Female web developers

After reading through the replies, I cannot help but be moved by the larger debate going on over this. :slight_smile: I’ve thought about this for awhile now since my initial post, and I feel that although the primary focus of this organization will be geared towards women’s initiatives, there’s no need to restrict membership to strictly women.

I have to admit that although I can rationalize the benefits of having male members, I can’t help but feel a little defeated by it. I very much liked the idea of a sisterhood of web developers lol, as naive as that sounds.

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I very much liked the idea of a sisterhood of web developers lol, as naive as that sounds.

It’s your baby! If you like that idea, then do it. I’m merely pointing out (speaking only for myself) that sometimes, that sort of inclusive nature can be bad. If you want it to be female-only and you’re able to make it work that way, then do it!
If, for the purposes of the organization you’re creating, you have decided that mixed gender does make more sense, then do that.

May I ask, do you have any concrete mission statements, goals, etc - what are the driving purpose(s) of the organization, specifically? We’ve covered broad strokes. Determining that might help you decide what you want in terms of both leadership (this board you’re putting together - what kind of personalities, genders, ages, ideas, experience in advocacy, etc do you want on it? Or do you care either way?) membership (male/female/etc?) and purpose and actions.

Yes. It’s still very much a work in progress, but …

The Women Web Developer’s Association is a nonprofit organization, working to empower women of diverse backgrounds to successfully achieve their goals in web development. Our overall aim is to create a support network of confident women within the web development industry, while also providing mentorship and accessible instruction to women of every skill level.

  1. Establish a support network for women pursuing an education or career in web development.
    
  2. Provide a centralized location for industry specific resources and opportunities within web development.
    
  3. Influence the direction of academia, to include more web development programs.
    
  4. Encourage girls and young women to pursue degrees and careers within the web development industry.
    

I can see how points 2 and 3 would be relevant for male members.

Main Initiatives

1. Establish and create a network of support
One of the most important goals of the WWDA is to establish a community of women dedicated to supporting each other in their careers. This community serves as a support network and provides a communications channel for members to hold conversations regarding industry related topics, as well as provide mentoring programs for those just starting out who need more specialized support and guidance.

Our mentoring program consists of a group of qualified volunteers who advise WWDA members, either through forum communications or through a series of workshops, webinars and “one-on-ones”. The overall goal of the mentoring program is to provide less experienced members with “lessons learned” and other practical experienced based guidance. A full mentoring program outline is currently in development and open for suggestion.

The WWDA will also house a community forum, which will serve as a resource tool, a platform to ask and answer questions specific to the industry, and to provide a method of communication between members.

2. Web Development awareness in secondary and postsecondary educational institutions
To meet the goals of the WWDA, “to pursue degrees and careers within the web development industry,” and to “influence the direction of academia,” the WWDA will to work directly with secondary and postsecondary educational institutions to increase awareness of educational programs and available career options.

This will be accomplished on the secondary educational front through establishing and/or providing funding for after school activities focused on the industry, providing presentations and workshops, and assisting schools in bringing relevant student electives to the curriculum.

WWDA will encourage establishment of local chapters of WWDA at post-secondary institutions and support post-secondary educational activities such as providing campus workshops and sponsoring on-campus clubs that share a similar mission/purpose.

Again, this is all totally in-draft

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So I’m walking out, will respond in more detail, but I guess I mean that men could be involved - not so much that you have to allow it to focus on both. So, using me as an example, I’d be interested in encouraging school aged girls to pursue technical roles, programming, computers, whatever - whether that’s helping to find teachers and classes for schools, or brainstorming ideas on how to make it more appealing, or etc. That doesn’t at all mean you’d feel obligated to focus your efforts on males as well - just that maybe it’d be good to accept input from them, as we can see the problem too (some of us). Maybe it’s a question of what a member is - is a member a sort of student or person being helped, or is a member a person who’s in a mentor or think-tank kind of role, or are there both at once, or ?

I also think there’s merit to the idea of some of the activities - say, tutoring and guest speaking - to be provided for females, by females. As you implicate, gender specific role models can matter. Sometimes a lot, depends on the people involved I suppose.

Anyway, be back later.

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You want it? Just do it! (Did I just sound like Nike? :p)

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Jeffery - that is what (in a worse way when i tried to say it) i was trying to say. what is it hoping to achieve and why is that gender specific.

