Dreamweaver 8

I purchased Studio 8 a couple of years ago, then didn’t use it. Later, I purchased Rachel Andrew’s excellent book Build Your Own Standards Compliant Website Using Dreamweaver 8 from SitePoint. I began building my website untill ill health forced me to take an extended break. Now, I have returned to my work, but I have discovered a serious problem. Although my Web pages display properly in Dreamweaver’s display window, the pages do not display correctly in Internet Explorer 8. I assume that IE8 is not compatible with Dreamweaver 8 version 8.0.2.

Upon checking the Adobe Web site, I find that there have apparently been some sort of “updates” to Dreamweaver 8 that were available as downloads. Whenever I try to even access the “downloader” page on the Adobe Web site, my IE8 browser hangs up and I must use the Windows Task Manager to close it.

When I call Adobe Technical Support, I am told that I am not elegible for Tech Support, that Dreamweaver 8 is no longer supported, and that all of my problems must be with my browser. That is not a satisfactory explanation, nor was the suggestion by the support representative that I switch to FireFox or Safari. One wonders about the relationship between Microsoft and Adobe.

My question is: Must I now discard my Studio 8 software and all the work I have completed, and must I now throw away the book I had purchased from SitePoint, all because Adobe will not make a simple update availabe that will allow the HTML and CSS generated by Dreamweaver 8 to display properly in Internet Explorer 8? If one can’t trust Adobe for support, what is the alternative? The big corporations (Adobe) swallow up the small ones (Macromedia) and the customers get the shaft. Are there any Web development systems that are likely to remain supported for more than a year or two?

Thanks!

deesy

deesy58, Microsoft have been pretty open about the development process they undertake in taking a product to market. It’s not an assumption to say that they go through conventional testing methods like Alpha, Beta, Release Candidate (etc) when it’s clearly visible in previous products that such stage details have been made publicly visible. As someone who is a programmer I find it rather hard to believe that you compare the likes to Windows to military software or the kinds of embedded systems which will entirely run in a self-contained environment. Such systems have a much lower “risk of issue” as the hardware, and the entire environment it runs in are built purely for that system and therefore it doesn’t have to undertake the compatibility spectrum which a piece of software or the Windows OS would require in respect to balancing it’s efforts across an endless combination of hardware and software. If you don’t believe me on the matter of embedded systems VS PC stability, take it up with Steve Gibson, he reinforced these points a while back on Security Now.

In regards to my comments about you being a non-programmer, that was STRICTLY in the sense of the conversation as to the matter of how browser rendering engines operate and how Adobe’s Dreamweaver product is forced to rely on code which it has no control over and how it has no reasonable ability to future-proof (due to the components, specs and end user renderers of choice being of a third party). No military embedded system has to perform their job based entirely on 3rd party components which evolve on a regular basis (nightly if you go by how often Webkit and Gecko are updated in the build cycles) which Adobe have no control over. It’s like saying that Linux must be held responsible if someone developing a product on C++ crashes because their meant to be running the executable code.

As for your coding experience, unless you are going to state here that you are actively involved in the web design process (and have the underlying knowledge of the subject required to understand how rendering operates), you really aren’t in a position to question how it produces it’s software for that environment when you clearly don’t have all the facts. I understand why they shouldn’t be held accountable for other peoples code (which is what the design window effectively results in when used on a web browser)… and I have little sympathy for you in that respect. After all… Dreamweaver as a product IS pretty bug free, you can use the code window all you like and there’s probably little to no impact in terms of rendering when you write the code… it’s just the system that’s dependant on outsourced components (which it cannot produce internally due to public usage of web browsers) that is affected - and as stated before, Adobe have no control over other organisations. :slight_smile:

Apparently, either the standards have changed, Dreamweaver 8 can’t produce “standards compliant” code, or Internet Explorer cannot properly interpret “standards compliant” code, isn’t that right?

So far as I know, the standards haven’t changed… so far as I know, older dreamweavers (if they indeed were the ones writing the code) could NOT write very compliant code (the newest one, cs4? using the Presto engine for Design View which is the same as Opera’s, is the closest to “ok code”), and Internet Explorer has not really ever been able to interpret “standards compliant” code (though IE8 is very very close, and maybe I’d even say, it’s on par on basic CSS and HTML as the other modern browsers since they did away with that Haslayout business, a major source of bugs).

