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  1. #101
    From space with love silver trophy
    SpacePhoenix's Avatar
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    I think hand-coding (checking in a browser, with error reporting turned up to highest level - on a development machine) is way better then any WYSIWYG program,.
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  2. #102
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    What happened to the OP? Did he go out and buy a Sitepoint book on HTML/CSS yet?

  3. #103
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XLCowBoy View Post
    What happened to the OP? Did he go out and buy a Sitepoint book on HTML/CSS yet?
    Yeah either that or he rain off into the sunset with his hair on fire!
    Actually he seemed to be coming around there at one point so he may be knee deep in learning (let's hope)

  4. #104
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    Why not just hand off a PSD to the developer and let the developer do the coding? They must exist, but I don't know any designers that write good code.

  5. #105
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by webber123456 View Post
    If your shop has switched to ASP.net, you're screwed.

    Visual Studio uses .aspx file extensions and the programmers have full control. Your work is either Visual Studio compliant or your work is a liability.

    Once a shop has invested in, (is infected by), Visual Studio, it's only a matter of time before use of other IDE's die.
    Forgive my "ignorance," but I find Dreamweaver's and Visual Studio's interface (that is the way it works) to be ALMOST identical. What is it that makes Visual Studio so superior to Visual Studio? Have you ever used Dreamweaver? You can also do ASP.Net I Dreamweaver, I believe. In addition, it's much better for a designer.


    Quote Originally Posted by webber123456 View Post
    If you persist in taking a stand on using Dreamweaver, your next stand will likely be in the unemployment line.
    How can you make such a bold statement? What facts do you have to back this statement up?

  6. #106
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevenHu View Post
    I would suggest you ask her to show you examples of bloated/bad code she is referring to that she got from you. Then you would know exactly what she is talking about. You'll be able to see if you can spot more such areas and hand-code those areas before they get to her. Then you'll get to use DW and she'll get her code the way she likes it.
    She did show me the code she was having a problem with. I am currently learning to use external CSS.

    It should be noted that when I copy and pasted my table html into Visual Studio it worked perfectly. As I have stated, I do believe this programmer is incompetent, and has not background in programming. She even stated this to me in no uncertain terms.

  7. #107
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way (or personal, for that matter ), I haven't read the whole thread and maybe I am missing part of the information, but by the way you have explained your case, he doesn't seem to be incompetent... They way I "heard" it, it sounds as a fault on your part for speeding the process but not paying enough attention to the quality of HTML/CSS that DW creates.

    DW can be configured to create a minimum amount of rubbish but you still need to "debug" it to create clean and nice code.

    If you are responsible for the HTML code, you should be the one, in my humble opinion, to create good, quality code and not him. A programmer is not a HTML.


    .
    Point well taken. I have learned from this experience that it is now my responsibility to write clean .html and css code. I guess I got sloppy. That's my fault. I am working with cleaner code. However, ASP.NET is a mystery to me and I am not sure how to make it work with web design. I will keep reading.

  8. #108
    SitePoint Wizard Another Designer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Sounds like you don't know what your doing in the simplest of forms and for that I would probably get rid of you and find someone who does have that knowledge and would be able to work well with the programmers. Unless your a spectacular/one in a million designerů

    Using Dreamweaver to create table layouts and modifying them is inefficient and shows you know very little about the html and css aspect without a crutch. If your employer is willing to keep you while having you learn these things then you should take that opportunity and quit whining.
    I can assure you I know what I'm doing! Although I do admit I have some more learning with CSS and even clean HTML, my skills far exceed my deficits in this field!

  9. #109
    Community Advisor ULTiMATE's Avatar
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    I hate to be offensive, but in this day and age Web Designers/Developers are sprouting by the dozen every minute. With a recession a lot more people are going to want to make a quick buck by learning to make websites, and those from disadvantaged parts of the world are definitely going to want to cash in on this need. If you're not writing your CSS and (X)HTML in Code View (at least) quickly and efficiently then you're going to be out of a job pretty soon. Undergraduate Computer Science students are capable of making standards-compliant, clean code with several scripting languages and HTML/CSS, so it's really up to you to keep learning. If you're still coding in tables and using Dreamweaver as a crutch (which I assume you aren't) then you'll be out of a job with very few employers wanting to take you on due to your dated skill-set.