Having a close group of friends that can discuss issues and try and resolve them together is surely a good thing.
I don’t see anything wrong if it happened that the board running it all happened to all be women, assuming they aren’t just on the board because they are women as that is no better or worse than it being all men because they are men.

It could also be dangerous though, for example, if some women were to tell young girls that they shouldn’t be held back by ‘men’ as it could foster a negative view of men and potentially make them unable to work alongside men. They should be being told they shouldn’t be held back by anyone. I’ve had a female boss who hated men because they were men. She for example wouldn’t be a good role model for young girls. Which is not what you are trying to achieve by the sound of it.

I am still not 100% convinced though that, in the UK, the reason women are not going into computer science is because they are being discouraged as the forbes article suggests. Growing up in a mixed school i was never treated differently to the girls we all did the same classes, we all went to the same college, we are went to the same universities. They had/have the same if not more (60% of graduates are women according to the article) chances to do computer science (i actually did Environmental sci). maybe it’s just not an appealing subject, especially when you can make a lot more money in Law or medicine. But that could just be my experience in the UK, i don’t know the pressures in the USA for example.

Maybe more of a rhetorical question but does anyone care as much that road crews and garbage collectors are almost entirely male? should we be encouraging women to do more manual labor roles?

Personally i think this is a good thread and hopefully everyone has taken a little from it. Hopefully it will also help you deal with any negativity you may encounter as having clear pre-thought out responses to difficult questions must surely be a good thing.

I was the only female developer in a large corporate team for over a decade and I’ve heard all of these arguments rehashed a thousand times. I have feelings both ways, but was erring more towards the “we are making more of this than necessary”. Then I went to Webstock and heard Janet Crawford speak about gender biases and it blew my mind.

I cannot recommend watching this highly enough: The Surprising Neuroscience of Gender Inequality

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I would recommend adding something in there about “offering role models”, which I think would be really useful—for the reasons offered above.

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Just because its cold where you are doesn’t mean global warming isn’t a thing, that is happening, and is a fact.

Bunch of women talking with each other and supporting each other with the hopes and intention of diversifying the industry, good on them, our industry needs all the help it can get in that regard. Us men sure haven’t figured it out. If they need anything from us, the first question shouldn’t be “why aren’t men allowed” it should be “how can we help”. Yet to hear a solid argument as to why men should be allowed, btw, if anything this thread shows the group would be way less productive.

Like any thing that is a complex problem, there isn’t any singular root cause. Women being discouraged, lack of support, lack of role models, magic, harassment, abuse, misogyny, ignorance, discrimination, inappropriate actions, inability to change, men feeling threatened, douchbags, etc… If you haven’t witnessed or experienced any of that you are either living in some sort of nirvana, or completely oblivious and ignorant to your surroundings and are probably part of the problem. Any group of people, that is trying to tackle any of these issues is A-OK in my books and has my full support.

Until you have personally participated in an all women group trying to support and encourage women in our industry and have first hand experience of what went well and what did not, instead of telling her that her approach is wrong, offer her your help, find case studies of things that did work, things that didn’t work, things that are making a difference, things she can take and internalise in her endeavour, things that will help her succeed. Actually supporter her, because what she is trying to do is incredibly important and if it even makes the smallest amount of change for the better its a massive win for our industry as a whole.

Also the group being all women, does it actually separate them further? Are you going to treat them differently because they are part of that group? Are you going to treat other women differently because of the group? Does it in some way have any negative impact on you what so ever? Does it hurt your feelings? Does it actually make you feel excluded? Honestly if you answered yes to any of those questions, once again… part of the problem. Do you even actually want to be part of the group or are you just arguing for arguments sake? Are you actually passionate about participating in her group and working together to produce a positive change in this world, or do you just want to have your opinions heard and make shitty arguments about firefighters and birds, seriously wtf.

@sarahfrantz if you need any help let any of us at SitePoint know, we all think diversity is extremely important.
cc: @kelle @Ophelie @Jasmine @Adam @Tom @orodio @katja_bak @ericawass

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@orodio I have no words other than thank you! :clap:

This would be incredibly helpful and would LOVE to see this if anyone has suggestions.

Again, thank you. :slight_smile:

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Totally agree and will definitely work that in. Thank you.

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‘or completely oblivious and ignorant to your surroundings and are probably part of the problem.’ interesting how if you are not even aware of the problems you are the problem by default in your opinion.