In fact, I’m wondering if this is what happened (haslayout being removed). You didn’t state before that your users/viewers all have the same browser; are they on a intranet? The rules for something like that where everyone has the same user agent are more lax: you only have to make sure stuff works in just that one browser/user agent.

If the Adobe Web site tells me that I can download free updates to Dreamweaver 7, Dreamweaver 8, Dreamweaver 9, etc., then why is the download site incompatible with IE8, as Adobe TS is telling me?

Hm, how much of the code you are using is actually truly being written by DreamWeaver? If it’s a lot, then I would expect problems in both IE8 and most of the modern browsers (depending on how good their error rendering is). Do I have this clear: IE8 is the ONLY one having problems?

Alternatively, you could post a link to a website in question. If it’s a clear and obvious code problem, it may be possible for someone to say “hey it’s really just this one thing here in the code” and you could continue using DW to write your code while being able to check for the One Big Thing That Breaks. In general, I do not code anything special for IE8.
That doesn’t solve your issue with Adobe in general, but it may help you continue living with their business decision.

If the WSYIWYG portion of a development system like Dreamweaver can’t be trusted to work reliably, what purpose does it serve? Should everybody write all of their HTML and CSS in NotePad? Why would anybody ever purchase a development system like Dreamweaver (any version) if they will be advised to write their code in a simple text editor like NotePad?

Actually, many of us wonder that ourselves: it costs an arm and a leg and outputs crappy code (most/all WYSIWYGs anyway). However, the market is not coders (though I suppose there are a good number of misguided people who want to learn to code and believe starting out with something like DW is the way to go) but Joe who wants to make his motorcycle website. He has a lot of knowlegde of motorcycles and wants to share it with the world, or gain a web presence for his business. He isn’t in the market to actually pay someone to build it for him, plus he happens to like doing things for himself. However, he also doesn’t want or plan to spent 2-3 years learning web coding. That’s what DW is for. However as a product, it evolves with the user agents (the browsers). The current version of DW can output something that works ok in FF, Opera, Safari, IE7 and 8, etc. The older versions were built to output code that worked on Opera back when it wasn’t free, Firefox when it was the new, secure, faster browser the nerds were embracing, and back when Safari was a “new” browser. Every generation of browser have bugs that affect coding styles. IE is just the worst of them, especially because of the special entire strange set of rules it had for CSS called “Haslayout”. I would assume the guys writing DW would have tried to add code that could deal with Haslayout without breaking the other browsers too much.

I do not make a living developing Web sites, and I have no intention of ever doing so.

I feel your pain, man. You are in a position of having spent a good amount of money on software that for whatever reason cannot deal with modern user agents, and you are not a coder and are not planning on becoming a coder and are not going to spend money so someone else can code your websites.

I don’t have experience with DW other than through clients and other forumites who have used it, because I started out wanting to be a coder and bypassed the expensive step. But it would seem strange to me if your DW’s code output ONLY broke in IE8 but worked reasonably well with other modern browsers.

Other than my suggestion above to see if there’s some single, obvious and easily fixable code issue your copy is outputting (that would be ideal), another option could be trying out some of the free WYSIWYGs out there. I don’t expect Adobe to change its mind, so we might be able to help you best by helping you find an editor that can do what you need with much less fuss and less coming out of your wallet.

And hopefully less hair loss.

*edit

Upon checking the Adobe Web site, I find that there have apparently been some sort of “updates” to Dreamweaver 8 that were available as downloads. Whenever I try to even access the “downloader” page on the Adobe Web site, my IE8 browser hangs up and I must use the Windows Task Manager to close it.

Have you been able to get the downloads with another browser? That may have been Adobe’s reaction: your IE8 is puking, but possibly Firefox or Opera can download the updates. Getting a copy of either of those will not affect your copy of IE8… and while I doubt it, it’s possible that the updates will help your DW work “well enough” with IE8.