    If I were you I'd go even further than dropping Dreamweaver and work solely in a text-editor, such as Notepad++. If you're feeling adventurous you could even give vim or GNU Emacs a try. I know many developers that write code obscenely fast in vim/Emacs due to their handiwork with shortcuts and with small plug-ins for automating their own work.

    In my opinion an IDE should only ever be used for bug-checking and automation of basic, time-consuming tasks. For example, I use NetBeans when I write Java to ensure that errors are caught before compile time, and I often use useful features like Profiling and automated templates to ensure that my work comes out perfect before I compile and check in.

    If you are in the worst-case scenario (still using tables for structure, cannot cope without Dreamweaver) then drop it immediately, pick up Notepad++ (other text-editors are available), build a gigantic list of RSS feeds from the best Web Design websites on the Internet (ask anyone for a good list) and then spend every waking moment building your skills up. Given two months you could be coding with the best of us.

  10. #110
    Object Not Found junjun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Point well taken. I have learned from this experience that it is now my responsibility to write clean .html and css code. I guess I got sloppy. That's my fault. I am working with cleaner code. However, ASP.NET is a mystery to me and I am not sure how to make it work with web design. I will keep reading.
    Sounds like you have the right attitude to do great things! Good luck with your future projects and never hesitate to use these forums if you run into specific problems, be it HTML/CSS or ASP.NET

  11. #111
    SitePoint Enthusiast LucDeacu's Avatar
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    Most people underestimate the importance of DreamWeaver, by eliminating it your boss is making you spend more time in the office, and therefore paying you more, quit complaining
    WebTouchUp.com
    Website touch-ups at flat rates! 64 hour turn-around time!
    Why get a re-design when you can get an upgrade?

  12. #112
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy dc dalton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Point well taken. I have learned from this experience that it is now my responsibility to write clean .html and css code. I guess I got sloppy. That's my fault. I am working with cleaner code. However, ASP.NET is a mystery to me and I am not sure how to make it work with web design. I will keep reading.
    Congrats for 'stepping up to the plate' .. we are here to assist as needed!

  13. #113
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    I think your boss want to use other, instead of DW, like joomla or other for site designing. But i'ld like to say that dreamviewer is best for site.

  14. #114
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    You can use DW either like notepad or use full functionalies within it, and therefore have to review your code, if generated result doesn't fit your requirement. I think your boss is overreacting for 2 reasons:
    - First, he aquired (I hope!) very expensive licenses for DW. Not using them would be a waste of money. Unless your boss is cutting on expenses and willing not to renew DW licenses,
    - Second, if you have those licenses, why is your chief that has to decide what tools you need to use? Your chief has only to decide the global standard for coding production. How this is achieved is your responsability. You should be able to use the tools you feel confortable with. Would it sound reasonable to prevent a plumber to use a wrench, or oblige him to use a different tool?

    Yes, in my opinion this is a GROSS error. Somehow like running with one leg!

  15. #115
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonK View Post
    I've never been able to use vi very well. In my Uni classes, we were supposed to use vi, but even after 3 weeks of trying to learn it, I got frustrated trying to do the simplest of tasks. I use Textpad and DW both, and I am very, very fast with them. I don't understand how you can work without a mouse!

    I am constantly working with multiple documents opened at once
    (in a tabbed interface), and reusing code between them. Also, search and replace across selected text, selected document, open documents, selected directories and defined "sites" is huge sometimes. Creating one time use regular expressions in the command line is ridiculous definitely not an efficient use of time (but if ever needed, may text editors still offer that).
    Across the span of 3 monitors, I have a minimum of 6 windows open ( so i can look at the source for all 6 at once ) so if I'm working with front end apps, I can edit the ecmascript/css/markup and the logic on the backend all at once by jumping between the windows instead of ctrl tabbing through silly tabs.

    Sed and awk make search and replace a breeze on unix. I can define an area, whole document, portions of a document, directories, and not only can I do that but on linux I can automate things such as say, match this regex for this directory, and depending on the operation I can insert things in a database or a text file, things of that nature. It's just not limited by the software I'm using, since I can program it to do whatever I want.

    As for regexes, once you get the hang it's not that hard, and most of the time its simple string replacements such as :%s,foo,bar,gc where 'foo' gets replaced by 'bar' and the c modifier denotes that I can hit y or n to replace or not, depending on whether its in a substring and not alone, sometimes faster than compiling manual regexes. Confirmation is a god send, I remember on windows you could only just replace and you'd have to undo and go back and check everything you replaced.

    Back to regex compilation, I can define my own functions for common regexes. I have a function to convert all literal symbol characters to their entity / references instead, so a literal bullet sign would turn into • et cetera, I have around 50 or so right now and I can keep on adding them. I can do this across directories, files, sections with *one* function call.

    For example, the usual way people code a semi graphical nav that is reliant upon images due to the design, most people just handcode every single bit of it.

    <ul id=nav-primary>
    <li id=primary-about><span>About</span></li>
    </ul>

    and you'd code each list item this way, but with vim, this is what i do

    primary-about|About
    primary-contact|Contact

    Then I record my keyboard combos ( which I'm pretty fast with now ) for the first list element ( adding the <li id=" before the attribute value, jumping to the | and adding the end quote, removing the | and adding the span around the text.. so if I had 15 or so items I would record myself doing the first, and do 14@a which applies the same combination for the next 14 lines, and from then on I'm pretty much done ( unless its adding some logic for current state, et cetera ).

    I have snippets that control my tab sizes, code formatting depending on the filetype which I have personally customized.

    And there are loads of useful plugins for HTML editing - jumping to the end tag with %, which is the native operator for jumping between ()'s and {}'s for programming.. I can commit my files to svn/cvs/git with vim instead of jumping to a file explorer and having to do it the slow way.. I can emulate Textmate snippets with a vim plugin... I can add/change/modify quotes and start tags with a vim surround plugin instead of doing it manually.. so to get rid of the quotes from "hello world" i just type ds".. there's a plethora of other things that make vim the best editor for text manipulation, and I haven't even been using it for more than 4 months so I'm still learning the capabilities.

    I used to think I was fast on DW because I knew all the little windows shortcuts ( ctrl shift end + delete, ctrl shift a delete, shortcuts for windows explorer, et cetera ) , but I'd say I'm around 3x more productive than I was earlier this year.

    Just because you think it's impossible doesnt mean it is. Remember the time when people used to say that people are less efficient because they're not in Dreamweaver design view or any WYSIWYG for that matter? And the more experienced you get, the more you want to hand-edit files instead of drag and drop, silly file prompts? Using vim and no mouse is just the next step up, basically. It seems very unorthodox and strange at first, but it's more productive if you have the willpower to learn it.

    Anytime I'm forced to use a normal text editor ( whether a co worker needs help ) I just find myself disabled, like I'm in a wheelchair.. basically.. I just can never go back because of vim.

  16. #116
    Error 404: Life not found silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    that is it my HTML skills that are the problem?
    That's what it sounds like. DW does add extra code sometimes, it's a WYSIWYG editor, that's it job, but if you know HTMl it's easy to spot when it's doing that and remove the unecessary code especially embedded CSS styles.

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Most of the people I know of who are using Dreamweaver properly spend most of their time in code view.
    Properly? As in anyone doing different is not using it properly?

    Sounds like they're coders then, as a designer, I spend most of my time with the view split between the two, I sometimes use code only if I'm working with a script but I very rarely use design only.
    It's 530 people, but do you really get it?
    ImgWebDesign - Web design in Buxton, High Peak, Derbyshire UK.

  17. #117
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy bluedreamer's Avatar
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    So your boss wants you to stop using Dreamweaver? In all honesty that no big deal since any decent web designer should be able to create using whatever tools are available.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Forgive my "ignorance," but I find Dreamweaver's and Visual Studio's interface (that is the way it works) to be ALMOST identical. What is it that makes Visual Studio so superior to Visual Studio? Have you ever used Dreamweaver? You can also do ASP.Net I Dreamweaver, I believe. In addition, it's much better for a designer.

    How can you make such a bold statement? What facts do you have to back this statement up?
    You miss my point. Better is relative to the user.

    In your case, the shop has turned control over to VS developers (producing .aspx files). They decide if what they see is "better". Apparently, they don't like what they see coming out of your work in Dreamweaver.