I have asked numerous times for example of the the pressures and issues faced so i can further understand what is needed. How will i be able to empathize with ‘women’ if i don’t even know what the problem(s) is(are). As i said i’d rather a place where people (male, female, black, white, pink, blue whatever) can discuss issues they have faced and solve them together. Are ‘Men’ incapable of understanding/providing support/suffering from some of the same issues?

I find it funny even referring to ‘women’ as a separate group of people as i work with ‘people’ (which include both men and women) everyday. If we have an issue we talk about it. If i was to suggest that we have separate men and womens boards on our intranet i’d be hauled up in front of HR. Sure some people out there treat women/men/black/gays/chinese etc differently, but i’m more for a collective ‘this is not acceptable’ response rather than spilt off into groups and further define the difference between ‘them’ and ‘us’.

I’m a member of a car forum and women are vastly outnumbered on there but if anyone abused them for being a women, i can be pretty sure 99% of the men on there would defend that person. We don’t suggest they have a female car forum so they can go and discuss ‘female’ issues. A lot of women have more car knowledge than me and can out drive me for sure.

The beauty of the internet is you can do what you want. Try it see if it works, if it doesn’t adapt and try something else.
Best of luck

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I wouldn’t call the inclusions from male members counter-productive. In fact, some really good questions/suggestions came from them. For instance, how do you police membership? If a male decides to get in, he just registers with a female nickname and you might never discover his real identitity. So technically you can’t limit it to to females only. Even if you decide to check members by videochats, for example, it’s not that difficult to find a female to pose as him, and again, you can’t stop him.

Aside from the technical limitations, since males are part of the problem and the solution, let’s give them the right to explain their point of view. From what I’ve seen, quite a lot of males are open to discussion and their point of view isn’t hard-coded. As I mentioned in my previous post (about my male colleague, who wouldn’t even hear a female to reinstall his computer), a man with a brain can be convinced that there is more to what he has personally seen so far.

"Until you have personally participated in an all women group trying to support and encourage women in our industry and have first hand experience of what went well and what did not, instead of telling her that her approach is wrong, "

Formally, I am not sure if I’m eligible to be a member. It all depends on how Web Developer is defined in this case. If it is somebody who codes full-time, I’m not in. When I said I am not a developer, I meant I don’t do this for a living (and hope I will never have to simply because I might be not so bad at it but there are a gazillion of things I am much better at and I’d rather do them than write bugs - even without me, there is no shortage of bug writers, male or female :slight_smile: :)).

I do some WordPress design and occasionally coding, and in the past I’ve used other programming languages, too, but technically I do not qualify myself as a developer. In fact, I might be a very bad example because even though I am not a total failure as a programmer - as I’ve mentioned, I’ve seen much worse than me, male and female, I chose to go in other IT areas - Web development and otherwise, technical and more business-oriented. Probably many other females made the same choice - they can code more or less decently but they’d rather do other stuff.

In a sense, similarly to Noppy and some of the other posters before me, I’ve adopted a sort of a unisex/gender-neutral approach. When the environment is friendly, this works for me. In those cases, when I personally have had problems because of my gender, usually it was with people who had different kinds of issues, how to say. And the sad thing is that (as a percentage) I had more problems with females than with males. I mean, let’s say I’ve worked with 20 females so far. I had problems with like 4 or 5 of them - or 20-25%. I’ve worked with hundreds of males - simply because there are more of them - let’s say 200 and I had problems with probably 10-15 males at most, which is 5-7.5%, i.e. in absolute numbers much higher but at the same time, times lower than the problem ratio with my own gender.

I had problems with people with issues - like female co-workers who were very unhappy in their personal life and hated me simply because I wasn’t in the same boat, or that I was a better coder than them, having in mind I am not a coder, etc. Or guys who were not men enough to admit that a woman can be better than them at tech - maybe not as a whole, but at least in a particular situation. With everybody else, regardless their gender, it was a pleasure to work.

As for being supportive to each other, it depends on what you need to support. For instance, how would you react in a situation where one female developer is sleeping with her boss and is getting quite a favorable treatment because of this, like pay raises, no work (the other developers in the team were doing her part of the work while she was way too busy to chat, browse online, think of the next mean trick to play on her colleagues, etc.) and so on? In one of my previous jobs we had this. Formally company rules didn’t ban this. Do you support this or not?

