Just to add to the debate. Personally i side on the why separate yourselves further. I’m a guy and i work for a charity which is female dominated (4:1 women to men). I don’t treat them differently and we get on fine. I don’t know the answer to why there aren’t more women in IT but i personally would hazard a guess in that in general it does not interest them. Sure that is a broad sweeping statement but growing up very few girls i knew gave a crap about computing or mechanics. They didn’t want to be covered in oil or be soldering bits of wire together, skinning knuckles and getting bruises and the like. There was nothing to stop them. I think its far too easy to look for blame and say that men are stopping women doing whatever. I watched an Archeological program the other day about a Women in the 60’s who led expeditions into south American jungles and is hugely respected in her field. She just got on with it rather than say she was held back and that was in a very sexist period of time.
I am a little surprised though that women would feel excluded in an online environment as with avatars and usernames i generally find it hard to know whether its a women or man and actually don’t really care which as its more about solving the problem.
I guess an interesting question to ask yourself is ‘are men and women different’? (not better or worse just different).
I am probably still a little sexist though as if my house was burning down and i had to be carried down a ladder on someones shoulder i’d rather a 6’2 guy carry me than a 5’6 women. maybe that’s wrong who knows.
I find it sexist because it conveniently forgets that women can also be 6’ 2" or more and it carries the implied assumption that no women exist that can meet the demands of certain jobs making men somehow superior. If that isn’t sexist I don’t know what is.
First off, I have a close dear friend who we gently tease as being an amazon because of she is 6’ 2", and I had a girlfriend (non-romantic) in college who was 6’ 5". She could have easily been a firefighter, she had the strength for it
And what about guys who are 5’2"? They exist too y’know and the ones among them that are weaklings aren’t suited to be a firefighter either.
Don’t confuse equality with equal opportunity. Women deserve equal opportunity to do whatever they want. Granted, physically demanding jobs will skew towards men, but those women both capable and willing to perform the task should be granted that opportunity.
I read it alright, the sexist implication that “all men are taller and stronger than all women” is quite clearly expressed, and quite demonstrably false. If you don’t think so go have a conversation with one of the few women who decided to get into UFC, I’m sure they’d be glad to clear it up for you.
For unlike contests of intelligence, contests of strength are unambiguous. Because of the Dunning-Kruger effect a smart person can intellectually thrash a moron and the moron will walk away thinking he’s won the argument, his ignorance shielding him from the magnitude of his stupidity. When a strong person thrashes a weakling even the dimmest and dumbest weakling can figure out he lost the fight while he picks his teeth up off the floor.
Ok, put another way: assuming that it is a requirement of the job that a fire-fighter be able to carry an adult (weighing however much) from a burning building, then anyone who cannot meet that requirement should not be allowed to become a fire-fighter (regardless of gender).
This will invariably result in more men than women becoming fire-fighters, as it is a physically demanding job and, as you say, such jobs skew towards men.
All I was trying to say is that in such cases, an imbalance of men to women is not sexist.
That’s what I meant when I said “don’t confuse equality for equal opportunity.” Women will always be under represented in fields like that, though I think the majority of the skew is due to culture, not physical shortcomings.
Heck, women are over-represented in some things due to physiology. Because of how the game is played basketball players of both sexes have to take care to avoid ACL tears, but these are much more frequent in women because of their femur leaves the pelvis at a sharper angle because their pelvis is wider, putting more stress on the tendons and ligaments involved. Acknowledging that sort of thing is acknowledging physiology.
It wasn’t the fact that was sexist, it was the expression and the underlying implication I’ve already called out. I’m fairly certain Noppy didn’t mean anything by it and likely wasn’t thinking about how that statement might sound if taken from a different perspective.
I’ve always gotten along better with women than other men for whatever reason and I’ve listened to what they complain about the most often. It’s things like this - the casual sexism that the speaker may not even be aware their expressing (cause some women do this sort of thing to)- that can be the most bothersome because it’s so pernicious.
