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  1. #26
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    Well, I hate to make this about FF, but let's have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Those issues in the link you gave, are not all FF4 related, as many of those issues are present in 3.5 also
    TRY IT, most of the "issues" listed on that page are NOT present when using it on 3.5 or earlier!!! If they didn't, they probably wouldn't be listed on the "issues" page -- or as it should be called "the stuff that USED TO WORK" page.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Opera can't tell you don't bloody want the Speed dial or some other default tab to be opened as well when you open a page "Open with Opera" way.
    Huh?!? You can customize the default page to anything you want -- what are you even on about?!? Tools > Preferences > General, the "startup" and "homepage" fields.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    You complain FF lets you use so many extensions it freezes. Well, I merely use 3 or 4. That's about as many as you can find for Opera.
    No, I'm not saying it "lets you", I'm saying that you pretty much HAVE TO to even get BASIC FUNCTIONALITY out of it -- which just adds to it's EXISTING instability! Even vanilla I could crash 2.0 in less than 20 minutes without even trying, and so far 4.0 seems to be a buggy unstable repeat of that.

    While I need no extensions in Opera, because everything I want out of it is pretty much built in. Flip navigation, drag and drop favicons, user javascript, user CSS, start bar, user customizable launch buttons -- and even things I've come to consider normal functionality you can't even FIND in outer browsers like portrait mode tabs.

    It's why for me FF, IE9, Safari and Chrome are like a trip in the wayback machine to IE3 so far as the user interface is concerned! IE9's getting worse than any of them in that regard too - it's like every other browser maker is moving backwards; Must go with HTML5 being a monster step backwards too or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Yous should learn JS not for the reason of not using jQuery, but for the reason of customizing and improving your own version of jQuery. Programming is about productivity. Building from the ground up each and every time is not productive. Using libraries is the way to go.
    If you have enough scripting for "building from the ground up" to qualify as a complaint -- you are probably using too much javascript on your page for stupid annoying garbage.

    Javascript is an interpreted language, so giant function libraries are the equivalent of a static fortification; a monument to the stupidity of mankind.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    jQuery is a community effort and hard work. Respect that. jQuery's code can be contributed. Don't stand on the side lines complaining, contribute if you think you can make it better.
    Or just don't use it as it's a completely unnecessary waste of time, bandwidth and effort for things that either shouldn't be done on a website in the first place, or can be done faster/simpler/easier without it.

  2. #27
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    Sun Tzu said "Know your enemy".

    You need to do that.


    First off, Opera's default page is a bug. A serious PITA bug.

    When I right click a html document and choose "Open with Opera" it will display two tabs, instead of just one, as any other good browser does: one for the Speed dial, or whatever page you choose from the General -> Startup/Homepage options, and finally, one for the html document I want to open in Opera.



    FF4 "seems to be a buggy unstable repeat of that" is laughable at best. Seems does not equal Proof. You need solid proof in order to be able to end your attack at FF4 with something like this: "are like a trip in the wayback machine to IE3".

    Which is by far not true, since Opera is the one pretty much bloated with everything you never wanted, every step of the menus, tabs, option bars, status bars etcetera.


    As far as jQuery (not Jquery; remember, "Know your enemy") being a GIANT library, it's another stretch, ds60 style. Like, when you boldly categorize code you don't even know as being "stupid annoying garbage".


    And yes, use it if it means reusability and productivity. Too bad you deny it's of use. Denial doesn't prove a thing. You should "Know your enemy" better, again.

    You should be able to see the good parts too, if you were to be truly cool headed and well intended. It's used because it offers cross browser support. The biggest gain. Which is not animations, as you try to trivialize it.

    And it offers a richer UI. Another thing that's a big gain for usability.

    And it offers a community effort to cut down the time you spend trying to find what others have already found out: JS engines in UAs nowadays are far far far....far better then what you seem to think. Libraries = Reusability = Productivity.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Sun Tzu said "Know your enemy".
    Funny, I was about to say the same -- marvelous how two people can look at the same things and come up with entirely different conclusions, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    When I right click a html document and choose "Open with Opera" it will display two tabs, instead of just one, as any other good browser does
    Funny, for me it displays ten, the ones I left open when I closed it last... which to borrow from Mozilla is a feature, not a bug. Hang on, let me actually close all the tabs, something I almost never do... Impossible, I can't close it with no tabs showing... Aha, so you're closing all your tabs and then wondering why it's "restart where you left off" is restarting where you left off? That's a good laugh.

    Of course, I rarely close my primary browser, use my primary browser to launch pages in other browsers while testing, don't tend to close all my tabs when I shut the browser down so I can continue where I left off -- so I never even notice that behavior.