You may want to peruse this page if you think switching to another editor is just easier all around: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_HTML_editors

See, the thing is, because Dreamweaver 8 is very old, it’s preview window uses a very outdated version of Internet Explorer (Probably version 6). One of the main reasons for the problems you are getting is due to Microsoft’s poor level of standardization in older versions of it’s browsers to which most web designers find themselves having to adapt their websites to deal with a great number of bugs. In regards to the software you are using, I have nothing but sympathy for Adobe in this case (as will most other professionals). Dreamweaver is intended to be a tool to help you achieve the goal of producing a website, using an elderly version of such a tool (and being reliant on it’s preview window) while expecting your code to appear in the preview pane as it does in all modern web browsers is simply not a justified wish because as much as we would all like it, Adobe cannot be expected to future proof their applications (especially when all software has a limited life-cycle for upgrades - usually a year). In regards to getting upgrades, I don’t know why you are getting those errors but as for the technical support request… they were correct in their assumption, and you should (in fact) not be relying on a preview window to test real world implementations of your code.

Dreamweaver is what is known as a WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) application, and as such, all these tools which allow the drag and drop formation of code are notoriously well known for producing buggy, non-standard, bloated source code for a website design (not due to anything the producers of the software do wrong, simply because there’s no way for machines to understand contextual meaning). Relying on the designer and / or preview window of such programs is simply going to ensure the quality of your work is guaranteed to be substandard from the offset. As technical support told you… you SHOULD be actively testing your websites in a variety of browsers (as browsers - not as some preview window), websites need to work in the type of environments your visitors will end up using, like Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, Opera and Safari. I doubt anyone will be visiting your website using Studio 8’s preview window (which makes me wonder why anyone would design their code to look good in that window). Adobe cannot be held responsible for the individual using the software making unreasonable requests as to it’s support for future standards and browsers, especially when it has no right to integrate those solutions into it’s software.

As for your question… You don’t have to dis-guard Studio 8… just because the designer view is (and has always been) rubbish and the preview window is now outdated due to a wider selection of browsers and browser upgrades, this gives you an opportunity. The code window in Dreamweaver still works as it did when you first purchased the product, and it allows you to produce a website using HTML, CSS and JavaScript. You can load various web browsers (opened to your websites pages) and hit the refresh button each time you make changes to see how those changes take effect. This is how most web designers work. Providing what you call a “simple upgrade” really isn’t that simple of a task, the browser world has changed since that product went to market and it would be physically impossible to adopt their tools for every rendering engine in common use (some are closed source) - this means that the lesson you should take away from this experience is all coding you do should be done through the code window (not through the design view) and you should be testing (as Adobe told you) in real world browsers… not in a single preview window no-one else will see and expect that limited environment to be a magic bullet solution for all your visitors… Internet Explorer is no longer used by everyone, and you can’t rely on it (or some preview window) to ensure your code works across multiple browsers. :slight_smile:

I wanted to say I agree with Alex: you own a bad old WYSIWYG… however, you do still have it, so basically you have an uber-text-editor. Since you need a text editor and multiple testing browsers to do web work anyway, you’re set on the first part, and just need to download as many other browsers as reasonably possible (Opera, Safari-for-Windows (I assume you’re on Windows), Chrome, Firefox 3 and a text browser such as Lynx or Elinks are good ones to have). Having access to multiple version of IE is a separate subject… hopefully will become a How-To sticky in the near future. There’s a trick to it, as any new IE’s downloaded and installed normally prevents you from keeping the old version too. Web devs tend to test on IE8 and 7, and often 6 still.

You can still use this old version of DW, which is good. As Alex said, avoid “Design View”, use only “Code View”, and additionally, don’t let it “help” you (turn off stuff like code insertion). This may initially be harder for you to do but you sound like someone who wants to learn and do web design, so jump in!

If you have questions as you go (you will), the Web Design area of the forums can help!

Am I missing something here, why not just add IE8 to the list of preview browsers in Dreamweaver?

JJ: can you do that, if it didn’t exist back when the DW version was written?

