Do you believe in Extraterrestrials?

They already do that too Jake, it’s called ‘slingshotting’. Spacecraft are always launched Eastwards to take advantage of the 1000 mph spin the earth already has and unmanned satellites that have further to go than just the moon have been slingshotting off the other planets to gain velocity since the Voyager days.

Unfortunately your artificial gravity idea wouldn’t work since the second that acceleration ceased any inertial effects would also cease and the crew would immediatley be back into freefall. Also, if you span a ship up to create centrifugal force, it’s not the same as gravity and comes with it’s own problems anyway.

I hope we find a way without magnetism - otherwise it’d be useless with planets like Mars with extremely weak fields.

I just wish we got our act together as a race and decided to get ‘out’ there. We got to the moon and lost interest - the moon is pathetic. Heck, staying in our own solar system is rather laughable.

In fact, I had an idea about how we could gain speed - and that involved magnetism. The idea came from the idea of a particle accelerator, just on a huge scale; slinging a spacecraft round and round and round in huge circles, constantly speeding up - before being released and slung off into space. By directing the craft with the floor facing to the outside of the ‘orbit’, it would simulate gravity in that the people would be pulled to the floor.

We have a great capacity for self delusion Jake, and it allows us to ignore real threats to our existence whilst persuing these goals of material wealth. If we don’t get off this planet we will become extinct all that much sooner but spending money on getting off-planet isn’t as important as spending trillions to protect the oil companies interests in the gulf.

Funny, that perspective of needing to look up to someone or something is common in people who follow some of our more interesting philosophies if you know what I mean. Others hope that when we make contact it’ll be with a weaker civilisation that we can dominate and exploit.

It’s already happened Jake, using magnetism.. Coming up with an ‘anti-gravity’ device that genuinely negates the force of gravity might be a bit trickier though since we don’t even really understand why gravity exists.

Some people say that the universe is infinitely big. Under this presumption, somewhere out there there will be monkeys typing Shakespeare :lol:

Heck, we could be the only creatures out there. There could be nothing out there other than desolate planets. But the thought is so depressing, I hope that one day we will come across a culture way in advance of our own, a culture to look up to, in a way. All it takes is for us to see, for example, that they can counteract gravity, and our scientists will find a way. It’s because we don’t believe it can happen that we don’t try.

It would also seem rather funny. We are spending our resources on preventing our own advancement; fighting within ourselves, spending so much of our own money for the chance of more or less money (stock market), people going through the same routine every day. And all this time we’re staying with our feet firmly on the floor when we have so much to explore.

it’s like staying on the first page of a book and arguing about the arrangements of the paragraphs, never turning the page and experiencing the story!

I even will go further:

  • Our body has so many cells.

  • Our planet has so many species.

  • Our universe has so many stars and planets.

  • Our universe is not unique. There are more.

I already love this forum. So many opinions here. Do the extraterrestrials believe in us? Why not? :wink:

Wish I shared your high opinion of the human species and all we’re doing is wondering if there is other life than us in the universe, what’s wrong with that?

Actually it’s not ‘just opinions’, it’s maths and it’s not manipulated, it’s simple extrapolation which is a technique used all the time. Ironically, if we were speculating about the existence of life in forms other than our own then we would indeed be indulging in pure guess work and it would most likely to influenced by bias and manipulation according to the owners own prejudices.

In our case though, we’re extrapolating on a known data set, our own physiology and the circumstances under which it was allowed to flourish. We can certainly make predictions based on that data.

Just look at planets, just because there are some in our solar system doesn’t mean that were any anywhere else but the theory of the formation of our solar system predicted that there would be other planets around other stars and there are. Why is it any less believeable that if life can arise here it can arise elsewhere?

I had a response typed and I hit the wrong button. No I was responding to guido’s argument JJ. Basically I’m with you, if we say “maybe it’s unimaginable” (or “given what we don’t know”), then by definition we can’t imagine it and we are really, really using our resources foolishly.

Yes, just like finding water by watching where the birds go (the principle behind the Fermi paradox) and given that we know our lives (the only life we know of) are based on a set of coincidences so profound that the likelihood is infinitesimal. Then to think a similar indecipherable anti-entropic occurrence has taken place, and created 0 evidence of it’s existence in an area that does not even approach the “infinite” that people often tout; yes, well…whatever floats your boat.

