what a doorway page is exactly.
    gthorley, my advise is to forget about what a doorway page is or is not. Just do this ...

    Decide on a keyword phrase to find your page. Then follow the advice we gave here ...

    http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=20461
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  5. #5
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gthorley
    First question are doorway pages accepted by search engines or considered spam? I read on another forum that multiple submissions of the same domain name with different directories is frowned on.

    In almost all cases, it is not considered spam. You should be able to submit a number of different pages at a time to a search engine. Some search engine have limits, and if you go over that limit they ignore your request. I generally never submit more than 3 pages to the same search engine unless they expicitly say you can submit more.

    It's true that Yahoo will only want you to submit one page, so you should submit your main page, the one with the relevant content etc. It will be seen by a human.

    If our site has different content on different pages such as artbyjudy.com/florals.html and artbyjudy.com/landscapes.html if I submit these urls to search engines are they considered a doorway? If I submitted these should I have a diferent title for each page and also meta tags on them?

    In most cases you don't need to submit extra pages if they are linked from your front page. But by all means, it is good to have relevant meta tags and a relevant title for each page. It doesn't matter if the tags and title are the same, but you would want them to be different so there is a chance that the particular page will be relevant to a certain search term.

    If I had an url artbyjudy.ourartpage.com or ourartpage.com/artbyjudy.html and if this opened a page with exactly the same content as the index page at artbyjudy.com but had a different title and meta description would this cause a problem with search engines.

    This is a bit spammy. It is only an ethical consideration, and it depends on your own opinion.

    You shouldn't submit more than one doorway page with identical content to a search engine, and you should make sure that the additional doorway pages aren't linked to from your site, or from each other.

    As others have said, I don't think you should bother with this practice. If you have lots of different pages on your site, each with relevant information, then these pages should help you in a way that doorway pages cannot.

    There is a good sitepoint article on this topic here:
    http://www.promotionbase.com/article.php/366
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  6. #6
    SitePoint Addict gthorley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sharon & Roy


    Decide on a keyword phrase to find your page. Then follow the advice we gave here ...

    http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=20461
    That is a gem of a reply and I don't know how I missed it before as I read everything that is indicated as a new post.

    Can you clarify what you mean by "keyword phrase" Do you mean a descriptive title ie: presently our title is "Art and Watercolors - The Palette of Judy Thorley". It would probably be better for search engines if the Title was "Watercolor art by Judy Thorley floral landscape abstract life an artist from Canada". I read somewhere that some search engines ignor anthing after the first 7 words in the title, is that correct? Are you penalized for grammer ie: it would read better in a different order and with commas etc. but that could make it longer.

  7. #7
    SitePoint Addict gthorley's Avatar
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    MMJ thanks for your detailed response

  8. #8
    SitePoint Enthusiast Sharon & Roy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gthorley
    That is a gem of a reply and I don't know how I missed it before as I read everything that is indicated as a new post.
    Thank you, gthorley! We certainly appreciate your compliment.

    Can you clarify what you mean by "keyword phrase" Do you mean a descriptive title ie: presently our title is "Art and Watercolors - The Palette of Judy Thorley".
    In the context which you quoted us, we mean, what key phrase folks WILL USE to find your Web Page and not what key phrases you HOPE they will use. There is a big difference and depending on what keyword phrases are more popular on which ones you should use and optimize your pages for.

    For example ... here are the recent Spellweb results for your two keyword phrases of ...

    Art and Watercolors

    ... and ...

    The Palette of Judy Thorley


    77 votes for art and watercolors
    2 votes for the palette of judy thorley

    So these results show that your keyword phrase of ... the palette of judy thorley ... is hardly worth the effort to list as a keyword phrase. You would do better (just barely though) to just list judy thorley and worse to list palette judy thorley as evidenced by the results below.

    0 votes for palette judy thorley
    8 votes for judy thorley

    Also here are the Google Results ...

    NOT found in the top 10 results
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...nd+watercolors

    #1
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...f+judy+thorley

    #1
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...q=judy+thorley

    As you can clearly see from the results above that the keyword phrase of 'art and watercolors' gets more searches from folks than does 'the palette of judy thorley' ... although the latter ranks #1 on Google and the former is not even found in the top ten.