    The difference in our usage habits leading to radically different perspectives on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    FF4 "seems to be a buggy unstable repeat of that" is laughable at best. Seems does not equal Proof. You need solid proof in order to be able to end your attack at FF4 with something like this: "are like a trip in the wayback machine to IE3".
    Out of the box, does it HAVE any MODERN browser functionality? Flip navigation? Gestures? Positionable tabs? No... that's a trip with Mr. Peabody to me. Same problem I have with Safari and IE9, the user interfaces are a rinky outdated joke... Though at least unlike Safari with FF there's the choice to TRY and change it... though really it seems like all the browser makers except Opera are either in copypasta mode, or backpedalling on the UI functionality to 1997!

    As to buggy/unstable proof -- it going to 100% cpu core and my having to kill it because it's "not responding" in three major OS is all the proof I need of it being a buggy unstable mess -- and again it appears to be EXACTLY the problem I had with 2.x

    Remember this from 1.x and 2.x?

    It's BAAAAACCK!

    With the only tab open being google and it never EVER finishing whatever the devil it was doing? I once let it sit there for 40+ hours just to see if it did anything. If it wasn't for the fact I'm on a multi-core system, FF4's current "off to never never land" behavior would lock up the system completely.

    I was actually surprised given what a train wreck FF was prior to 3.0 that it became as popular as it did -- it was completely unusable for me having to kill it every 20 minutes like clockwork -- which is WHY I wouldn't even have had that trash installed if not for browser testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Which is by far not true, since Opera is the one pretty much bloated with everything you never wanted, every step of the menus, tabs, option bars, status bars etcetera.
    Bloat huh, so why is it able to include all that AND a robust mail client and still be the same size or smaller than it's competition? That's not bloat -- that's good coding.

    How big is that oversized pig known as Thunderbird again? Lands sake firefox doesn't even DO anything out of box more than wrap the renderer in a 1998 level UI functionality, and has what, a 12 megabyte download?

    Bloat, thy name is Mozilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    As far as jQuery (not Jquery; remember, "Know your enemy") being a GIANT library, it's another stretch, ds60 style. Like, when you boldly categorize code you don't even know as being "stupid annoying garbage".
    I actually know enough jquery to say it's garbage -- I have this NASTY habit of not badmouthing things until I give them a try -- and it's pointless rubbish that results in bloated cryptic code. Most of my experience with it has been stripping it OUT of people's websites for things that CSS can do better with no code, or stuff that was contributing to the sites in question's bounce rate.

    I have yet to see a site using jquery for anything meaningful, useful, or that should even be done on a website in the first blasted place. It's made worse by people now using it to do CSS' job, server side scripts job, or simple things that end up being 20k of code before you even talk the size of the linked library, that could have been done as 4k WITHOUT IT. (just peruse anything jquery related on dynamic drive for proof of that)

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Too bad you deny it's of use. Denial doesn't prove a thing. You should "Know your enemy" better, again.
    Show me a site that uses it for something MEANINGFUL... I've NEVER seen one.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    It's used because it offers cross browser support. The biggest gain. Which is not animations, as you try to trivialize it.
    Which I still don't entirely get -- the ajax wrapping is cute, but single function that usually I'd have to rewrite ANYWAYS to get the proper handling on it... Element loaders are cute, but if you need that many of them you are likely using script for something you shouldn't be wasting your time trying to do in the first place...

    Waste of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    And it offers a richer UI. Another thing that's a big gain for usability.
    ... and again I've never seen anything out of jquery that didn't GET IN THE WAY of the user experience.

    In the majority of cases it's either "Scripting for nothing", "scripting to cover coding ineptitude" or "scripting for 'gee ain't it neat' animooted nonsense"

    Jquery is a BLIGHT upon the Internet flushing thousands of potentially useful websites right down the accessibility, usability and functionality toilet!.

    Hell, even the main page for jquery is a broken bloated mess leaving you asking "266k in 34 files for THAT?!?"

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    Funny, for me it displays ten, the ones I left open when I closed it last... which to borrow from Mozilla is a feature, not a bug. Hang on, let me actually close all the tabs, something I almost never do... Impossible, I can't close it with no tabs showing... Aha, so you're closing all your tabs and then wondering why it's "restart where you left off" is restarting where you left off? That's a good laugh.

    No, not quite so. I'm not choosing from the Startup "Continue from last time" and I wish I didn't have to choose any other crappy options in that list. (You seem to know less about Opera customization then me?!)

    But I can't, 'cos Opera thinks I need a Startup absolutely. The only laugh is from Opera in the face of its users, which makes it for the 2% it has.

    The place Op has is by merit alone. Again, it's not a conspiracy, it's just the way it is: Opera is crappy, unintuitive, bloated.





    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    As to buggy/unstable proof -- it going to 100% cpu core and my having to kill it because it's "not responding" in three major OS is all the proof I need of it being a buggy unstable mess -- and again it appears to be EXACTLY the problem I had with 2.x

    With the only tab open being google and it never EVER finishing whatever the devil it was doing? I once let it sit there for 40+ hours just to see if it did anything. If it wasn't for the fact I'm on a multi-core system, FF4's current "off to never never land" behavior would lock up the system completely.

    This is my proof: FF4 going with 9 tabs, as oppossed to Op 11.01 1190 with JUST ONE TAB!!!

    Nothing unusual about the web page in the tab, just a little common JS slideshow somewhere in it. And it's not that JS code fault, believe me!

    And Op is the only browser chocking with these slideshows, lagging and never quite getting to display them properly. A little down for the "fastest JS engine", don't you think? When FF4 doesn't even blinks when properly displays that page. And so is IE8, IE9. And so does Saf 5.03. And so does Ch 11. ONLY OPERA BLOCKS THE PAGE INDEFINITELY!

    And it's not "Look how I can block Opera" kind of page. It's a normal page.





    The rest of your views are way over board for me to even try. They lack the balance between good parts and bad parts:


    "I have yet to see a site using jquery for anything meaningful, useful, or that should even be done on a website in the first blasted place."

    "... and again I've never seen anything out of jquery that didn't GET IN THE WAY of the user experience."




    The reality is the one fighting you, not me:

    Opera is at the bottom, no matter how much you try to make it look like it's a diamond in the mud, it's still just a kid playing. And this before you start talking about HTML5/Fred and CSS3!

    jQuery is successful despite you trying to point to some anonymous bad uses to paint it all black. I've also seen some atrociously written HTML strict pages, hell, even XHTML strict pages, but that doesn't say HTML and XHTML strict specs are "a BLIGHT upon the Internet".

  5. #30
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    Would you care to link to that "one page with just a slideshow?"

    NOT that I think slideshows should be on websites in the first place.

    Really I think it comes down to a differing opinion on what bloat means. Of course, did you notice that Firefox even reports physically impossible memory sizes now? Oh you missed that since version 3.0 it incorrectly reports it's memory usage to windows because it's no longer all stored in private memory?

    Check it, simple to look for. Open a 1280x800ish jpeg and watch FF's memory use from a clean startup. If it goes up LESS than a 4 megabytes, it's incorrectly reporting it's usage by hiding it in unreported processes. This is another of the 'tricks' they've been using to look better than they are... or at least something it's fanboys constantly miss.

    Which you can check in Process Explorer... where an examination will show that it's "virtual" memory use is around 200 megs when it is only showing the "private" memory use under the normal task manager.

    Clean start Opera and FF with just... eh, let's use this image:
    http://battletech.hopto.org/images/samplePage.jpg

    Firefox:

    Task Manager
    Memory (private working set) - 27,864 bytes.

    Process Explorer
    Private Bytes - 31,644 bytes
    Virtual - 164,664 bytes

    Opera:

    Task Manager
    Memory (private working set) - 92,484 bytes

    Process Explorer
    Private Bytes - 95,720 bytes
    Virtual - 104,516 bytes

    Who's using more memory again? Honestly, they're about the SAME! Also though, flush your history as opera pre-loads it's allocation of history/cache during startup, while FF does not. In fact, 40 megs of that private bytes IS opera's cache, which is done so that the caching can be handled faster. (private is faster than virtual)

    The memory reported in task manager is just the private working set information... basically code + heap. Virtual bytes is more like a stack. FF uses the stack more, Opera uses the heap more and allocates a larger heap. (though you probably don't know old-school memory management where those terms applied... ah the days when you could hard-code heap and stack limits during linking)

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    (though you probably don't know old-school memory management where those terms applied... ah the days when you could hard-code heap and stack limits during linking)
    Just to spite you, I went to Computer Science Faculty between 1992 and 1997!



    Let's agree you're a fanboy for Opera, while I'm a normal user for FireFox. A slideshow will always have a place right there where there's a need for one. Again, denying doesn't change the facts. Pick any page with a slideshow that has user controls, don't let me point you at one so you can have "reveal reasons" on why and how.

    Just so you know, I wouldn't mind using Op more than FF in the future, if Op would somehow appeal more to me. Like I switched from Ch to FF. It's all about a browser proving it self, it's not about fanboys banging heads.

    Like there is the case for jQuery. If it proves useful for 2% of the web devs, and the web pages using it are successfully loaded on 2% of the machines, it has the right to exist, much like Opera exists. And so is the case for HTML5/Fred and CSS3.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Let's agree you're a fanboy for Opera, while I'm a normal user for FireFox.
    No, Opera has plenty of faults too -- you're just going after it for the wrong ones

    It just happens to have a bunch of UI elements I've not only grown accustomed to but actually expect and am disappointed when I can't find them or even work-alike extensions in anything else.

    I'd kill for Opera's UI... or at least what Opera ends up with for a UI by the time I'm done customizing it (since out of box I don't like it all that much either)-- with webkit as the renderer.