In the end, it isn’t really about possibilities or likelihoods or any of the things we claim. We need wonder. We need mystery. “The mysterious is the most beautiful thing we can experience. It is the source of all true art and science” - Albert Einstein. That terrestrial and much more knowable fact is more wondrous and mysterious than any alien of any construction could ever be. We cheapen and belittle our nobility by dressing it up in conversations about “aliens” IMO.

This is all just opinions though. I’d like more if we left out the conveniently chosen science and manipulated stats and stuff.

When a believer is toiling beside me in the sugar mine, he can mock my lack of belief. Until then I call dibs on the mocking, but I don’t think there’s a point.

No one is arguing that our form of life is the only form of life that can exist, we’re just working off a known data set Jake, otherwise extrapolation becomes completely meaningless.

Once you move into the realms of ‘life could take forms we can’t imagine so you can’t rule anything out’ then basically anything becomes possible, it’s a pointless exercise. That’s the kind of woolly thinking that alllows humans to believe anything that suits them because it can’t be proven wrong. That doesn’t make it right or even likely though.

By ‘negative proof’ do you mean lack of proof? If so then a lack of proof that something doesn’t exist doesn’t constitute evidence that it does exist.

It then becomes a question of how likely it is to exist.

Exceedingly well put, Shaun :slight_smile:

Don’t fall prey to the negative proof fallacies!

All we know, is that the universe is big. We also know that our life is so improbable, it shouldn’t exist. So, it’s big - there should be aliens. Our existence is so tenuous and reliant on apparent coincidence, it shouldn’t.

Using the exact same logic that makes the existence of aliens “likely”, we would conclude that it is unlikely that we exist. Huh?

It’s insoluble. It’s highest purpose would seem to be that it allows us to illustrate paradox, and who doesn’t love illustrations? To actually engage this argument is to give away your ability to come to any sort of understanding about it.

See, my toastlove gets clearer and clearer huh?

I gotta go. I need to work on some irrigation and eat toast.

Extraterrestrials are stories for adults…

Really? Why?

How about this:
given what we don’t know, the likelihood of no co-existing life approaches but never reaches 0. :wink:

Well said :wink:

This thread isn’t about whether or not we have reason to believe in alien life. Beliefs are purely that - beliefs. If extraterrestrial life was discovered, it would no longer be a belief but rather fact, apart of course from conspiracy theorists - and others who have certain beliefs which directly contradict the evidence.

I personally find it highly unlikely that human intelligence is all there is out there. That’s like believing that walking is the best mode of transport.

I do, however, believe that (as I’ll restate) alien life may not be life in a chemical sense. There are a lot more possibilities; there is much more to the universe than chemistry. I would be more prepared to believe in a life force which is independent on chemical energy, but for now I’ll assume life as being chemically based. My guess is that we will never detect any intelligence out there because we wouldn’t recognise it.

The belief that life requires water is foolish, as is the idea that life requires earth-like pressures/temperatures and our atmosphere. Just because creature A from planet A requires conditions A, does not mean that creature B from planet B requires conditions A.

Life adapts to the habitat.

Now, I agree that carbon is certainly a wonderful element - its atomic structure allows carbon to be part of billions of different molecules, including most of the chemicals in terrestrial life. Other elements could create complex systems, but far from advanced life, so carbon-based organisms are the most likely.

Typical arguments are that life could not exist in other atmospheres because DNA cannot be formed. Again, foolish. We are made of DNA - just like my home is made of bricks. Some buildings are made of wood, some of straw and some of glass.

I saw a movie of a guy eating his own head once!

Pictures and movies aren’t even accepted as evidence at all in many places now.

Yes, I believe there is aliens and UFO thingy. I have seen a lot of pictures of them:)

Very true Jake, and I must say your points are extremely well argued and thought out.

I completely agree with you. It is unlikely, that is all that I’m saying.