    It would probably be better for search engines if the Title was "Watercolor art by Judy Thorley floral landscape abstract life an artist from Canada".
    We disagree. If you want to rank highest for the keyword phrase ... 'watercolor art' ... which is a much MORE serached for term than what you have now ... 'art and watercolors'

    3,602 votes for watercolor art
    77 votes for art and watercolors

    Therefore, we would advise you to optimize for the keyword phrase ... 'watercolor art' ... so your title and meta tags should look like this ...

    Change this ...

    <title>Art and Watercolors - The Palette of Judy Thorley</title>

    ... to this ...

    <title>Watercolor Art</title>


    And Change this ...

    <meta name="keywords" content="artist, artists, art, watercolor, watercolour, watercolors, watercolours, paintings, Ontario, Canada, painting, landscape, floral, florals, seascape, seascapes, visual, arts, gallery, galleries, aquarelle, arches, artbyjudy, Winsor, Newton, print, monoprint,watercolor art,">

    ... to this ...

    <meta name="keywords" content="watercolor art">

    I read somewhere that some search engines ignor anthing after the first 7 words in the title, is that correct?
    Well, in a word, NO ... I would not put it in those words. Here is how I would word it.

    A safe assumption is that most Search Engines will only index up to 128 characters in the Title Tag and if they accept and index Keywords Meta Tags only up to 256 characters.

    But keep in mind that the ...

    #1 MOST important part of your Web Page in determining your rank/position on the Search Engines (in general) is the keyword density (usually from 5%-7%) in the FIRST 250 words of your Body Tag

    #2 is the keyword desity in the remaining text of your page and

    #3 is your Title Tag

    #4 are your Header Tags ... i.e. <h1>Watercolor Art</h1>

    #5 and LAST is the Keywords Meta Tags

    Then if all other things are equal, the Page/Site with the MOST VALUED INBOUND LINKS (link popularity) will rank higher.

    Please NOTE, and don't make the same mistake that many do in believing that the Keywords Meta Tags carry more weight than they do. In fact most Search Engines don't even use them.

    So we suggest you ONLY include your keyword phrase and that's it. Any more than that will hurt your ranking. Most don't even know this. Don't use all the 256 characters and load up on word after word, just choose like up to 7 or so.

    For a more illustrated and detailed explanation of this, please see our other posts, HERE and HERE

    Are you penalized for grammer ie: it would read better in a different order and with commas etc. but that could make it longer.
    You are not penalized for grammer. But your are penalized for using too many words, that is to say, if you want to rank highest for the word 'art', then by looking at your current tag, we see this ...

    <meta name="keywords" content="artist, artists, art, watercolor, watercolour, watercolors, watercolours, paintings, Ontario, Canada, painting, landscape, floral, florals, seascape, seascapes, visual, arts, gallery, galleries, aquarelle, arches, artbyjudy, Winsor, Newton, print, monoprint,watercolor art,">

    Now, you have a total of 273 characters (29 words), so more than likely on most Search Engines who only index 256 characters, the second occurance of the word 'art' will not be counted against you. That is the good part. The bad part is that 'art' is 1 of 29 words or it has a keyword density of 3.5% ... If you put the word 'art' in the first position you will have a higher rank and if you remove all the other words you will rank higher still, that is why we suggest the following ...

    <meta name="keywords" content="watercolor art">

    With that Tag you have a keyword density of 50% and not just 3.5%, so you will rank higher for the keyword 'art' ... since you have already discovered that by using all the words you do now, none of the really popular keyword phrases rank you in the top ten.

    Then another thing we see that WILL and IS working against you in attaining a higher ranking is the layout of your page. You see, a Search Engine spider will read your text from top to bottom and from left to right. That means that the first 250 (or so) words immediately after the Body Tag is the MOST important real estate on the whole entire page. You are making the same mistake that most others do, and that is to place your navigation links and such there. What you should have there is your Heading Tags ... i.e. <h1>Watercolor Art</h1> and your keyword phrase listed at least twice but no more than 3 times.

    There is an easy workaround for that. All you do is use a specifically designed table layout. It will allow your 'main text' to be listed/spidered BEFORE your navigation links, and the navigation links will still appear on the left side of your page.

    To read more about this 'TABLE TRICK' ... CLICK HERE
    Last edited by Sharon & Roy; Apr 16, 2001 at 08:43.
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  9. #9
    SitePoint Addict gthorley's Avatar
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    Sharon and Roy - I really appreciate the time you have spent in your replies.