I’m all for women, men or anyone in between doing what they are fit to do. If women want to be firefighters that’s fine as long as they are strong enough to do that and same goes for men. Everyone is not equal and in general I am correct in saying men are physically stronger than women. Men have far more lean muscle as men are designed for a different purpose to women. That is also not to say some women are not stronger than some men but we are talking generally. The animal kingdom generally follows the same principle. Many more males are produced than females are in general males take more risks and end up dead, they are made bigger and stronger to compete. There are exceptions but generally the case. But this does not mean women are stupid or weak or incapable, it’s just the way it is. Women are able to generally cope better with endurance situations
But i don’t want this to get off topic and spoil an interesting conversation/debate. As i hopefully said in a website environment i would prefer to be inclusive and talk to both men and women (just like in this thread) rather than go to a men or women only website. Not all women understand all women and the same for men.
[quote=“Noppy, post:48, topic:113106”]I’m all for women, men or anyone in between doing what they are fit to
do. If women want to be firefighters that’s fine as long as they are
strong enough to do that and same goes for men. Everyone is not equal
and in general I am correct in saying men are physically stronger than
women. [/quote]
It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it. There’s a difference between saying “men are stronger than women” and “men tend to be stronger than women”.
[quote]Men have far more lean muscle as men are designed for a different
purpose to women. That is also not to say some women are not stronger
than some men but we are talking generally. The animal kingdom generally
follows the same principle. [/quote]
one of the main problems with modern media. Short bits of text are hard to ensure that they are written and understood as they are meant. Which is partly my issue with the suggestion of a womens only group. It implies that it is exclusive of men and that men are completely different to women. Which is probably not what the OP has in mind.
Is it better to say i want to start a male only website than men are stronger than women? which is more sexist?
confused that you say ‘no’ but then link to a wiki paragraph that says there are clear differences between the sexes? You even said in an earlier post that women in basket ball suffer more due to pelvic differences?? could you expand a bit as to why you consider my statement wrong.
Would it be possible for you guys to reply as a new thread and start this general differences-of-the-sexes/sexism/etc debate in another one? OP thread seems to have been completely hijacked here, as it’s asking about interest in an organization.
I am interested to know what the pros and cons of having a female only website are. Not being flippant just interested in both sides of the debate.
eg will providing a women only group actually provide a significant advantage in terms of support over a gender neutral env. Are there any examples where this works well already? womans institute etc
will this create more of a divide or less?
What if you are male and consider yourself to be female? realistically how would you police membership?
Why do you begrudge a woman for wanting to explore the possibility of having a women’s only group when men have had fraternities for centuries? That’s what I don’t get - she doesn’t owe you an explanation and it’s rude to ask.
You are assuming that i was in a ‘fraternity’ which we don’t actually have in the UK. I don’t begrudge her anything. How can it be rude to ask a question about the posted topic? I asked what the pros and cons were so she could explore the options. If she/he whoever provided logical reasons for having a women only club then fair enough i’ve learnt something that i can apply in the future, if not then perhaps they have learnt something.
Or i could not ask and remain ignorant and never change my thinking.
People had slaves for centuries but it doesn’t make it right.
Sexism works both ways. If i came on here and said ‘I want male web developers only as I’m thinking of setting up a male only forum, women need not apply’ do you not think i would have a few more ‘rude’ questions to explain why i thought that was a good idea.
amusing …
’ I’ve listened to what they complain about the most often. It’s things
like this - the casual sexism that the speaker may not even be aware
their expressing (cause some women do this sort of thing to)- that can
be the most bothersome because it’s so pernicious.’
as although you have listened to women (all of them?) complain about casual sexism you can’t recognize that setting up a women only board is just as sexist??
Maybe you live is a more sexist country i don’t know but both of my sisters are highly respected scientists (being women never held them back) and i don’t hear them complaining about casual sexism at all, only that men don’t hold the door open anymore. I still do!
I never really got the sense that the proposal was to create something exclusive to women, as such. It’s just something to support them.
I gave an example of my experience as a male teacher above. Another example I could offer is when I first got into web design, I looked up to a lot of the famous web designers/developers who were blogging, writing books, speaking at conferences etc. They were amazing, but all seemed to be overseas, in places like the US and UK, while I was stuck down here in the Land of Exile (Australia). There was this very subtle, back-of-the-mind feeling that we down here somehow don’t have a significant voice in this industry. That probably sounds silly, but that’s how we humans work. If you feel in some way marginalized, you start to doubt your place.