It has to be installed on your pc but that’s always been the case, yes you can do that. What I’ve done for years is have whatever version of IE is at least one behind the current one and IE6 on my laptop.

My problem, here, is not one of making my Web page viewable with a number of different browsers. My problem specifically pertains to IE8. The visitors to my internal Web site are all using IE8 at this time, so it makes no difference how it looks in Opera, FireFox, Safari, etc., even though the principles of good Web design tell us that our Web pages should display somewhat consistently across multiple browsers. Besides, I built the site using the guidelines I found in the Rachel Andrews book that I purchased from SitePoint. The key portion of the title of that book is “Standards Compliant.” Apparently, either the standards have changed, Dreamweaver 8 can’t produce “standards compliant” code, or Internet Explorer cannot properly interpret “standards compliant” code, isn’t that right?

My complaint about Adobe is specific. I do not make a living developing Web sites, and I have no intention of ever doing so. This was not an inexpensive software package (Studio 8). I do not expect free technical support indefinitely. I do not expect free “upgrades.” There is, however, a widely accepted difference between an “upgrade” and an “update.” If the Adobe Web site tells me that I can download free updates to Dreamweaver 7, Dreamweaver 8, Dreamweaver 9, etc., then why is the download site incompatible with IE8, as Adobe TS is telling me? In order to download the updates, and in order to properly view my Web pages, I must switch to a different browser …? That’s just crazy! No matter what our personal and professional feelings about Microsoft might be, it is a fact that a considerable number of visitors to the Internet use IE, and IE8 in particular.

Yes, Dreamweaver uses a WYSIWYG code generating system. Like Visual Studio and other development systems, it is inefficient. It isn’t supposed to be efficient. It is supposed to be a work/time saving method of producing large or complex computer programs. If the WSYIWYG portion of a development system like Dreamweaver can’t be trusted to work reliably, what purpose does it serve? Should everybody write all of their HTML and CSS in NotePad? Why would anybody ever purchase a development system like Dreamweaver (any version) if they will be advised to write their code in a simple text editor like NotePad?

I guess I don’t understand that reasoning.

deesy

You didn’t state before that your users/viewers all have the same browser; are they on a intranet? The rules for something like that where everyone has the same user agent are more lax: you only have to make sure stuff works in just that one browser/user agent.

Currently, it is an intranet. It makes no sense to me, then, to download some different browser that I don’t need, and that my users don’t use.

Hm, how much of the code you are using is actually truly being written by DreamWeaver? If it’s a lot, then I would expect problems in both IE8 and most of the modern browsers (depending on how good their error rendering is). Do I have this clear: IE8 is the ONLY one having problems?

I have followed the step-by-step instructions in the Rachel Andrew book. Some of it requires modifications and additions to be made in code view, which I did. When I started development, I might have had IE6 installed, but Microsoft pestered me until I installed IE7, then IE8. My users were also pressed by Microsoft to install IE8. Since IE8 is currently the only browser in use on our intranet, I have no way of knowing whether the problem might extend to other browsers, and it wouldn’t seem to make any difference if it did. My Web site is unfinished, and it is pretty simple so far.

Actually, many of us wonder that ourselves: it costs an arm and a leg and outputs crappy code (most/all WYSIWYGs anyway). However, the market is not coders (though I suppose there are a good number of misguided people who want to learn to code and believe starting out with something like DW is the way to go) but Joe who wants to make his motorcycle website. He has a lot of knowlegde of motorcycles and wants to share it with the world, or gain a web presence for his business. He isn’t in the market to actually pay someone to build it for him, plus he happens to like doing things for himself. However, he also doesn’t want or plan to spent 2-3 years learning web coding. That’s what DW is for. However as a product, it evolves with the user agents (the browsers). The current version of DW can output something that works ok in FF, Opera, Safari, IE7 and 8, etc.

Actually, I was teaching an I.T. class at a local college a couple of years ago, and DW was a required resource for teacher and students alike. It seemed to work well enough for the class at the time, but now appears to have become incompatible with the latest version of IE. I might be willing to pay for an “upgrade” if I felt that I could trust Adobe to deliver a product that would work reliably with IE8 and IE9 (when it ships), but their actions on their Web site, and the words of their Tech Support agents do not inspire confidence in either the Dreamweaver product, or the company.