    History has shown that once a shop or organization switches control over to Microsoft products, those who try to cling on to other vendor products usually find themselves isolated unless they migrate over and conform.

    Once isolated, they are outside the team. We know what happens to non-team players.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I am working with cleaner code. However, ASP.NET is a mystery to me and I am not sure how to make it work with web design. I will keep reading.

    Anotherdesigner you don't need to know ASP.NET to be a designer. You need to know css and html/xhtml. Forget about asp.net that has nothing to do with you until you know css and xhtml amd even then it shouldn't impact your job at all.

  20. #120
    Is Still Alive silver trophybronze trophy RetroNetro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    is HTML just HTML?
    Yes but it is either done correctly or it is not valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I don't want to hand code. I am a a designer and know HTML pretty darn well. But to not use Dreamweaver it insane.
    This statement makes no sense to me, if you have a good understanding of HTML then you would not be so reliant on DW, because coding by hand (using DW or some other editor) would be easier done.

    Plus at some point you would have so many layouts already made that you would never have to create a new one, the next design will just fit in it, you just have to change some dimensions, images and content. Not to mention creating a code snippet library that you can always refer to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Would it be too much to program the ASP in Dreamweaver?
    I do not know anything about ASP so I might not be able to say for sure what can and cannot be used to edit it, I am sure there are alternatives, but why should he/she have to change what editor they use to suit your needs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    Do you see a solution to this?
    Go ask the programmer exactly what they are not into about the code DW is spitting out, (I am sure it is table code for layout the inline styles and the styles in the head that need to be moved to an external style sheet) and that you do not understand the difference between this file and a properly marked up one. Just like everyone here is telling you, if you want to work as a web designer you need to learn to use modern techniques, that way you got good job security. Plus once you do it (there will be a learning curve for sure) you will see just how much easier it is to do your job using HTM/CSS, you can still type it up in DW just never use the design view.

  21. #121
    SitePoint Member fades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Designer View Post
    I have been having problems with my programmers all because of the issues between an HTML Dreamweaver file and a Microsoft Visual Studio ASP file.
    I was recently in this situation. I was brought in by a company to work with a dot-Net development group working in Visual Studio 2008 and coding in ASPX. They needed my skills to help them clean-up UI bugs.

    I did have Dreamweaver available, and it would translate the files, but the problem was it couldn't interact with Microsoft Team System for file check-out/check-in. Big problem.

    In the end, the most efficient way was for me to work in Visual Studio 2008 myself. It has decent CSS support (considering it's MS that surprised the hell out of me). I could then run a local server on my box (warning: PC-only!), make changes, bug-fix and check-in the files for the next build. It was the most efficient way to work, but it does have a good learning curve as you need to work directly in the same interface as the developers and you need to know what NOT to touch.

    I'm really an open-source/Mac person, and I tried my best to find another way to work besides immersing myself in the land of Microsoft, but, honestly, the way this system has been designed, it seems the best solution right now.

  22. #122
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    when applying for some coding or html job almost all say that no dreamweaver or any other software shall be used besides plain notepad , i guess the reason is they pay someone to do the coding they want someone professional who knows what they doing and not some person who depends on DW, i use DW too because its easier and faster but i can understand the employers

  23. #123
    SitePoint Enthusiast jiefred's Avatar
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    i am not a programmer, just an SEO specialist . I experienced creating xml and html using a notepad and D**n it's really hard. And to think i have no idea or any knowledge about html... ( So shy because i am a medical technologist ) But i've finished my task and so thankful and proud that i can do that without the dream weaver...

    I know you just want to save more time and you can also work for another project that is why you are so upset about that. I think you better talk to your boss if that is confirmed then you should explain to your boss the disadvantages and advantages of having the dream weaver

  24. #124
    Guru in training bronze trophy SoulScratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockbotkins View Post
    I haven't used an editor in years, I find it much enjoyable by hand to help improve my skills and to master it.
    - so you use a pen write it all out huh.
    Last edited by SoulScratch; Dec 20, 2008 at 02:06.

  25. #125
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    its more the boss's responsibility for when they hire someone to be specific about what skills they want the hired one to have, not to get someone who says on their resume that tey use DW or something else rather then hand coding, then later request the employee to change.


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