Why I think the argument in general immaterial:
I think all of what you say regarding the possibility is 100% true. It implies such a limit in our understanding that conjecture is useless to us. It’s like a penguin trying to understand quantum physics.
Essentially, given what we know, the likelihood of co-existing life approaches but never reaches 0.
If things were different, they would not be the same. That seems the crux of the argument I hear a lot. While that is so absolutely true (the greatest truth, embodying the paradox that allows existence, but that is another story), it is kind of useless. It’s true and completely senseless at the exact same time.
The only value I see to this argument are the transcendental ideas that get embodied in it. The argument itself is meaningless and useless I think, the ideas it embodies are totally vital. When a debate about the unknowable starts up, it’s real value is metaphysical IMO. Metaphysical debate, while extremely interesting and vital, is in the end a 0 sum game.
“This is a strange game, it seems the only way to win is to not play”.

That’s why I love toast. No tricks, no mental gymnastics. Just hot, crunchy bread and melty butter if you want.

Hah, great post, love the analogy.

Did you notice what you were doing during your tale? You were creating some numbers that a (very simple) mathematical (rabbit) equation can be based on.

8 boxes on one table, one is perfectly formed (by our understanding of a perfectly formed box) has markings and contains a pink rabbit. There are a billion tables out there, not boxes Shaun, and out of the tables we’ve observed only 1% has had boxes and of the boxes we’ve observed only 1% of those are perfectly formed and marked and the have potential to be rabit boxes but that still leaves us with 100,000,000 boxes that could contain a rabbit, that’s quite a lot, if there’s only one rabbit box on our table and it actually contained a rabbit then out of 100,000,000 boxes that might also contain a rabbit the possiblity that some of them DO contain a rabbit is qwuite high, wabbit.

Hmmm. Regardless then of your ‘feelings’, there’s quite a high potential for there to be pink rabbits out there wouldn’t you say (The Rabbit equation) and yet we’ve never seen any evidence of rabbit grazing or any other kind of rabbit activity out there in the galaxy (The Rabbit paradox).

er… wots up doc? Just get annihilatated by your own logic?

[FONT=“Georgia”]No.

If there are eight funky boxes on the table. You open the lid of each of them, peep inside, and find that seven out of eight are empty, but one has a pink rabbit inside.

When you sit down, you look across the table and find, oops, there was another box there you didn’t open yet.

Would you say that, because there was a pink rabbit in one of the funky boxes, there must absolutely be a pink rabbit in that ninth one too?

Or would you instead say, because most of the funky boxes seen so far are empty, it is more likely that remaining one is also empty?[/FONT]

There’s no evidence to support that other civilisations have or do exist, there I postulate that there are none. Whether you subscribe to the mathematical likelyhood of there being other civilisations or not is irrelevant isn’t it, we still don’t see them.

[FONT=“Georgia”]I don’t disagree with you there.

I’d like to think that because there are possibly tens of billions of funky boxes in the neighbourhood, that it’s possible that at least one more has something in it, yellow rabbit, purple hamster, red frog, but until we observe something else I’d have to say that, despite my feelings, I can’t call it a fact.

BUT…

Out of the eight funky boxes that were on table, only one (the one with the rabbit) was perfectly formed and in tact (In fact there was also a big green check on it too, and a smiley face drawn with a marker-pen). The first two boxes were fried, the fourth was in the freezer, the fifth, sixth and seventh were squashed flat, the eighth was sunk in a water tank.

Out of the billions of funky boxes out there, we’ve so far seen a couple hundred, and most of those were squashed flat, or frozen or burnt. A handful were perfectly formed with green checks and smiley faces drawn on the side. But we’ve been unable to peek inside any of those ones yet.

If we can, and we find we can reliably find critters inside several of them, then we can say, “It’s likely that all funky boxes with green checks and smileys have animals inside.”

We’re not there yet though. Out of all the funky boxes with green checks and smileys we’ve seen, we’ve only been able to peek inside one. Just one. That same one on the table. So we can’t make any factual conclusions yet.

I’d like to believe that many of those perfectly formed funky boxes have creatures, but my liking to think that still doesn’t make my feelings a fact.[/FONT]

but actually you can postulate on ‘nothing’ that’s exactly what the Fermi paradox is based on, a whole lot of nothing.

[FONT=“Georgia”]I don’t get you, you know.

I just spent several posts trying to tell you that Fermi Paradox whatever is bunk and here you are telling me the same, as though I was the one defending it.

It’s bunk. It’s bull’. The Drake Equation thingy is bull’ too.

Do we actually disagree?

[/FONT]

really? gotta get my gun, there will be no mice or cookie monsters here - extraterrestrials or not :stuck_out_tongue: