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  1. #101
    Custom User Text tonyskyday's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by megamanXplosion
    btw Tony, there's a shortcut to do zooming in both FireFox and Opera. Hold Ctrl then use the middle mouse wheel. I find that it's much faster to find the preferred setting this way
    Yeah, I have a tendency to accidentally decrease text size when I get a little overzealous with the ctrl key. It bugs me that firefox only has increase text size and decrease text size, and no setting for "default" or the such.

    With Opera, not only is everything resized (which is a better approach as you mentioned for several reasons) but it is very easy to tell what your settings are vs. what the web site designer intended.

    Hmm, maybe I will pick Opera back up, at least to have around...

    When is 7.5 expected to be officially "stable"?

  2. #102
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    No clue, it's not even in the beta stages yet, it's basically just a preview of where Opera is going

  3. #103
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    I'll give you a reason NOT to switch. I use avant browser and it runs on about 25Mb of RAM whereas Firefox eats up nearly 30Mb of RAM. I'm a performance nut, so that's pretty important to me. (I know I'm supposed to be convincing you to switch, but I just want you to be informed! )
    Former atheist turned Believer in Jesus Christ on 02-23-00.
    (and NO it wasn't "Ten Easy Steps!")

    Join the PHP community!

  4. #104
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    RAM is there to be used, not protected. I get frustrated when I have 512mb of RAM and an application is only using 5mb and showing a progress bar going slowly. I'd prefer it to take 50mb and get the job done quickly and free the memory. What's the point in buying a 120gb HD if you're only going to use 20gb of it? What's the point in buying 512mb of ram if you'll only let your comp use 128mb of it? What's the point in having 4 USB ports if you're only going to use 1?

  5. #105
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkaiser
    I'll give you a reason NOT to switch. I use avant browser and it runs on about 25Mb of RAM whereas Firefox eats up nearly 30Mb of RAM. I'm a performance nut, so that's pretty important to me. (I know I'm supposed to be convincing you to switch, but I just want you to be informed! :) )
    5mb is next-to nothing. Most computers have 512mb ram or more now, and it's there for a reason. "Performance-wise", it doesn't matter unless you have 128 mb ram and a lot of other programs up. Use firefox or opera :)

  6. #106
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Firefox and ASP.NET's client-side validation scripts do not get along.

    This is one of those functional failings I mentioned, which actually comes before Windows/Office Update.

    I regret to say that I may be an Internet Explorer user again by the weekend, because I can't check to see if a site uses ASP.NET all the time, and I hate having to wait for the page to reload for validation.

    Trust me: I am convinced in theory, but things don't always work out in practice. If it weren't for this, it woudl be Firefox all the way.

    And no, don't tell me to use the View in IE extension. If a browser can't handle my everyday, supercritical tasks, it won't be used.

    My apologies.
    Last edited by cfm; Mar 26, 2004 at 06:12. Reason: Edited for clarity.

  7. #107
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkaiser
    I'll give you a reason NOT to switch. I use avant browser and it runs on about 25Mb of RAM whereas Firefox eats up nearly 30Mb of RAM. I'm a performance nut, so that's pretty important to me. (I know I'm supposed to be convincing you to switch, but I just want you to be informed! )
    The reason IE (and shells above IE) look so "lean" is because part of the memory/CPU power is being used from other Windows processes, so in all actuality AvantBrowser is probably using more than Firefox's 30MB of RAM in total.
    Quote Originally Posted by compuwhiz7
    Firefox and ASP.NET's client-side validation scripts do not get along.
    Fix your machine.config file then. While you're in there, fix it for Opera too .

  8. #108
    SitePoint Addict caser85's Avatar
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    I like Firefox, but for some reason under my profile on this computer with XP, Firefox doesn't work. It doesn't really start up but shows up as a running process. Do any of you guys know how to fix this?