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Just so you know, I wouldn't mind using Op more than FF in the future, if Op would somehow appeal more to me.
    Have you tried flip navigation? Usually you can get that on FF with the same extensions that give you gestures (though I turn gestures off)... Some people call it rocker navigation.

    Drag and drop of favicons from the address bar to any toolbar for a instant quick-launch?

    http://battletech.hopto.org/images/myOpera.jpg

    pic from three years ago, but not many changes on my current install. Hold on, let's do one of the current install:

    http://www.cutcodedown.com/images/myOpera2011.jpg

    Notice the custom favicons for more frequently accessed sites? The ones to launch the current page in another browser? The ones to send the current page for CSS or RSS validation? See the two close buttons -- Drag and drop from nontroppo -- "close current tab and go to previous" and "close current tab and go to next" -- makes tab navigation/control faster/simpler letting me get rid of wasting space on every tab with a close box... Tabs to one side in portrait lets me see their full titles for easier navigation, (also showing how superior vBull and SMF are compared to phpBB in that department), the simple panels pane on the left for easy access to those...

    Tabs across the top -- much like a taskbar as a stripe across the top/bottom has ALWAYS struck me as USELESS -- with so many websites and documents relying more on height than width, why not put the extra unused width on widescreen displays to work for you?

    I also axe the stupid "search bars" since I can call a custom search in the address bar by simply prepending the letter of the engine I want to use. "a objective c" will search amazon for "objective c", "g tandy 1000" will google "tandy 1000", etc, etc... so why waste screen space on something the address bar can already do. It's this level of customization that makes me choose Opera over other browsers -- To be honest their "fancy skins" make my skin crawl which is why I set it back to "native" and out of box I'm not wild about a lot of the default UI elements. If I could get all of that working in Chrome I'd switch in a heartbeat. If I could get a STABLE version of Firefox where I could have all that, I'd give it a serious look.

    Well, that and I also use M2, it's built in mail client.

    If you don't customize your browser a whole lot, I can understand how you might miss the point of Opera or what I'm talking about with other browsers being like a trip as "his boy Sherman"...

    Quote Originally Posted by noonnope View Post
    Like there is the case for jQuery. If it proves useful for 2% of the web devs, and the web pages using it are successfully loaded on 2% of the machines, it has the right to exist, much like Opera exists. And so is the case for HTML5/Fred and CSS3.
    I'm just sick of website after website I no longer have any interest in even visiting and developer after developer effectively kicking themselves square between the legs all thanks to jquery. There may actually be a practical use for it, but I've never seen one.

    Again, care to link to a site using it that isn't trash? Or more specifically, wouldn't be better without it? Literally, I've never seen one!

  8. #33
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    Don't make me get the hose to you two.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Max View Post
    Don't make me get the hose to you two.
    <Georg Festrunk>Hosed? Count me in...</Georg Festrunk>

    Though yes, a wee bit heavy on the thread drift.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathshadow60 View Post
    If you don't customize your browser a whole lot, I can understand how you might miss the point of [...]
    This probably is the general conclusion. But it goes both ways.



    You said "I'm just sick of website after website I no longer have any interest in even visiting". Well, since you point the finger to jQuery and FireFox, let's take a look at Opera on the web.


    Opera Home Page is far from being a good, properly coded web page, by your very own standards. If I was to take the same approach you did with jQuery's Home Page, I could easily say "is a broken bloated mess".


    Here are a few observations:

    Opera Home Page uses jQuery.

    Opera Home Page uses a CSS grid. What's that saying about their web dev expertise?

    Opera Home Page uses a font-size: 12px; for body.



    Now, how can I value a browser made by people who are telling me these things are OK? How can you? I think I have an answer to that.

    You are probably valuing Opera for all the wrong reasons.

    And you probably despise FF, jQuery, HTML5/Fred, CSS 3 for all the wrong reasons too. Despite your observations, some of them being fairly legitimate, if they wouldn't prove to be useful, they all be dead. It's not like somebody is pushing them down web devs and users throat.

  11. #36
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    Without continuing the drift (too late) -- I've complained about that on the Opera forums many MANY times -- It's always bothered me that one of the browsers with the best in accessibility and standards promotion has a website that's an accessibility /FAIL/ and is so poorly coded.

    Which is why I stopped going there except for the blog system, which I'm really only on because I've used it longer than I understood how such things work. (>6 years)

    Well, that and I make blog entries what, once every three months?

    Really I wouldn't say "the wrong reasons" -- we just have different experiences and different needs -- FF doesn't meet mine, apparently Opera doesn't meet yours. As I said it's fascinating how two people can look at the same thing and come away with the exact opposite conclusions.

    Which is a good thing -- again if everyone is thinking the same, somebody isn't thinking.


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