    I am redoing our index page using your tables trick and it is easier than I thought it would be to move things over.

    One interesting thing that I noticed after reading your reply was somehow I had made the Title art and watercolors in the properties title when the actual title is the preferred Watercolor art.

    I think I understand what you are saying about just using watercolor art for the title and meta keywords but I believe that would eliminate a lot of search keywords which get used for artist sites which are floral, landscape, gallery

    What is the best way to get these other words to bring the site up if someone searchs for say floral watercolors or landscape watercolors

    What about this tag <meta name="description" content="A watercolor art gallery of floral, landscape and other artistic subjects by Judy Thorley a watercolour artist from Ontario, Canada"> ? On netscape we get ranked no 1 for the following search watercolor art canada http://search.netscape.com/cgi-bin/s...=on&cp=ntserch and this seems to be because Netscape has used description tag. Do other SE's use this? Maybe none of them use this as I probably entered this description when I first submited the url to specfic search directories.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Enthusiast Sharon & Roy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gthorley
    Sharon and Roy - I really appreciate the time you have spent in your replies.
    gthorley, Thanks for saying so, and you are most welcome!

    I think I understand what you are saying about just using watercolor art for the title and meta keywords but I believe that would eliminate a lot of search keywords which get used for artist sites which are floral, landscape, gallery
    gthorley, Please don't take this the wrong way, but you do not understand what we have been saying, or maybe I have not put it in the right words. So let me do that now.

    #1 Less is More ... (use a single keyword phrase, usually up to seven words in the Title Tag, Keywords Meta Tag, Heading Tag and 2 or 3 times in the first 250 (or so) words in the area immediately following the Body Tag.

    i.e. (vanilla fudge ripple ice cream cone)

    #2 That's It.

    Now if you want to be found for other keyword phrases, then create NEW pages for them and repeat step #1.

    i.e. (yummy dessert recipes holidays all-occassions) <-- Create NEW Page for this keyword phrase

    i.e. (pinapple upside-down cake) <-- Create NEW Page for this keyword phrase

    i.e. (desserts for pets from the fridge) <-- Create NEW Page for this keyword phrase

    etc., etc., etc.

    See what we mean? For every keyword phrase, use a new Web Page.

    A very common design/marketing mistake that folks make is to load their entire product line into a single Web Page or even a few, but the key is to use one page per product.

    NOTE: You cannot realistically expect to load up on several keyword phrases for ONE page and still expect to rank high for them all. The reason is that the more you add the lower your ranking will be. Remember ... LESS is MORE

    What is the best way to get these other words to bring the site up if someone searchs for say floral watercolors or landscape watercolors
    See Above <WINK>

    What about this tag <meta name="description" content="A watercolor art gallery of floral, landscape and other artistic subjects by Judy Thorley a watercolour artist from Ontario, Canada"> ?
    Your Description Tag should be JUST THAT, descriptive! Create a compelling and informative paragraph that will grab the reader into clicking your link before any of the others. Search Engines don't give any 'weight to this tag and even if they do it is very little and will not matter much in the overall optimization of your Web Page.

    On netscape we get ranked no 1 for the following search watercolor art canada http://search.netscape.com/cgi-bin/s...=on&cp=ntserch and this seems to be because Netscape has used description tag.
    The URL that you refer to is NOT pulling the results from a Spidered Database a.k.a. Search Engine, but from a Directory (Human Edited Database), Open Directory Project to be exact.

    Therefore, yes, the search results would be pulling keywords from the Only source it has indexed on your page, which is the Title, Desciption and URL text.


    Do other SE's use this? Maybe none of them use this as I probably entered this description when I first submited the url to specfic search directories.
    Again, here you are assuming that the Netscape Results are from a Search Engine, which they are NOT. Again the Description Tag carries very, very little weight and with most Search Engines none to make a difference. Use your keywords in this tag but write something compelling, not just a bunch of keywords thrown together. Here, grammer matters! Not for the SE though, but for the folks who will read your description. It has to make them WANT to click on it to be of any value. Let me ask you, what good will it do if you rank #1 with your keyword phrase, but your desciption is so poorly written that folks just skip over your link without ever clicking on it?

    Just like a finely tuned automoblie engine, ALL parts must work together for maximum production.
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