  9. #109
    SitePoint Zealot moagw's Avatar
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    Funny

    I think it is funny that about a decade ago, most people just wanted a computer and to be able to SEE the web. Now we have a couple guys that cooled off now, but could slug it out over goofy abilities of one browser over another. Mouse gestures, zooming.. etc. I don't think I am outta line when I say, BIG DEAL. "I need to go back in history 5 pages, and I don't wanna click this and that and hold my mouth open.." Unless you are totally amazing, try the BACK button. I love being on the web and developing pages and sites for businesses and friends, but where does this whole "super-user" come in? I am good at work with a fast connection but at home I am on dialup (no bb in my area), and I can't seem to figure out why user x is just an "ordinary user" and user y is a "super user, or power user". All the basics are the same, so where is the hostility and one-ups-manship. I have IE, FF, and Opera on my PC, and I use mostly IE and FF. I glanced through opera cause I hear the hype, but it turns out to only be hype. WONDERFUL, AMAZING.. yeah, but so were IE and FF. (maybe a little less amazing and wonderful on IE, ) . I PERSONALLY (please don't hurt me opera guys) find opera to be the least user friendly. I don't really care for the "child window" thing, and I wonder cause I don't KNOW. Megaman said the child windows were more POWERFUL. Can you explain it to a self professed, and assuredly not alone, regular user? I don't know what it takes to be a power user, but whatever it is, I don't want it.

  10. #110
    SitePoint Member tswone's Avatar
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    use both

    why does it need to be one or the other? just use them both, it is not like either cost you anything.

    -T

  11. #111
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    I can only assume that you were referring to me when you said 'now we have a couple guys that cooled off now'. I think it was more of a debate than it was an argument. We weren't yelling at eachother, making personal attacks, just showing eachother our own opinions/facts

    About the shortcut to go back in history using the mouse, it's incredibly useful. I gaurantee that I can go back in history 5 pages faster than you can, for the simple fact that I don't need to move the mouse at all. This is even more useful if you're using a wireless mouse and the controls get "jittery" because you don't need to move it, just click. Not to mention that people with motor disabilities such as carpel tunnel syndrome, burnt hands, broken arm, etc., it can be painful to constantly move their mouse around just to go back/forward. It's all about usability and accessibility

    Super users are those who know the more advanced features in a program. Like you said yourself, the basics are the same, but when you look under the hood it is a totally different beast. Power Users are those that have learned to use the beast, while normal users have only domesticated the beast. Take Opera for example, a normal user will probably sit there staring at a web page for a few minutes to figure out what are text-links on a badly designed web site, a power-user will press Ctrl+J, then just look through the list of links that are supplied to you in a selection list, that's the kind of situations when the average-user has learnt how to use the beast and become a power-user

    As for your comments about Opera, if you've only taken a glance then it's no suprise that you think it's nothing more than hype. Use it for a couple of weeks, you'll start to think differently. I would also like to point out that Opera is user-friendly, it just has a higher learning curve than the other browsers. It may take a couple of extra hours to get used to all of the features, learn the ins and outs, but once you have your productivity will increase exponentially compared to other browsers

    I use Opera for just about everything. If I see a useful tip posted on forums I can just select the text then Ctrl+Shift+C and copy it to my notes panel, then I can later read the text I've selected in my notes panel and double-click on the note-title to bring me to the page where I got the note from, basically they are power-bookmarks. I also use Opera's news aggregator to keep me up-to-date on over 20 web sites without having to browse each one individually. No need for an external IRC client to talk to a customer or friend, Ctrl+Alt+J and open the IRC client. Now, I'm getting updated about 20 websites within 10 minutes what would take an hour, I can make notes/bookmarks about anything I find useful, Ctrl+E to start composing an email (for example, sending a note to a friend, rightclick->insert note->note) and chat with customers/friends, all at the same time. Try doing that with any other browser