Not to keep you tense, I will tell you how it went. Some of the other female developers envied her. Some of the male colleagues didn’t see anything wrong - when you go up the company ladder, chicks are part of the package. Those of us, both male and female, who dared to voice our resentment, one by one had to leave the company because we became the targets of her malice and dirty tricks and the Bigger Boss accused us of being jealous, being not-cooperative, not team players, troublemakers and all the other bla-bla-bla, so we basically had to leave because our lives there became way too impossible. Do we really need to encourage more female developers like her to join development because there is shortage of women? :smile:

Or another case. One of the girls whom I directed towards design, had to quit her first (and unfortunately) only job in design because of that bitch of a boss she had. The boss was really incompetent at design, was changing the tasks all the time and 10 minutes later demanded to get them done, was screaming profanities at the girl, was even insulting her about her looks and intelligence. The girl stood this for a month or so and quite naturally quit.

I tried to tell her that it’s not always that bad but honestly, at entry level you don’t have that much choice and the possibility of landing another low-paid and high-stress job wasn’t just hypothetic. I suggested to her to go freelance but she was still a beginner and didn’t have the confidence she would make it on her own. Later that year she enrolled back at school in a totally different area and is done with IT (most likely) forever. I agree, it was really a rough start and if she didn’t have other options, she would wipe her tears and go back to the office but since she had quite a lot of other choices, she simply didn’t have to stand all this.

I’m definitely not saying it’s always that bad. I’m just giving some examples from what I’ve seem/heard.

I don’t believe such things can happen at the Association - if not for something else, you go there voluntarily, it’s not a job you have to stand, so in this aspect even if it is female-only, I am almost 100 per cent certain it can’t possibly go that dirty but since you mentioned women supporting each other in IT, I decided to throw a couple of quick examples.

Finally, if I’m eligible to participate, I might get involved with the forums. I can’t promise it will be on a regular basis but even now and then, when I have what to say, I will do it.

Just one more post from me because it will be a busy week for me and I might not even be able to read the thread.

You really need to define eligibility criteria. Aside from me, I could think of quite a lot of guys and gals who do Web development but this is not their sole area of expertise. Some are developers and designers, others are only devs but they write Web and other stuff (like Web Java and Enterprise Java, plus some mobile from time to time). Also, do you need to be in Web dev NOW. For instance, you might be on a maternity leave right now but before that and after that you are a Web dev. On one hand, the broader the group, the more interesting the discussion but it’s so much easier to lose focus.

After I reread one of the examples in my previous post, I’d better clarify it. If you got the idea the girl was an easy quitter this isn’t so. She will fight for dear life, when she is convinced in something. In addition to the treatment she was given, one more reason I could think of was that this was (as far as I know) her first job not only in IT but in general. She was like 24-25 at the time and it’s probably more hurtful when you are that old, have a college degree and are treated like this than when you are a teen and you have no degree at all (after all, you can hope that when you get a degree, things get better).

While she was still at college I told her a few times to get a job - just to get some real life job experience and to pass the apprentice/beginner stage while still at college but she and mostly her mother wouldn’t even hear. Similarly to men who do not allow their wives to work because to them this means they are not a man enough to provide for their family, her mother was insulted at the very idea the girl might work while still at college because the mother took this as a slap to her (and her husband’s) ability to take care of their child, who technically was already an adult. I am not saying the girl is spoiled, simply her mother was over-protective and this sort of contributed to the shock at her first job.

One more example, this time a positive one. A former female coworker of mine, who was hired to be a C programmer was really bad at it. She wanted to be a programmer, was still a beginner, had some real life C experience in a previous job, but C was way out of her league. She became a Java programmer and she was just fine.

I can think of a few other similar cases when the only thing that needed change was the programming language, or a subarea of it (like Web Java vs Entereprise Java). But honestly this applies to both men and women. In the case of my former colleague, if she wasn’t given the opportunity to go into Java, she would have quit and tried her luck in a different company - I doubt she would have quitted IT as a whole. It’s good there was the Java opportunity inside the same company and that they had understanding for her.

Another female coworker of mine and a very close friend had a similar story but without the happy end. She was a Java programmer and definitely didn’t like it. In my opinion, she would have been much better in PHP or a similar language but most of her colleagues and (mutual) friends (mainly the male ones) wouldn’t let her go. Formally she is still a Java developer but she is not that good at it, doesn’t enjoy it but (sarcasm) she is not labelled a traitor by all our Java friends. She is in her 40s, has a young child and definitely now it’s much harder for her to switch to another language, or another area in IT or otherwise than it would have been when she was still in her early 30s. I don’t think all this pressure to keep her a Java developer just for the sake of it did her good.

