We Talked CSS Layouts with the Experts.

Sarah Hawk

This morning (down under) saw the latest in our series of live chat sessions, this time it was Talk CSS Layouts with the Experts. Our experts were the ever popular Paul O’Brien (author of The Ultimate CSS Reference) and several SitePoint Forum staff, who proved themselves to be invaluable when things got busy.

If you weren’t part of the session, you may find the extended transcript to be a bit much reading, so I’ve put together a list of resources that were mentioned in the session.

You can sign up for email reminders of upcoming sessions here.

Resources:

http://perishablepress.com/awesome-new-css3-selectors/

http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/

http://www.virtuosimedia.com/dev/css/ultimate-ie6-cheatsheet-how-to-fix-25-internet-explorer-6-bugs

http://www.css-lab.com/demos/nav/inline-block/x-brwsr-node-fix.html

http://www.netmagazine.com/features/future-css-layouts

http://www.sitepoint.com/books/htmlcss1/

http://www.sitepoint.com/books/html3/

http://border-image.com/

http://caniuse.com/

 

And here is the full transcript:

HAWK HAWK
Ok guys, it’s kickoff time. Let’s talk CSS. Does anyone have a question or problem that they’re dealing with?
Andrew Andrew

I heard that if you put * {display: none} at the bottom of your CSS, it makes everything perfect

ralph.m ralph.m
@Andrew Some designs could well benefit from that, I’m sure. :p
Andrew Andrew
yeah, when making layouts using display: inline-block, there’s always a niggling gap between the elements
spacebee… spacebeers
What’s the most exciting CSS3 development on the horizon?
nicksh nicksh
se font-size: 0 on parent
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Andrew – Yes there is a fix using display:table on a parent and a few other rules. I;ll dig them out for you
Andrew Andrew
html
spacebee… spacebeers
@Andrew – you can remove it with font-size: 0 on the parent element
acrevola acrevola
is it possibile to ask for a quick compatibility test of my new website? it will launched tomorrow and I wonder if is “in topic” to ask for a fast review here in this chat
dprophet dprophet
Might just be me (probably is) but a hard reset should leave no gaps on any elements?
rctneil rctneil
Here is a question relating indirectly to CSS. I’m posting a link as it takes ages to retype the question and get my point across correctly:http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11528180/chrome-inspector-hover-issue/11528729#comment15240166_11528729
DublinDu… DublinDude
With regards to Responsive layouts, I am using the fluid grid feature within Dreamweaver CS6. Would I be better hand coding for more flexibility?
Andrew Andrew
oh, great, font-size: 0, thanks!
HAWK HAWK
@acrevola Post up your URL. I’m sure there will be lurkers that are interested
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – There’s a nice tound up here: http://www.netmagazine.com/features/future-css-layouts
spacebee… spacebeers
thanks @paul.OB, what are you most excited about?
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
DublinDude, handcoding is /always/ better :)
nicksh nicksh
The future is Flexbox ^^
Andrew Andrew
flexbox is good in theory
DublinDu… DublinDude
@scallioXTX I see
dprophet dprophet
@SacllioX true that. You can never 100% trust generated code
Andrew Andrew
in practice is can be inpractical
Paul.OB Paul.OB
Gurami Gurami
Question: How can i attach fonts with CSS, if i have only ttf file?
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
so who are the experts?
acrevola acrevola
thank you. This is the site… tomorrow it will be refined… http://www.lacortedeicreativi.org (is in italian)
HAWK HAWK
@GriffinArtworks Paul O’Brien and several forum staff
spacebee… spacebeers
@gurami – use Font Squirrel
belzax belzax
what is flexbox?
Andrew Andrew
google
rctneil rctneil
@Gurami Use font squrrel to convert and then use @font-face to import
spacebee… spacebeers
@gurami – it does all the conversions for you
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – I’m looking forward to positioned floats
HAWK HAWK
Welcome to anyone that has just joined us. Feel free to introduce yourselves, lurk and watch, or jump in with a question at any time.
tbrown08 tbrown08
I prefer not using the fluid grid for my flexible websites. I like the flexibility of hand coding.
rctneil rctneil
Anyone able to help answer my question?
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
tbrown08 -what?
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – whats the advantage over regular floats?
molona molona
Gurami Gurami
Thanks to all for the answers :) it was really helpful
HAWK HAWK
@rctneil It would be easier if you posted it here, otherwise people have to leave the chat to read it :)
dorak dorak
Hi, I’m new here. I don’t have any specific question.
zuraba zuraba
ra xdeba vapshe? :D dzmakacma gaasheara da ra sastavia ho mshvidobaa? :D
nicksh nicksh
I think that font rendering in Windows is f***ing crap
Andrew Andrew
language!
DublinDu… DublinDude
What is the biggest contributor (CSS) that slows down mobile browsing?
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
looks like you already got your answer on SO rctneil ;)
Willomin… Willomina
Hello everyone, nice to be here
nicksh nicksh
@dublinDude images
acrevola acrevola
if you have any comments, please tag me (@acrevola)
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@DublinDude divitis
rctneil rctneil If you inspect .outer and set the inspector to hover and then try to look at the styles of .inner whilst .outer is still hovered, the hover moves to .inner.This is for this example CodePen:http://codepen.io/rctneil/pen/xCfdB Someone did answer this issue on stack overflow but it didn’t quite solve it. Instead fo re explaining why, here is a copy of the reply I posted: Hmm, Just tried it properly now and it sort of works but not quite. EG: If I choose hover on 1 element, collapse the styles bar and click a sub element, as soon as I reopen the styles panel to see the styles for that, then that elements takes on the hover. I need to see the styles for the sub element when the parent element is the one with the hover
dprophet dprophet
@acrevola When you click an item on the top nav it shows the slide I’m about to move to for a split second THEN slides to it
ralph.m ralph.m
@spacebeers display:inline-block allows things to sit differently on the page. Elements line up nicely without snagging, like you get with floats sometimes.
DublinDu… DublinDude
I heard having multiple linked CSS pages slow things down too as there are too many http requests, any truth in this?
nicksh nicksh
extremely large images are the biggest slowdown in performance, especially if resized with CSS
nofel nofel
in past, i had been working with layout. just te psd to html and css, and i had been gr but after that job. i don’t know what is my title or what to do more in my career.
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – ah ok. That does sound useful.
DublinDu… DublinDude
So in effect we should see mobile sites in the same regard to sites created 10 years ago prior to broadband?
dprophet dprophet
No worries – I’m running Chrome btw
ralph.m ralph.m
@rctneil I think what you want works better with Firebug, TBH.
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@ralph.m but inline-block isn’t fully IE supported?
rctneil rctneil
@ralph.m Ok, I’ll go and have a go in FF and FB, Not that I like FF but if FB helps me solve this correctly then i’m all for it
I’ll let you knowhow I get on
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@rctneil chrome is better
Gurami Gurami
Can someone provide some useful book or articles about CSS3 new functions
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@jess.irwin no it’s not, display-block is >= IE7 IIRC
nicksh nicksh
what do you people think about clearfix
nofel nofel
chorme is good bt its firebug isn’t
HAWK HAWK
Can anyone answer this question for @nofel? in past, i had been working with layout. just te psd to html and css, and i had been gr but after that job. i don’t know what is my title or what to do more in my career.
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
clearfix is outdated, use overflow: hidden on the container instead (where possible)
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@jess.irwin – inline-block is supported in IE back to ie5 for inline elements. For block elements you set them to inline and then use a haslayout trigger suitable for inline elements (such as zoom)
ralph.m ralph.m
@jess.irwin Maybe not in older IEs, but with a 1% userbase now or less, mey …
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@nofel chrome dev tools are second to none IMHO
molona molona
acrevola: I like the site :D It works well in Windows 7 FF 13.0.1, Opera 12, IE 9 and Chrome 20.0.1132.57 m… Opera leaves more room than the others when you click Conrerenze… but it still looks good
nofel nofel
true
HAWK HAWK
@nofel, your question is a little confusing. Can you try rewording it?
Anna Anna
Reading a book at the moment that says semantic elements such as strong should not be styled using CSS, is this correct.
spacebee… spacebeers
@nofel – are you asking what to learn next?
nicksh nicksh
@nofel you’re a front-end web developer :D
dprophet dprophet
@nofel – Be the best at it to begin with. Code in HTML5 and become a master of canvas and javascript. You’ll easily find work that way
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@nofel you can even live edit mobile sites on Android ICe Cream Sandwich!
rctneil rctneil
@griffinArtworks I use Chrome mainly but if the webkit inspector doesn;t work for a certain task, it does make sense to solve that issue elsewhere and then come back, Wouldn’t you say so?
acrevola acrevola
@molona thank you! :)
Ton Ton
@griffinArtworks – agreed, Chrome dev tools are great
nicksh nicksh
@griffinArtworks is that in Chrome for Android?
dprophet dprophet
I don’t know what you code at the moment, but strive for more complex designs – don’t settle for designs someone did on a forum for $5
spacebee… spacebeers
Does anyone know why the :contains selector wasn’t taken any further?
DublinDu… DublinDude
Will IE 10 support CSS3 columns?
ralph.m ralph.m
@nofel It’s probably hard for most people to survive on layouts alone. Might be worth getting into more front end area, like JavaScript, or some programming as well?
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@rctneil, your issue comes from not being fully acquainted with chrome dev tools
nofel nofel
my work can be seen at www.emarworkx.com/my-work
dprophet dprophet
@nofel If you don’t know how to code the design right now then it’s the right design to work how.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Anna – nearly all elements can be styled. Html is the structure and css the appearance. CSS doesn’t care what the element is but the semantics of the html still hold true. Don;’t use elements for what they look like.
DublinDu… DublinDude
@nofel link not working
acrevola acrevola
@nofel link broken
nofel nofel
i had been developing wordpress themes.not good at at it. but stil i do freelance
rctneil rctneil
@griffinArtworks Ok, Please could you let me know how I can deal with my issue directly in Chrome as that would be my preferred option
Gurami Gurami
@nofel link is broken
nofel nofel
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
just dig into it more and you’ll see you don’t actually have to select the dom element on the page you can also browse the html untill you find it and you will see the element highlighted automatically
dprophet dprophet
@nofel recreate themes you see on themeforest for example – the most complex ones you can find
molona molona
@nofel… you said that no one was answering you… but I can’t see a real question… maybe this goes too quick ;)
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
what’s the page?
HAWK HAWK
@molona I think he got his answers :)
nofel nofel
@molona yes now they r thanks to @haWK
Anna Anna
@paul.OB ty, I thought it was weird statement to put to print. Thanks for clarifying
molona molona
@nofer… your link doesn’t work… at least, not for me
@acrevola you’re welcome ;)
Anna Anna
Any advice for designing with media queries, should you design for narrow first and work up?
Andrew Andrew
is it a good idea to generate my CSS via PHP then cache it in memcached, or is there a better way of allowing people to change the page colours? (not really a CSS question per se… but I feel it’s relevent if there is an alternative)
rctneil rctneil
@GriffinArtworks I know that, I do that all day every day. I want to be able to lock the hover to a specific element and the the styles of a sub element, It sounds a simple taks but try it in chrome inspector and it is impossible
HAWK HAWK
Hi to anyone that has entered the room. I am Community Manager at SitePoint and I am moderating this session. Feel free to jump in with a question if you have one, otherwise lurking is fine :)
nofel nofel
i have a thust for JS because of cool sliders in JAvascript and jQuery. i also wanna learn php. programming for me is soewhat hard for me to learn
dont know why
dprophet dprophet
Is there a cheat sheet for common workarounds required for IE?
nicksh nicksh
@Anna I design full width first but it’s your choice
dprophet dprophet
Or a good post on the debugging process – could save hours of wasted time
nofel nofel
althouh i am good with OOD and i scored in top10% wordpress on odesk, where i work as a freelance
Gurami Gurami
@Andrew it is interesting question, anybody can answer it?
Ton Ton
@rctneil – that is the only instance in which I prefer Firebug on FF
rctneil rctneil
@ton, trying FB out now, Thanks
Anna Anna
@nicksh thanks, do you use a framework
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Anna – The general consensus is mobile first and then up but not specifically device fixated. Rather set the media queries for the points where the layout doesn’t work any more.
nicksh nicksh
@anna I use Bootstrap mostly
designpa… designpalatset
DublinDu… DublinDude
Anybody have some good links to responsive layout articles and tutorials?
ralph.m ralph.m
@dprophet Mainly concentrate on good, clean CS and you shouldn’t have to worry much … but test as you go.
dprophet dprophet
Thanks designpa however we don’t support IE6 anyway :D
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@rctneil I am finding it hard to see what your problem is. Even if you are trying to dig down to a sub-element you simply have to browse down the one or two lines from the parent element. The css and the dom highlighting will update as you select different elements of the html
nofel nofel
people tell me i m in wrong field when i work with php.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Andrew – Not really my area = Perhaps remon can answer that cahcing question.
spacebee… spacebeers
Does anyone know why the :contains selector wasn’t taken any further? Seems like it would’ve been really useful
designpa… designpalatset
@drophet who does? :D
nofel nofel
love php because the way how it store and get data.
ralph.m ralph.m
@DubinDu This is the classic, of course: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/responsive-web-design/
DublinDu… DublinDude
@ralph.m Thanks, its well bookmarked!
Ton Ton
@spacebeers – Not sure exactly, but I’ve read it’s too taxing on resources
dprophet dprophet
Thanks @ralph.m That’s of course what we do but I struggle perhaps with knowing “the best way” to build a layout which could ultimately be causing issues down the road
rctneil rctneil
@griffinArtworks Have a look at the stack overflow question I posted and read it carefully as that explains it. I am not new to chrome dev tools, I use them all day every day!
Gurami Gurami
@Andrew cache should help users for fast browsing, so is it really helpful? Did you test page speed with cache and without cache?
molona molona
@spacebeers As far as I know, it hasn’t
nicksh nicksh
@nofel I prefer Ruby because it’s more neat, but we are talking about frontend stuff here
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@nofel that’s not unique to php; all languages are good at manipulating data, that’s what they’re for :D
acrevola acrevola
nofel nofel
@nicksh i m good wth pseudo code but when it comes to pratical php, i seem to fail. y ex told me programming isn’t your field and honestly. after doing css,html. i feel left out
like no1 have that job
molona molona
@Andrew, Remon is great with PHP but I personally don’t see the benefit of creating the CSS with PHP
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@DublinDude – I find it better to code myself than use grids – but others disagree. I just prefer to use code that I have designed myself so can fix it when it goes wrong.
ralph.m ralph.m
@Anna No, best to lay the groundwork of CSS2 and HTML4. HTML5 is stillin development, so it’s shaky ground to build on.
acrevola acrevola
question to everybody: are css-preprocessors a valid tool? do you use it? wich is the best?
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@ralph.m -I am very unsure about that statement
DublinDu… DublinDude
@paul.OB Good advice. I just find the girds help me visualise
nicksh nicksh
@acrevola I think there is too much space occupied by images
rctneil rctneil
@acrevola Sass and compass are amazing
DublinDu… DublinDude
grids
Andrew Andrew

I design mobile first and then if anything else needs to be added (widgets) done through AJAX @Gurami I cache in the browser and also on my server in Memcached.

Gurami Gurami
One more question: is it really good to try transitions and animation with CSS and not with jQuery? I think it is more easy, but have fear of cross browsing problems….
HAWK HAWK
@acrevola You could post your site in the reviews section of our forum http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?12-Website-Design-amp-Content-Reviews-amp-Critiques
spacebee… spacebeers
@acrevola – I’m coming around to the idea but I’m not there yet.
HAWK HAWK
@acrevola – but make sure you read the guidelines first (you have to review 3 other sites first)
nicksh nicksh
@Gurami You can’t do some of the transitions in jQuery
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – No I’m not sure what happened to :contains. A lot of these things are in flux and get talked about and dismissed. We’re all still anziously waiting the parent selector - http://perishablepress.com/awesome-new-css3-selectors/
ralph.m ralph.m
@Gurami Yes, you will have lots of cross browser issues at this stage. Best to stick with JS if you need that reliablilty.
acrevola acrevola
@spacebeers are you talking about pre-processors?
spacebee… spacebeers
thanks @paul.OB, it sounded like a very useful one. It can be hard to keep up with it all
Andrew Andrew
Use jQuery as a fallback if you can, check that the CSS Property exists and if it doesn’t, do in in jQuery
acrevola acrevola
@rctneil is there any cons?
spacebee… spacebeers
@acrevola – yes.
Gurami Gurami
@nicksh i mean just little transitions…
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@ralph.m there is nothing shaky about HTML5, there are certain bleeding edge elements and standards which are not supported in older browsers but these issues are simply something you have to keep in mind. And a reason to design with garceful degradation in mind
nicksh nicksh
I use LESS, but not dynamic
rctneil rctneil
@paul.OB The parent selector looks extremely useful
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
“graceful”
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – yes its always hard to keep up and I must admit I tend not to look at the latest things until they become usable.
Andrew Andrew
@GriffinArtworks I thought you meant “garfield”
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
lol
Anna Anna
@ralph.mn ty I agree but we have the balance the need of delivering current practices to ensure we recruit students, tough one
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
on the inside i did
molona molona
@Andrew your css is cached when it is download… manipulating CSS programmatically can be great in certain situations but I like to stick to a basic CSS that I know and I can rely upon so I know the basic look… and therefore I don’t use php for that
ralph.m ralph.m
@GriffinArtworks The point was that HTML5 is not currently what new students should be presented with as their intro to web design and HTML. That’s all. :)
Kravvitz Kravvitz
Selectors that weren’t added to the CSS3 module generally didn’t have sufficient use-cases, were too complex to implement, or would cause significant performance issues.
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
wow
i think it kinda should be
dprophet dprophet
From a commercial point of view it’s worth keeping in mind the extra time required to build in graceful degradation when using the most recent additions to HTML5 & CSS3 – sometimes it’s just not financially worth it.
nofel nofel
what make a web designer, a web designer
wht he/she shld knw
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – agreed. It’s easy to get carried away with the most cutting edge stuff. I find agency works helps reign me in a bit.
HAWK HAWK
@nofel That is perhaps a bit off topic. Let’s keep it to CSS for this session. :)
nicksh nicksh
@nofel Creativity and Photoshop :D
ralph.m ralph.m
@GriffinArtworks If you only taught students HTML5 currently, their web design experience would be pretty painful. Of course tell them about it …
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
learning HTML5 does not mean ignoring s3c standards or semantic development it simply means starting with new technology, as long as they aware that they will need to use polyfills everything is golden
nofel nofel
ok @hAWK
Andrew Andrew
Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Netbeans, Illustrator and Fireworks makes a web designer
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
s3c =w3c
yalvarez yalvarez
nicksh nicksh
@andrew Dreamveawer makes bad designer
Andrew Andrew
I like aptanta
nicksh nicksh
and designer doesn’t have to code
nofel nofel
well i been member of SP since 2008 and i gotta say, it is the best community. i never use anything else.
nicksh nicksh
@andrew yea me too
DublinDu… DublinDude
@nicksh only if you rely on design view
Andrew Andrew
CS6 has some cool features in dreamweaver
Anna Anna
Thanks for your comments about what to teach new students
HAWK HAWK
Now that we have a quiet moment, does anyone have a question that hasn’t been answered?
Andrew Andrew
like responsive design
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
and as long as they understand what is supported and what isn’t, in each browser generation too
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@dprophet – Most sites don’t need an awful lot of help to degrade nicely. It’s only when you try to reproduce the exact layout that it becomes awkward. Let lower browsers have a simpler experience.
yalvarez yalvarez
To fast HTML development I suggest user https://github.com/sergeche/zen-coding
rctneil rctneil
What do people do nowadays in reagrds to print stylesheets?
Andrew Andrew
yeah
nicksh nicksh
cool
nofel nofel
lately i came across nth child selector and man it blew me away
Andrew Andrew
you start mobile, then tablet, then desktop
dprophet dprophet
Is use of @import worth the slightyl extra load time for the sake of organisation? Looking for opinions really…
nofel nofel
i haven’t started cs 3 yet.
Andrew Andrew
I overuse nth-child to death
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@rctneil – they’re still a pain in the ***. best to keep them very simple.
Kravvitz Kravvitz
yes, Zen Coding rocks. I use it in PSPad.
rctneil rctneil
@nofel nth of type is awesome. Very very useful for grid like things, Use it all the time
spacebee… spacebeers
@rctneil – Nothing anymore.
nofel nofel
its kind of lengthy with with webkt,transform and other thing for every browser seperate line
designpa… designpalatset
When using border-image, is there a way to not let the image stretch?
jess.irw… jess.irwin
sorry if this is off topic, but has anyone had issues with Chrome not printing characters properly? a page title may only have 1 letter in its title if printed from chrome, but prints perfect from IE. Chrome seems to screw up all typography – missing letters, massive spaces in content etc
molona molona
@rctnell what exactly do you mean by that? I still use them in those pages that have long text and it is likely that they will be end up being printed
rctneil rctneil
@paul.OB Is there a quick way of previewing them and testing them?
Andrew Andrew
@jess.irwin what zoom is your chrome at?
@jess.irwin ignore me
nofel nofel
@paul.OB maybe u remember me from nickname of emaarkhan. u and ryan always helped me with css
Anna Anna
I was looking at html5 forms the new required
rctneil rctneil
I’m only asking as I ran my site throguh sitebeam and got highly penalised for no print stylesheet
nofel nofel
@haWK, can i get notification of chats like this via email.
dprophet dprophet
@jess.irw Especially if it’s font replacement, yes.
nofel nofel
thanks to my ticker. i came across it
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@nofel – yes I remember you :)
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@dprophet yep, uses Typekit
molona molona
@rctnell :-O I would say that using a print stylesheet or not is a question of preferences…
Andrew Andrew
how widely adopted is the :not() selector?
rctneil rctneil
ok, I think i’ll add one just for the sake of completeness :-)
nicksh nicksh
@Andrew I use it only in jQuery :D
spacebee… spacebeers
Is there ever going to be a decent way of doing vertial alignment?
ralph.m ralph.m
@Andrew This is a good site for questions like that: http://caniuse.com/
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@dprophet so no way to avoid it? Printing is important to client.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@rctneil – testing print stylesheets you mean. I just change the media type and see what it looks like in the browser. However there is no substitute for actually printing it out and see what happens.
nofel nofel
ever since i let my job in which i use to code from psd to xhtml and css. i haven’t found a job. i wonder why :(
dprophet dprophet
@jess.irw Not that I’ve found, and I’ve looked hard.
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@anna stuff like required are nice for browser that understand them, but you still need to use some sort of server validation. main problem with ‘required’ et al is that there isn’t a (good) way of styling them yet
nofel nofel
should i call myself web designer or web developer or what
molona molona
@rctnell lol
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@designpalatset = you can lay with the border-image generator here to see what effects you can get. http://border-image.com/
Anna Anna
One more question if I can, last made the big decision to get students to code using text editors and did not let them near dreamweaver or any other web application. Good or bad decision?
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@nofel front end designer? or do you do back end as well?
dprophet dprophet
@nofel hit me up on twitter and I’ll help you, but these questions probably aren’t relevant right now :)
HAWK HAWK
Agreed. Let’s keep it on topic please. :)
adover adover
what @scallioXTX said!
ralph.m ralph.m
@nofel Skills lke that are too easy to find. Broaden your skills.
GriffinA… GriffinArtworks
@Andrew don’t worry about adoption, worry about browser support, just check W3c schools website
nofel nofel
@scallioXTX i been lately involved in convetering PSD to wordpress
themes
HAWK HAWK
Are there other CSS Layout questions?
nofel nofel
i can do a little php
spacebee… spacebeers
I had one about vertial align
adover adover
@nofel practice hard – if you don’t have work, make work for yourself – invent projects out of nothing for practice
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Andrew – Ralph beat me to it - http://caniuse.com/#search=:not
dorak dorak
@anna : good decision. If they are going to learn to code, do it first then maybe try Dreamweaver.
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@nofel yeah that sounds like front end designer. for me web developers do back end as well.
Andrew Andrew

@nofel @adover I class web developer as my job (php / javascript) and web designer as my hobby

nicksh nicksh
@spacebeers vertical align is a pain :D
nofel nofel
@adover hat’s the problem. i wanna have project o work on, but how. no projects
dprophet dprophet
Yup – Let’s say I want a grid of divs 4 x 4 styled as separate boxes. Is it best to use a ‘.last’ class and remove any margins on the right hand side boxes or is there a better way?
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
the main problem with vertical is the designers that don’t understand that it never works the way they think it will
spacebee… spacebeers
@nicksh – it’s a real ballache and there doesn’t seem to be a proper method available
rctneil rctneil
@molona It’s for my personal site, I’m basically working on it to keep me learning Ruby on Rails and making the whole site as best as I can, so if that includes a print stylesheet then i’m all for it
@anna great decision
molona molona
@nofel: you should open a thread in the forum to discuss the possibilities :)
Kravvitz Kravvitz
display:table-cell and display:inline-block work fairly well for vertical alignment, but it’s trickier to support IE7 as well.
ralph.m ralph.m
@spacebeers often display: table display: table-cell is handy for that. But for older browsers that IE8, there are some workaround alternative.
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
it’s usually combined with equal height columns with uneven margins, too many dropshadows and gradients, etc
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – it depends what you mean and what you want to align. Dsiplay:table and table-cell properties (ie8+) can be used for vertical alignment
adover adover
@Andrew I’d class myself as a developer too but a designer aswell , but I mainly develop jQuery, I feel anything which is language based is development, design is creating in photoshop/html/css
nicksh nicksh
@spacebeers Yea, Flex Box is the savior in vertical alignement
mgmoore mgmoore
I don’t know anything about CSS, where is a good place to start?
spacebee… spacebeers
is I meant. Sorry.
nofel nofel
i will. u guys, can u tell me a good and attractive title for myself https://www.odesk.com/users/~~46305826ffbf7eef
spacebee… spacebeers
I mean it won’t be 100% cross browser but neither is table-cell.
dprophet dprophet
@nofel Oh dear god
adover adover
@mgmoore sitepoint forums are a good start, and “viewing source” of sites – that helped me learn a lot
Anna Anna
@nofel at my college we are always getting loads of requests for basically free websites for community projects I am sure if you ask around you could get some projects that way
mgmoore mgmoore
@ralph.m Thanks, I’ll check out SitePoint’s books.
HAWK HAWK
@mgmoore This is a great beginner CSS book http://www.sitepoint.com/books/html3/
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – its early days yet but there are some exciting things out there. To be honest there are only a few things you can;t do now but you have to jump through a lot of hoops to do them.
dprophet dprophet
@HAWK Would like an answer if you could highlight it? :)
nicksh nicksh
What do you think about goddamn vendor-prefixes
Anna Anna
Totally agree sitepoint books are brilliant use them all the time and recommend them to all my students
HAWK HAWK
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – worth keeping an eye on then? Table-cell will have to do for now though.
mgmoore mgmoore
@adover “viewing source” means viewing the source code, right?
Andrew Andrew
@nofel do you use stackoverflow?
molona molona
@mgmoore You have plenty online documentation from the www.w3c.org to the classic www.w3chools.com… although if you prefer books, there are thousands (including SitePoint’s, of course)… there are also plenty of video tuturials in youtube or, if you want something more organised, learnable.com or lynda.com
adover adover
@mgmoore indeed it does :)
nofel nofel
@andrew i just registered a account there today. why
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – at least equal height columns are getting sorted out. That’s my biggest rep earner on Stack Overflow so far
nicksh nicksh
@molona NEVER, EVER, USE W3SCHOOLS
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@spacebeers equal height columns getting sorted?
dprophet dprophet
Let’s say I want a grid of divs 4 x 4 styled as separate boxes. Is it best to use a ‘.last’ class and remove any margins on the right hand side boxes or is there a better way?
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – equal column were never a problem for me lol ;)
adover adover
@nicksh I disagree, all information is usable information
Andrew Andrew @nofel stack overflow has the answers to questions you haven’t even thought of yet!
@nicksh @molona use W3 Schools! Ignore everything it says, do the opposite!
Anna Anna
@nofel look at websites of local community groups charities if they are bad contact them and say you would like to design a erbsite as a showcase for your portfolio
Willomin… Willomina
I agree, @andover
Loufa Loufa
@molona . . . what’s wrong with w3schools?
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – no me neither. Not since the negative margin trick was discovered. It’s how I got half my stack overflow rep
molona molona
@nicksh for a quick look, I don’t find it that bad… the information is well summarized and it is quickly to glanze… it could be updated more frequently though
nofel nofel
pls advice me for a good title
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@Loufa check w3fools.com
nicksh nicksh
ralph.m ralph.m
@dprophet That’s probably the most reliable way, in terms of cross browser.
Andrew Andrew
@loufa W3 Schools is full of bad advice and bad practices… see http://w3f…
*beat to it*
thanks @nicksh
dprophet dprophet
@ralph.m Thanks very much!
HAWK HAWK
@nofel Take that to the forums. It’s not ideal for a chat. :)
Loufa Loufa
thanks . . will check those links
molona molona
@Loufa… I don’t have a problem with w3schools… it is not my main reference but it does provide qucik information
Willomin… Willomina
w3schools is a reference for beginners …
molona molona
the site is not updated that frequently though… and that means that they’re a bit outdated regarding best practices
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@spacebeers what’s the negative margin trick? I usually use a background to fake equal columns
nicksh nicksh
Sitepoint and Mozilla have a good HTML/CSS documentation
nofel nofel
tizag.com is good too
HAWK HAWK
@Willomina Molona didn’t say not to use them – someone @ tagged her :)
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@molona If not frequently means not at all then yes ;)
molona molona
@mgmoore I didn’t say that ;)
Andrew Andrew
@willomina beginners learning bad practice from the start is not good at all
adover adover
@spacebeers I agree, although using jQuery for layout should be a last chance saloon – always test with JS turned off, even if it is for only a small percentage of users – as if you have scripts at the bottom on a big page, it will momentarily look dodgy
Willomin… Willomina
it wasn’t addressed at Molona
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@dprophet – if you want to remove something from the last child then you can use last-child (ie8+ iirc). Or for older browers add a class. Or offset the wrapper to start with by the amount of the margin you want to counter and widen the wrapper with a negative right margin so it contains your four floats. That sounds harder than it should have.
HAWK HAWK
Ok, let’s get back on topic, which is CSS Layouts :)
molona molona
it was nicksh’s who said it :D
Willomin… Willomina
@Andrew I doubt any beginner is only using one source …
nofel nofel
anyhow. i gtg
farrago farrago
agreed
dprophet dprophet
Question – If you have a div containing two other divs – both floated and of different heights, would you include a ‘clear’ div inside or set the containing div’s height to a fixed amount (assuming the design requires it )
Willomin… Willomina
@HAWK thank you
nofel nofel
@hawK hope to see this chat next time.
Andrew Andrew
@Willomina if I say to you ‘this is an egg’ but it was an old chicken, would you believe me?
dprophet dprophet
oops @Paul.OB thank you!
spacebee… spacebeers
@jess.irwin – It’s when you add a massive padding to the bottom and equally massive negative margin.http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9993799/equal-height-fluid-columns-with-min-height/9993887#9993887
GFRA54 GFRA54
good question dprophet
adover adover
@dprophet overflow:hidden on the container instead of a clear?
GFRA54 GFRA54
it is not hte same
spacebee… spacebeers
@jess.irwin – it’s x-browser and saves you using an images
HAWK HAWK
You can sign up for reminders here https://www.facebook.com/sitepoint/app_115462065200508
ralph.m ralph.m
@dprophet Never set a fixed height! That’s asking for trouble. Often something like overflow:hidden on the parent works really well.
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@dprophet I’d set the container to overflow: hidden
Willomin… Willomina
@Andrew I’m not here to debate with you … I’m here for CSS
GFRA54 GFRA54
the height attribute won’t let you add content in one of the two divs in the main div
adover adover
I’m never a fan of adding div’s just to clear
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@dprophet – I would set the parent to overflow;hidden to contain the floats – if that’s what you were asking?
spacebee… spacebeers
@dprophet – +1 for overflow: hidden; Height’s are a problem.
Andrew Andrew
is using a wrapper div really needed these days?
molona molona
@ScallioXTX…posibly… I insist that w3schools is not my web of reference… I used to like it because its organization, it was easy to navigate and fast to get an answer :)
but now I go to other places :D
spacebee… spacebeers
@dprophet – but I’ve not problem with a clear: both div
jess.irw… jess.irwin
I use a clearfix method rather than overflow: hidden
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@molona I hear ya, I used to like it too. Don’t tell anyone.
adover adover
@spacebeers “divitis” ;)
dprophet dprophet
@ralph.m @scallioXTX Would this not affect the layout of other elements within the design? Overflow:hidden just limits what’s displayed but doesn’t act as a block around which the rest of the design can be built, right?
ralph.m ralph.m
@Andrew You usually need it for practical purposes. a lot of problems can arise without it.
GFRA54 GFRA54
but what would be the purpose of the overflow:hidden in that case
Kravvitz Kravvitz
I’m a fan of the widened wrapper with negative margin trick that @paul.OB mentioned.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@spacebeers – You are referring to the one true layout trick which is clever but not suitable if you have in page links as the con tent will get cut off. Its ok otherwise.
nicksh nicksh
btw this is my latest layout
spacebee… spacebeers
@Paul.OB – I never knew it had a name but it’s always worked perfectly for me.
Andrew Andrew
@ralph.m I find that the only time I use wrappers is when I am using javascript to add side widgets based on user preferences
nicksh nicksh
btw where are the experts?
dprophet dprophet
@ScallioXTX Well there you go – I’ve just found out something new! Thanks
I’ll try it out
Andrew Andrew
and then, it’s made with jQuery
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@spacebeers ah, used that once before in my first job, it wasn’t the most successful. will have to try again now I have more experience
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@dprophet in fact any overflow except for the default ‘visible’ will work; so auto also works, but gets you nasty scrollbars if you’re not careful, so better stay clear of that one
HAWK HAWK
@nicksh You’ve been talking to Paul O’Brien for a while now. ;)
spacebee… spacebeers
@paul.OB – I long for the day where CSS columns are fully supported though but it’s a dream for now.
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@Kravvitz sounds like overkill. clearfix, float AND width!?
nicksh nicksh
@hAWK ah, last time the experts had prefixed names :D
thanks
Andrew Andrew
@nicksh obviously @paul.OB doesn’t appear as knowledgeable as you would like XD
adover adover
@ralph.m – interesting point about floating the outside element, @paul.OB – there’s been a bit of noise recently about excessive floating of elements – what are your thoughts on this? I think I first read about it using CSSLint
ralph.m ralph.m
@Andrew Get used to wrappers … HTML5 is full of them (in the form of sections etc. :)
molona molona
@nicksh Paul OB is the official expert… ScallioXTX and Ralph.m know lots too :)
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
everyone is an expert here (:
HAWK HAWK
@dorak Unfortunately the reference sites are a bit out of date but we’re in the process of rewriting them
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@GFRA54 – If you are referring to my answer about containing floats then overflow (other than visible) is one of the properties that create a new “block formatting context” and in that context floats will automatically be contained. (Absolutely posioned elements, inline-block, and display:table-cell properties also have the same effect). Older IE just needs haslayout.
HAWK HAWK
@nicksh Yeah. I forgot to ask Paul to do that this time. I’m also keen to see how the sessions go without an ‘advertised’ expert. Whether people will help each other and come along anyway.
ralph.m ralph.m
@HAWK They are still brilliant, though, and excellent for the CSS and HTML that really matter at the moment. :-)
HAWK HAWK
@nicksh There are also several of my forum staff, who can definitely be considered experts as well
nicksh nicksh
Why doesn’t IE just die :(
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@adover – only float when needed. However floats are marvellous inventions and can do so many things that other elements can’t.
HAWK HAWK
@ralph.m Agreed. The search doesn’t work though and they need a bit of an update. :)
nicksh nicksh
IE dIE ::D
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@nicksh amen
adover adover
@paul.OB – agreed – good to clarify
molona molona
@scallioXTX and @nicksh
LOL
nicksh nicksh
I use IE MUST DIE as an overlay on my website that only shows on IE
jess.irw… jess.irwin
@ralph.m @HAWK I agree they are brilliant… makes my hard copies redundant :(
ralph.m ralph.m
@HAWK Just google “sitepoint reference “topic” and you get what you need, though, so it works fine for me. :-)
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
although IE >= 9 aren’t nearly as bad as 6 and 7
just thinking about IE6 still sends shivers down my spine brrrr
adover adover
@nicksh – see it as a good challenge – fixing things for IE 6 back in the day made me a lot more consistent as a coder nowdays
HAWK HAWK
We have 10 mins of the official session left. Does anyone have a question that they haven’t had an answer to?
molona molona
@ralph.m I use the codeBurnet tool for FF
dprophet dprophet
I just tried overflow:hidden to contain floated divs. Genius. I consider this well worth the time :D
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@dprophet good to hear :)
molona molona
it is a great way to have the reference in your browswer :)
adover adover
@HawK when’s the next one? :) Enjoyed it!
nicksh nicksh
@scallioXTX It still has shit performance and it still comes with MSN homepage
Andrew Andrew

here is a good* question

Sometimes I use position:relative; on a parent element, then position: absolute, left: 0; width: 20% /// position: absolute, right: 0; width: 80%; for two columns in my layout. obviously this is a REALLY simple example, sometimes there are 3/4 columns, Is there a better way to do this?

* disclamer: the word good is used relative to my prior contributions

HAWK HAWK
@adover TBC but if you want to get on an email reminder list, put your name down here https://www.facebook.com/sitepoint/app_115462065200508
dprophet dprophet
@scallioXTX Okay great, thanks.
Kravvitz Kravvitz
@scallioXTX Not at the same time. Sorry for not being clear. I meant that I would use one of the 3 methods I mentioned.
spacebee… spacebeers
@Andrew – What do you do about equal column height for dynamic content?
HAWK HAWK
On an unrelated subject and for those of you that missed it earlier, we’re doing a giveaway on Twitter for all new followers. Make sure you follow @sitepointdotcom to get your free Photoshop Shortcuts Poster.
adover adover
done, thanks @haWK – enjoyed it!
Andrew Andrew
overflow / custom scrollbars
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
something with a margin in a overflow:hidden container where you have some other content as well that isn’t floating, something like that; it would cut the block of at the width of the float
ralph.m ralph.m
@Andrew Generally, absolute positioning for page layouts causes a lot of trouble … such as when you have a footer (or anything else) after the columns. Better to use floats for columns.
HAWK HAWK
@adover My pleasure. Thanks for taking part.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Andrew – Absolute columns are fine as long as you don’t need a footer under both columns. I tend to stick with floats because I know the client will change his mind and want a footer :)
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@ralph.m I agree. I use absolute positioning only when there is no other way. Just too many balls to keep in the air.
nicksh nicksh
Any solution on fluid height sticky footer?
Loufa Loufa
Must leave now. Thanks for all the CSS info & a good intro to chat . . . more study required . . . back next time!
dprophet dprophet
Punching out. Thanks all. Well worth it for that overflow:hidden alone!
ralph.m ralph.m
Absolute positioning is handy for small items here and there, but lousy for page layout generally.
HAWK HAWK
Later @dprophet – thanks for taking part
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
what’s a “fluid height sticky footer”?
nicksh nicksh
the sticky footer without fixed height
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@ralph.m exactly
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@nickish – Not yet – but I’ll get working on it !
Andrew Andrew
isn’t that where the footer stays at the bottom regardless of page height?
nicksh nicksh
yea
Andrew Andrew
sticking to the bottom of the window when the page is smaller than the window usually
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@andrew – yes the problem with the sticky footer is that you need to have a fixed height footer in order to cater for the 100%. If the footer is afluid height it won;t work
Andrew Andrew
how much do good CSS designers charge per hour?
spacebee… spacebeers
Right time for bed for me. It’s been interesting as always. See you next time.
HAWK HAWK
See ya @spacebeers
nicksh nicksh
@spacebeers drink more space beers :D
spacebee… spacebeers
Is the transcipt going up tomorrow?
AJ AJ
How do I get transitions to work “below the fold” CSS3/HTML5
HAWK HAWK
I’ll post it up later today (it’s currently 10am here)
spacebee… spacebeers
cool thanks @hAWK.
Andrew Andrew
see, I charge the wage I get from work +50%, since I’d have to possibly take time off work and to do that it needs to be worth my while
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Andrew – They would charge as much as they can get away with I would suspect. As Ralph said it all depends on the client, job in hand and current cost of living.
Andrew Andrew
otherwise, I might as well just go to work!
nicksh nicksh
It depends on client :D how much can they pay
IS $15 too low?
jess.irw… jess.irwin
Well I’m off to work (8am). Cya’s next time
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@AJ – Do you have an example as I’m not quite sure what you mean. If you animate something out of the viewport it will keep on going I believe.
Willomin… Willomina
an hour?
molona molona
@nicksh and also what’s the minimum that you’re willing to accept :D
HAWK HAWK
Thanks for taking part :)
Andrew Andrew
$15 an hour is a bit low IMO
HAWK HAWK
And a special thanks to Paul O’B and the forum experts for their time
Andrew Andrew
in the UK that’s like £10/hour
Andrew Andrew
@nicksh – I’m probably not as good as you and i charge near double that, so you might be selling short
Kravvitz Kravvitz
you should also consider your skill level when setting your rate. I’d say $15/hour is fine for someone who has less than 2 years of experience.
nicksh nicksh
I’m 15 :D
but I know things really good,
Andrew Andrew
I know someone who set up a website at 15 which gets 10 million views a week
Andrew Andrew
age means nothing, skill means everything
Kravvitz Kravvitz
The only cross-browser way to do sticky footers with a non-fixed height footer that I’m aware of is to use a CSS-table.
Andrew Andrew
can the next session be about API building?
*PHP API building*
nicksh nicksh
PHP is too specific
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@Andrew and API is too broad
Andrew Andrew
just the theory behind building a scalable API
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
sounds like you may want to read the PHP Master’s book from SitePoint
nicksh nicksh
I don’t like PHP, but I know it reaaaaalllyyy good
:D
Andrew Andrew
I have the book!
I read it
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
they describe how to write a RESTful API in there, it’s pretty good
ah, okay
Andrew Andrew
I learnt SO much from ti
it
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
yeah it’s good
Andrew Andrew
It pretty much got me a job!
nicksh nicksh
I use Codeigniter, can I use it for REST?
Andrew Andrew
it’s like the glue that holds the pieces together
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
so, no more css questions then?
Andrew Andrew
I hate codeigniter
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
@nicksh sure, why not
Andrew Andrew
I used it for 3 years, loved it, then discovered CakePHP and Lithium
nicksh nicksh
I’m moving ro Ruby
Andrew Andrew
don’t
ScallioX… ScallioXTX
li3 FTW
Andrew Andrew
Now I use a custom framework which uses custom API’s instead of models
nicksh nicksh
hmm
yea I mean Ruby on Rails
and maybe Sinatra
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Kravvitz – Yes I had a version working in Firefox with Display:table but IE8 wouldn’t play ball.
Andrew Andrew
Twitter moved from Ruby to PHP because they encountered scalability issues
Kravvitz Kravvitz
@Paul.OB hmm. IE8. That’s a pain but not too surprising.
nicksh nicksh
with all it’s retarded products
Windows renders webfonts like shit
Kravvitz Kravvitz
they’re working to improve IE, but they’re still playing catch up.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Kravvitz – yes I think it didn’t like one cell being 100% and pushed the table higher whereas other browsers did not expand the table height. Now you’ve mentioned it I may have to revisit as it was a while ago :)
Kravvitz Kravvitz
Have you guys seen this? http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2012/06/04/legacy-dx-filters-removed-from-ie10-release-preview.aspx They say that they’ll remove the filters including the alpha/opacity filter from ALL rendering modes of IE10.
nicksh nicksh
Not only IE, even Chrome renders fonts like crap on Windows
Kravvitz Kravvitz
yeah, the way Chrome renders fonts in Windows is a frequent source of frustration for me.
nicksh nicksh
When I look at my websites on Ubuntu I’m surprised :D
Paul.OB Paul.OB
@Kravvitz – Yes I read that and it seems they are trying to clean their act up. Its unusual for MS not to support something but they dropped expressions in IE8 so I guess this is another step.
@Kravvitz – dropping filters should cure all the bugs with rounded cornres , shadows and gradients as the filter seems to kill a lot of them.
I have to sleep now so bye all and thanks for the questions, answers and chat. It’s been fun.
Paul.OB Paul.OB
You’re welcome although the chat moved faster than I can type :) See you later Ralph and thanks as always.
Kravvitz Kravvitz
and yes, the filters don’t play well with things like PNGs that have alpha transparent areas.
nicksh nicksh
btw I’ve remembered a handy tool
worth bookmarking, I think
Kravvitz Kravvitz
Rod Rod
Anyone still use Gifs?
nicksh nicksh
Gifs never die
Kravvitz Kravvitz
optimized PNGs are usually smaller than GIFs.
ralph.m ralph.m
Animated gifs are making a comeback, too.
nicksh nicksh
but only as user content
not design elements as in stone age
:D
Kravvitz Kravvitz
the only GIF I typically use is a 10×10 fully transparent one.
nicksh nicksh
hmm
These days I just ignore old shitty IE
Rod Rod
When can we stop using the -webkit -moz prefixes?
nicksh nicksh
When CSS4 and HTML6 come in play
Rod Rod
Next century then?
nicksh nicksh
Or I hope until then
ralph.m ralph.m
@Rod You don’t *have* to use them ever. :-)
nicksh nicksh
maybe an asteroid strikes us this year
Rod Rod
Is there a best way of layout out a css file or is it just down to preference? Also – is it best to consolodate css into the fewest possible files or segregate them?
nicksh nicksh
so what do you think how much should I charge if I’m 16 year old but know HTML stack really good
@rod it depends
hmm
wait
you can put all shared code in one file, and create page specific files
ralph.m ralph.m
@Rod Basically preference. And I prefer fewer style sheets.
nicksh nicksh
you may use a preprocessor to keep code organized
I usually have a site-wide stylesheet and one page-specific one when neccessary
yea
ralph.m ralph.m
Flash is certainly getting the squeeze.
nicksh nicksh
HTML5 has all the possibilities of Flash
if we include WebGL
gilton gilton
that’s a fact I presume…
nicksh nicksh
the Flash software may still stay as interactive HTML5 stuff authoring tool
but the Flash Player will be past
gilton gilton
the way things are going, maybe you’re right.
Rod Rod
Flash is dead, and if Adobe don’t improve Photoshop and Illustrator instead of just adding on extra features then their days are numbered too.
gilton gilton
however not everything is lost. It can act like you said.
nicksh nicksh
can you answer? min. how much should I charge if I’m 16 year old but know HTML CSS JS really good
:/
ralph.m ralph.m
OK folks, I need to bid ye adieu …
Rod Rod
Charge whatever is worth your time doing it basically.
gilton gilton
value your work!!
Rod Rod
Estimate how long it will take you, then double it because estimations usually fall way short. Work out what hourly rate you’re happy with to get your total. Get them to pay some of that as a deposit. Then get further amount paid on completion of design phase, and the rest on completion.
Lay all this out in the inital quote that you give the client

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  • Samuel

    Please I need a free customizable Content Management System (php_msql) template. Not Joomla/drupal or any other similar CMS, but a Dreamweaver designed cms using php and mysql. Thanks

    • http://thehawk.wordpress.com HAWK

      Hi Samuel,
      That question would be better suited to our forums, which you’ll find here http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/

      Good luck.