I feel your pain, man. You are in a position of having spent a good amount of money on software that for whatever reason cannot deal with modern user agents, and you are not a coder and are not planning on becoming a coder and are not going to spend money so someone else can code your websites.

Actually, I have been writing code since the late 1960’s, including Octal and Hexadecimal (boot loaders). I have done an extensive amount of assembly-level, real-time software development, and it is tedious and time-consuming. Compilers were a giant leap forward in the development of computer programming, and visual development studios were an even more important advancement. With hardware prices so low, it makes no sense to hire expensive coders to sit and grind out low level code, no matter how efficient it might be. On the other hand, if the code produced by a visual development studio is faulty, then that system is worthless, and the money spent to purchase it was wasted.

Have you been able to get the downloads with another browser? That may have been Adobe’s reaction: your IE8 is puking, but possibly Firefox or Opera can download the updates. Getting a copy of either of those will not affect your copy of IE8… and while I doubt it, it’s possible that the updates will help your DW work “well enough” with IE8.

Hmm. Good suggestion. I have a Linux box that is hardly ever turned on anymore, and it has FireFox installed. I think I’ll fire it up and see if the Adobe Web site behaves any differently. Of course, unless Adobe and Microsoft are in some sort of tiff, I certainly would not expect to see so many problems with the Adobe Web site when using IE8 … :injured:

Thanks for the info, and the suggestion.

deesy

So install IE8 on it, ftp your site somewhere and preview it that way. DW is just a fancy text editor, dunno why it’s getting such a bashing in this thread it’s the industry leading software for webdesign for a reason.

dunno why it’s getting such a bashing in this thread it’s the industry leading software for webdesign for a reason.

I’ll happily bash anything that puts out the kind of garbage I see in sites built like that (esp that MM_swap junk…). I cringe every time I see a site built in any wysiwyg, the amount of bloat and inaccessibility and more bloat and using Javascript for everything, arg. Makes me lose hair.

But that’s also a personal opinion I guess, and no, I can’t blame anyone who is not a coder (sorry deesy by “coder” I did mean specifically HTML/CSS/JS coders, not programmers of other languages) for thinking it’s a good idea. I’m trying really hard to be nice about it and try to help the OP get some use out of DW but, arg, DW! It’s the “leading software for webdesign” for the reason that it’s easy to use, backed by a big name (Adobe) and outputs stuff that “looks” ok (the fact that there are schools pushing students to use it makes it worse). Nobody sees the Yugo lurking underneath because only coders and people using AT ever see that anyway.

My foster-brother-in-law (dunno the engrish term for it) is learning some web design in school as part of general Game Design. The teacher made everyone use an old version of DW (not sure which, but it wasn’t “CS#” anything), and explained how to use the FONT tag and that damn MM_swap for simple mouseovers (both conveniently added to the code by the editor, something that frankly the plain and old-fashioned Notepad++ cannot be blamed for, ever). See why I haven’t much hair anymore?? And I’m no Sinead O’Conner, I don’t look sexy without hair.

@deesy: I don’t think Adobe is to blame for this futhermore when you have such an old version.

The first thing you need to do is to validate your code and see if there are any errors (DW has a validating tool built in but in this case, because you have such an old version, you may want to go to w3c.org and use their validator instead).

Chances are that you will have some kind of error and that’s the reason why it is not showing properly in IE8.

Also, IE8 has to rendering modes: standards and IE7-like… It is the doctype that tells the browser how it should render the page and how to interpret the code.

If the page doesn’t validate and you can find the error… fantastic! Fix it and job done. If it validates (or fails) but you can’t understand why, then go to “Just starting my design” and ask for help (and please, do post your code and be specific about the problem so we can help you to find the solution).

PS: Posting in the right forum will help you to get a speedy answer. Forum support is to answer questions about the SitePoint forum such as “where should I post this?” or “this feature of the forum doesn’t work”. :smiley:

Best of luck

[ot]DW can help you to speed your work if you use it the right way. It doesn’t necessarily need to put garbage if you configure it properly. But, of course, you need to know what you’re doing. The problem with WYSIWYG softwares is not that they’re bad… they’re bad because:

  1. many people that use them don’t control the crap it may load with a default configuration and have little knowledge of how things should look behind.