It would be nice to hear more such stories. If this is taking the topic too far from its initial purpose, maybe a new topic can be started.

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Maybe you should start a new topic. It was an interesting read though :slight_smile:

Watch the presentation that I linked to. It answers that question very specifically.

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I’ve been following this thread for a while and I just need to say some of the responses are blowing my mind, in both good and bad ways. I think it’s extremely important and valuable discussion though, and I encourage it to continue!

I think a lot of the gender inequality in society is systemic. This situation has been status quo for as long as most of us can probably remember. That’s why I think many people, men and women alike, are so blind to the issue(s) - as frustrating as that may be to the more aware.

However, the issue is now bubbling up the surface of wider society, and it’s extremely hard to ignore the multitude of statistics, stories, references and discussions on the topic. To simply say that you ‘don’t see it’ is kind of redundant. Being a man and saying you don’t notice the inequalities that women face almost sounds like a joke. I don’t want to get all Gen Y but, like, of course you don’t. I think @orodio’s point about being part of the problem if you are ignorant of the problem is extremely on point and apt. It’s not ‘interesting’, nor is it a stab or an insult. It’s just evidence of the fact that these things are so ingrained in our society and systemic that those not directly impacted (and even sometimes those who are), are completely oblivious and then discount the entire issue.

Edit: Sorry to pull it further off topic, too. Perhaps we should start a separate thread.

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@Noppy The fundamental problem with your approach here is that you’re stuck on the idea that men and women aren’t different. It is true that they shouldn’t be treated differently, or that they shouldn’t have different opportunities, but the fact of the matter is that women are treated differently from men IN SOCIETY. Until we balance this out it’s gonna be a problem. (Seriously, watch the video @HAWK posted, it’s important that you realise that saying “I don’t treat people differently” doesn’t really cut it because we all have biases that we’re unaware of.)

Counter-intuitive as it may seem, treating people as homogenous isn’t always inclusive. This is a really really important point. When you say that you don’t see gender or race or religion or sexual orientation you can inadvertently erase a part of someone’s identity. To learn more about this sort of thing read up on colour-blindness (colour in the sense of race) and why it’s problematic.

I’ll take you at your word when you say you really want to learn, so:

Step 1: stop putting ‘women’ and ‘men’ in quotes, they’re real things, not hypothetical or disputed.

Step 2: listen. If someone comes and tells you there’s an issue, don’t say “oh I’ve never experienced that”.

Step 3: google it. There is so much information on this topic available on the internet, so much discussion that’s already happening, so many groups already devoted to this problem; it’s not up to other people to educate you. In fact there’s decades worth of research on gender studies alone – not even touching the other kinds of issues we have as an industry. Suggested queries are “issues facing women in tech”, “gender bias in the workplace”, etc etc.

Another really important thing to read up on is microaggressions and microinvalidations. It’s not always something big, and this is the important thing so listen close: it’s not always something you will recognise. Because, as is addressed extremely well in that video @HAWK posted, we all have blinkers on essentially.

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I don’t understand this. If you’re chosing someone for a work and you don’t want to discriminate, why should yout take into account gender, race or religion? Unless, of course, the position you’re offering goes against a core value.

But let’s say that you’re offering a job as a video game programmer. Then gender, race or religion should be taken out of the equation. You care about what they know, their experience as programmers and if (s)he will fit in the team.

Also everybody is different so it is impossible to treat people homogenously because everyone has different characteristics. So is your salary lower because you’re a woman? or because you don’t have all the skills necessary to do an superb job? Or may you do a superb job but… you can’t really fill every spot that should be required for that job… It is hard to tell when there’s discriminaton and when there isn’t

More generally speaking, men and women are different and that’s a fact. We evolved differently, our brains think and behave differently. There are many studies that say so. Are those studies biased? Maybe. But that men and women are different is obvious. Of course, you can find a woman that can be physically stronger than some men, maybe even stronger than some strong men… but you’ll always find a man stronger than that woman. Because even a weak man is, normally, physically stronger than many women.

That doesn’t mean that a woman can’t compete with some creativity. :smile:

But basically, what I’m saying is that we’re not equal… not only men and women but even if you compare person to person and take gender, or race, or religion… or whatever, out of the equation

That’s the point. They aren’t treated equally, but they should be. We -are- equal. We -are- different, but equal. Did you mean men and women aren’t the same or…?

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