Of course, I soon found out that Australia is full of brilliant web people. It just wasn’t obvious at first. But it makes a difference to have role models in the same boat as you.
One ‘pro’ I can think of for having a women’s only group is that less time could be spent defending the idea that women (or under-represented groups in general) may face different struggles/have different needs, and more time actually addressing them.
The fact is that women do face issues in this industry that men don’t — this remains true whether you know someone who is affected or not.
It’s kind of like me setting up a support group exclusively for left handed people (scissors, am I right?) I’d not be saying that left handed people need to peel off from society, purchase half of Siberia, and found a utopia free of whiteboards. I’d also not be saying that left handed people are FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT to right handed people. I’m just saying, “hey, here’s a thing we have to deal with that you don’t. Maybe this one time, I want the conversation framed from the perspective of a left handed person”.
Exactly though. Traditionally science and technology has been male dominated. Hell, traditionally women didn’t even have jobs. We’ve come a long way, let’s keep going. Let’s investigate and fix whatever it is that’s stopping [insert under-represented-group-here] from entering the the workforce.
Ok so i can see some of the points of your argument but to explore this further then could we expand on a few points.
What are the issues that women face in this industry that men don’t? If i don’t know what they i can never learn how to change anything that i may or may not do. I am still not convinced having a closed group would actually significantly help. Do any of the issues facing ‘women’ actually also face many men? would we not benefit from just talking about them together.
I worry that a women turning up as a member of ‘the womens web consortium’ or whatever equivalent group name would instantly be treated differently as they have already raised a flag that they consider themselves to be different.
Your analogy of left handed-ness is not quite right for me as being left handed is a physical attribute which does affect writing on a board due to the left to right writing the western world uses, or using a machine designed for right handed people. Being female does not stop you writing code or designing a website. The main issue i am guessing/assuming is that within a male dominated industry you (women?) may feel (rightly or wrongly) that you are not given the same jobs, promotions, experience? or am i missing something.
I am not trying to be provocative i just ask questions so i can learn, adapt, change.
I’m wondering if the trouble here is the inconsistency of the world around us. I’ve heard several times here people saying “In their experience” sort of things.
In some people’s experience, women getting jobs as developers have a harder time acquiring the position, get offered or paid less, and have to put up with discrimination in the workplace.
In other peoples’ experience, women getting jobs as developers have no discernible differences from men.
That’s because people, places, and cultures are different. So I think you can draw a couple of things from this.
Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t ever happen. People who say “This isn’t an issue, stop crying about it” are wrong and they need to stop and think and listen.
Just because it does happen doesn’t mean it’s universal. People who say “Women are always discriminated against in this field” are wrong, and they need to stop and think and listen.
People in general should figure out how we can resolve the discrimination and disparity while not creating more. Can a support group of some kind for women in IT be good for helping identify specific issues and create resolutions? Yes. Could it be a force that ends up causing women more issues in the field Yes. It’s a thing that needs careful approach - the same with race. Too much uniqueness and set-apart attitude and special attention to specific groups of any kind can simply result in more discrimination, now in multiple directions in multiple situations. Too little and as @kelle said, the issues never actually get discussed because of debates like the one occurring here.
One note though - I don’t believe that a women-in-development activist type group needs to be limited to women members. It could be but it shouldn’t have to be. I think that’s engaging in more narrow-mindedness. Speaking as a father to one girl, and about to sort of become a father figure to another, and the partner to a very career oriented woman, I feel like I have a strong vested interest in women’s rights in the workplace. I feel like I could have a lot to say about it.
It’s similar to LGBT activism. Is everyone who participates LGBT? Of course not. Why would they be? It’s people of the world standing up for each other’s rights.
Now me, I’m not a vocal activist for anything. I’m not very outspoken in my day to day life. Or even all that much on the Internet. If I was though? I’d have marched in the race marches in the US, if I’d been alive, though not black. I’d fight for LGBT rights, though I’m not LGBT. And I’d fight for women’s rights to equal pay, equal opportunities, etc in the workplace though I’m not a woman.
I would just want to do it without creating more bias. That happens too often today with activist groups.