    As for the child-windows, they are indeed more powerful. I'm sure you can relate here since you said that you design web sites. Picture this, you open a child-window with the original document, then another child-window for the document you're currently working on. Of course, you'll probably want to look back and forth between the two to make sure that you're heading in the right direction. You could hit Shift+F6 and it'll tile the 2 child-windows vertically next to each other, so you can compare documents/references/tutorials without having to switch child-windows/tabs all the time. The MDI interface that Opera has also allows even more functionality than that, for example, you start downloading a bunch of files, you can grab the transfer-window's tab and pull it off of the application and into it's own window, then you can just look at your taskbar to check on your download progress while retaining space for more tabs in Opera. Another time-saver that I use often is that if I want to close all of the windows except one or two (I usually have about 15 open), I just drag the two child-windows right off of Opera and into their own windows, then in the main Opera window (the one with the tabs) I hit Ctrl+Alt+W and close all of those windows then drag the child-windows back onto the application. I avoided having to close 13 windows individually. Although this doesn't exactly relate to the MDI interface, it is unique in Opera (as far as I know) and it's a huge time-saver, they're called Sessions (in developer terms, you could call them projects or workspaces). You can open up you favorite 10 sites, File->Sessions->Save Session, then you can just choose that session and open all 10 sites at the same time. I use this a LOT. I have a session for forums I frequently visit, a session for web design article/tutorial sites, a session each for when I want to work on a project for myself or a client, etc. This saves a huge amount of time

    I could keep on going as for the reasons I love using Opera. It has a high learning curve, that I'll admit, but to say it isn't user-friendly is like saying SitePoint doesn't have articles about Web Design

  12. #112
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy redemption's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megamanXplosion
    I would also like to point out that Opera is user-friendly, it just has a higher learning curve than the other browsers. It may take a couple of extra hours to get used to all of the features, learn the ins and outs, but once you have your productivity will increase exponentially compared to other browsers

    ...

    I could keep on going as for the reasons I love using Opera. It has a high learning curve, that I'll admit, but to say it isn't user-friendly is like saying SitePoint doesn't have articles about Web Design
    I think you're contradicting yourself. A piece of software with a high learning curve shouldn't rightly be considered user-friendly.

    Me, I find Opera quite good in terms of user friendliness, but it definitely is a power user browser because I get overwhelmed by the amount of options. Other than that, I've largely no disagreements about what has been said about Opera either. Opera or Firefox, take your pick. Just ditch IE unless you definitely have to use it, or on occasions when you have to (like Windows Update as was mentioned earlier).

    I also like the MDI interface a lot - megamanXplosion, just curious, is there a way to turn it off (so that it behaves a la firefox)?

  13. #113
    Extremists Beware! Rockrz's Avatar
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    What is "Tabbed Browsing"?

    And, my IE never crashes!
    .

  14. #114
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    Why couldn't it be titled as user-friendly even if it has a high learning curve? People consider cars user-friendly, but the first time that they get behind the wheel they break things. People consider Adobe Photoshop user-friendly even though it has a reasonably high learning curve. People consider Windows user-friendly even though it has a reasonably high learning curve (for most people, not necessarily for web designers, of course). User-Friendliness shouldn't involve how dumbed-down it is, it's how friendly it is when you know how to use it. That's just my opinion though.

    As for your question, I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you referring to having the tab-bar hide itself when there's only 1 tab open? If so, unfortunately it isn't (as far as I know). They have an option in 'customize toolbars' called 'show only when needed', but the logic of this option in relation to the tab-bar is illogical, because it thinks that if you have a one tab open then it's needed. I've been meaning to make a suggestion on their forums about this but totally forgot about it, thanks for the reminder

    edit: Add Your Support!