  2. On a web page there are so many variables that you can’t leave everything on automatic and expect to work everywhere the same way. As a minimum, you use at least two different technologies (HTML,CSS) and often enough you use 4 (HTML, CSS, Javascript and your preferred server-side programming language).

It is unrealistic to expect Adobe to know how Microsoft will program their next browser because Microsoft only disclose a small part of that information (and, of course, with DW8, IE8 was not even in mind). Therefore, it is unrealistic to make Adobe responsible for IE’s bad behaviour. And if there’s something that we know for sure and for ages… is that IE had always a funny way to understand and interpret standards…

On the other hand, many perfectly created websites broke when IE8 came into the market. While it is the most standar compliant browser Microsoft has ever made, the change in their philosophy had some effects.

Regarding DW, it costs an arm and a leg because it is definately the best of the market and tries hard to follow standards and tries to keep up with best practices. But best practices have changed over time (no, the standards haven’t changed but the way to use them have)

Regarding your foster-brother-in-law (don’t know the english term either) … well, if that teacher doesn’t care about teaching things properly or at least warn them of the advantages or disavantages… I feel sorry for him. :smiley:

PS: No, I don’t use DW often but I do use it as well as I use Nvu or Komposer… but most of the time I prefer Vim or Notepad++[/ot]

http://www.adobe.com/support/dreamweaver/downloads_updaters.html#dw8 This page works fine for me in IE8. Is this the one that was not working for you?

I’ve been using DW for years but I’ve always built mouse overs using CSS and mostly just used DW for it’s split screen design/code view and shortcuts for editing code. I’m probably not using it for 80% of the things it can do and I recentlly even stopped using it to FTP.

I can see how someone who doesn’t know anything about code might produce bad code using DW.

That’s kinda part of the problem of DW. Paul O’Brien also uses DW. He already has it and it already has his settings etc listed.

But the point of DW (marketing-wise) is people who want to make a website themselves without spending 2+ years learning HTML and CSS and all that.

So while I agree one should be using it as you do, code view and whatnot, that’s not something an HTML/CSS newb can do, and yet this product is marketed specifically for this person! Otherwise, all you’ve got is a super expensive text editor (again, unless you already had it or got it for free). I can do all the stuff you do, and I paid nothing for vim or gEdit.

Oh, and this:

Hmm. Good suggestion. I have a Linux box that is hardly ever turned on anymore, and it has FireFox installed. I think I’ll fire it up and see if the Adobe Web site behaves any differently.

Adobe’s pretty Linux UNfriendly. I am on Linux all the time and have many problems with their site. Coldfusion ftw : ( I have other rants, like that choosing Dutch does not guarantee the download page for something like Adobe Reader remains in Dutch… no, the instructions are only available in Engrish…

I’d get a fresh Firefox (or whatever) on your current machine, go to Adobe’s site, see if you can get the updates, update your DW, and you can delete/remove/uninstall the FF after that if you don’t even want it taking up space on your machine. This way you can avoid any Linux shenanagans and also, usually when you try to download something in Linux, they’ll automatically detect your OS and offer you a download meant for it (if there is an OS difference). You want them to see you’re on Windows, I believe.

After that, if no luck, post the current code and the problem IE8 is having and we can very likely find the culprit. It is possible that it’s an IE8-specific bug that Rachel Andrews could not know about (not sure how likely that is, though).

I couldnt possibly comment :shifty:

Lawlz : )

Actually I’ve heard of a “student price” or some such, which while not free was very cheap.

The teacher made everyone use an old version of DW (not sure which, but it wasn’t “CS#” anything), and explained how to use the FONT tag and that damn MM_swap for simple mouseovers (both conveniently added to the code by the editor, something that frankly the plain and old-fashioned Notepad++ cannot be blamed for, ever).

At our school, teachers and students were required to use Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004. This was the case even after Dreamweaver 8 was available.

deesy