  15. #115
    SitePoint Zealot moagw's Avatar
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    Megaman, thanks for the info on the child window issue, and the power user issue. Now a question, or "riddle me this megaman".. Can't I do those same things you mentioned with the exception of putting two side by side in FF? I really don't find the incredible-ness of opera, and I want to, apparently I am "missing the boat". But it seems to be that there are lots (and I mean LOTS) of options in opera, but isnt' that comparable to a car having heated cupholders, and chilled cupholders? I mean sure their nice, but is there to you a line where you cross over from being a tool to being the incredibly bulky( not in terms of mb or anything though cause I never checked). I mean, do you think it looses in specialization or not. I like what you said about RSS/IRC, wicked cool bookmarks in a "notepad" and stuff, but now I am just wondering if all this is true and really nifty why do we not all NEED opera? I agree on some shortcomings from FF. I am not totally overwhelmed with the ap but I see small differences a la the "warmed cup holders". But you have made me dizzy with all the options opera has, I will once again use it. But a sidenote are all the "wicked-supercool" things you tell me in the freebie version?

  16. #116
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy redemption's Avatar
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    I meant to ask whether the MDI interface can be turned off so that it becomes like how tabbed browsing is with Firefox.

    (We agree to disagree on user-friendliness and high learning curves I shan't argue further to drag things OT.)

  17. #117
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    Nope, FireFox doesn't have this capability. The way FireFox works, is that it's only a tabsheet with the 'viewing port' (where you see the document) inside of each page of the tabsheet. For example, rightclick on your taskbar then choose 'properties' and look at the dialog that pops up, you'll see a tab-sheet with 2 tabs. That's how FireFox works. Opera, on the other hand, is a window which controls child-windows instead of pages in a tabsheet. This allows much more control, because they're actual windows and not unmovable tabsheet-pages. Just try dragging a tab in FireFox off of the application, won't work. FireFox also doesn't have a Windows menu. Another great thing about Opera, is that it keeps track of windows that you've closed, so if you accidentally closed one and you want it back, just go to Window->Closed->Document and it'll open the child-window for you, it even remembers what you typed into forms so you will not have to retype a long post on a message board, for example (I actually did that while making that post above hehe).

    As for opera having a ton of options, yes it does and it can be overwhelmingly difficult to grasp at first. But, once you've grasped how everything (you need/want to know) works, but once you have figured it out, you'll scrap your face off of the monitor and say "aaaah, options! I have OPTIONS!!!". That's one of the reasons people are fanatical about Opera, there's always a ton of ways (keyboard, mouse, interface, and soon speech!) to do the same task, it's fit to accomodate to the user, instead of the user accomodating the browser.

    Back to the car analogy, some people accomodate to their cars by putting hot coffee inbetween their legs and get burnt badly in their 'region' while they're driving causing big accidents, while other cars accomodate to the driver by putting in cup-holders so they can set their coffee down in a safe spot. Personally, I wouldn't buy a car if it didn't have a cup-holder, there's no way I'm going to put ice-cold Pepsi or burning hot coffee inbetween my legs while I'm hitting speed bumps or whipping around the curved roads going up big hills

    Why don't we not all NEED opera? I don't know, you tell me. I think that a lot of people pass opera off as a p.o.s just because it has an ad at the top right of the browser (why are people so fanatical about a small ad? It's not like it's going to be blinking red and yellow telling you that you've won, I use the Google Adsense ads and they are helpful to me and not annoying by any stretch of the word). A lot of people also just jump onto the band-wagon of what's popular instead of choosing the tool that works best for them, some people don't even know what Opera is. It's all unfortunately, I would love it if everyone used Opera

    And yes, they are in the free version. The ONLY difference between the free and paid version is the ad at the top right. It's only $40 to remove the ad which I don't think is terribly expensive, considering how much work and love the developers have put into it, I think they deserve it 200%.

  18. #118
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redemption
    (We agree to disagree on user-friendliness and high learning curves I shan't argue further to drag things OT.)
    I think that the only problem here is that you mean different things by user-frendlyness. Redemption seems to be talking about an intuitive interface, while megamanXplosion is talking about a "fast to use once you know how it works" interface.

    I'm going to take an example between IE5 and IE6 so that I don't stand on anyone's toes:

    Type in a web address in IE5, press enter, and you go to the site. This is a "fast to use once you know how it works" sort of thing. But, in IE6, MS added a "go" button, so you can type in the address you want to go to, and then click "go". This is more intuitive for people new to computers, they can just see the green arrow, read the word "Go" and not think any more about it.

    In the same way, Opera and Firebird are equally intuitive, but press Ctrl+B in Opera, scan through the list of shortcuts, you'll soon find it faster than Firbird. Factor in mouse gestures, MDI interface, etc, and you're away.

    An advantage of the MDI interface: all popup windows are contained inside the Opera parent window, so they always have tabs, so you can always close them, even if they are evil JS ones which try and stop you closing them.

    isnt' that comparable to a car having heated cupholders, and chilled cupholders?
    Probably, but what if you realllllly want a heated cup holder?

    Besides, the Opera download is 3.2 MB, while the Firefox download is 6.2 MB (and once you have it, you have to go around downloading extensions to make the tabs work, the mouse gestures, etc etc)

    Later,
    Douglas
    Hello World

  19. #119
    SitePoint Zealot moagw's Avatar
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    well the dragging kiddo window off of opera into its own window was cool.. so was the reopen closed windows ability. And I know FF doesn't have it and probably won't for a bit. I think you should have a mailing list about cool stuff for opera, cause I was impressed with those options. ( I would never really USE most, but the closed window one is a must now). I will leave you alone now megaman, but it is cool to know that after reading this thread ALL FREAKING DAY I now noticed you are in my state. So rare for me to find a KY resident online.. Good on ya!
    PS if the mailing list ever becomes an option, PM me.

  20. #120
    SitePoint Zealot moagw's Avatar
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    Oh and I didn't mean buying a car WITHOUT cupholders. But with HEATED/COOLED cup holders.. A la the heated seats these days (which rock in the winter, I know)...

  21. #121
    SitePoint Wizard megamanXplosion's Avatar
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    I was thinking about making an article called 'Opera Conquers The Universe' or something else equally cheesy hehe. I don't know if I'll do it though, I've got more important things to do (message board script, guestbook script, updating my Capcom web site, creating a new web site called Hands On Design, etc. etc). If I get any free time then I might, because I think Opera is highly under-rated and my site development would be much easier (and more appreciated, especially my CSS experiments which seem to only work in Opera 90% of the time, so that cuts down the amount of users to actually see it and use it down to around 2.6%, ouch)

  22. #122
    SitePoint Zealot moagw's Avatar
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    I only used the installer, no extensions, and my tabs work, so I am sorry I don't follow that at all DougBTX. And I love the emphasis on REALLY wanting heated cupholders...

  23. #123
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moagw
    I only used the installer, no extensions, and my tabs work, so I am sorry I don't follow that at all DougBTX. And I love the emphasis on REALLY wanting heated cupholders...
    True, that was a relative sence. Try installing things like Tabbrowser Extensions, Tabbrowser Preferences, Tab Scroller and some others to make the Firefox tabs work as well as the Opera ones (or atleast closer to the Opera ones).

    From: http://texturizer.net/firefox/extensions/

    Douglas
    Hello World

  24. #124
    SitePoint Zealot moagw's Avatar
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    by closer to, you mean?? what? I think it is nice the way FF has the tabs layed out. I actually prefer that to opera's method (IMHO). I wish I could change the order of the tabs though (like opera) and drag it off into its own window. But I think FF is good left to itself, it gradually improves and I think its good, not great but like I said, I LIKE to know I have to do some things, to many automations start to make me wonder if I am "necessary" for my life to run.. LOL!!! I will praise opera on this though, the MULTITUDE of search bars I can add to my toolbar is ASTOUNDING. I haven't heard of most of those..

  25. #125
    SitePoint Wizard DougBTX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moagw
    by closer to, you mean?? what?
    Closer in functionality, not layout.
    Hello World


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