SitePoint.com

ArticleBot · Jun 20, 2004, 08:38

This is a dedicated thread for discussing the SitePoint article 'Using Accesskeys is Easy'

Tygger2512 · Jun 20, 2004, 08:38

Are there standards for sub navigation? Many sites, mine included, have global navigation, and then more specific navigation inside each section.

jamie_g · Jun 20, 2004, 10:43

Hum, I think the recommended use for accesskeys is on any main (primary) navigation, or primary content areas.

-jamie

redux · Jun 20, 2004, 13:20

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/accesskey.html

WebCudgel · Jun 24, 2004, 10:18

One of the issues we had with accesskeys was in internationalization. We had intended for each item using the accesskey to reference a letter of the item (in this case, we had buttons with underlined letters indicating the accesskeys much like some Windows applications). However, when translated, you couldn't guarantee that the letter even applied to the new word. Thus, we were forced to push accesskeys aside.

However, in this use where the key actually has nothing to do with the name of the selection, it is quite feasible for this to cross (most) language barriers and still be acceptable.

Jun 30, 2004, 07:46

What if a letter selected to be an accesskey is already used in combination with Alt to open a menu? This only applies to Windows, of course, but what immediately comes to mind is that the "best practice standard" for going home is Alt+H. Press that right now and what do you get? The Help menu of your browser.

Webnauts · Jul 6, 2004, 17:50

I design websites and implementing the accesskeys, using numbers instead of letters, to avoid conflicts as described here:
Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38

But now I discovered that using numbers for accesskeys is not the solution:
More reasons why we don't use accesskeys (accesskeyconflicts) http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37

And after all, I am now confronted with the solution below:
Link Relationships as an Alternative to Accesskeys http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyalternatives/52

What do you think?

dbsmith · Sep 6, 2004, 07:57

Hi,

I've been trying to figure out what a suitable set of access keys would be for some time now. I was going to post my findings here for you guys to comment on (I'm not 100% convinced that I'm on the right track), but when I realised I was going to write so much I put it on its own page - it was easier to write the examples that way too. I would very much appreciate your comments.

Implementing Access Keys

Cheers.

Jan 12, 2006, 10:56

accesskeys are in general a terrible idea. the people they are designed to help (disabled) have already found suitable workarounds so the implementation of accesskeys only serves to annoy them and everyone else by reassigning familiar keystrokes to wacky and inconsistent links. why!? PLEASE DON'T!

Feb 16, 2006, 11:48

Don't ever use accesskeys! They are an example of a broken standard and a defective design, as they conflict with keypresses in software that may be in use by different users' software.

Just ... "no".

Cecil Ward.

artemis · Feb 27, 2006, 11:19

I was surprised to hear that there where issues with Access Keys. This is obvious the software vendors fault for setting a standard that conflicts with other short cuts. i am sure they could find another keystroke combination that isn't in use such as alt gr or something.

AutisticCuckoo · Feb 27, 2006, 23:22

AFAIK, the only browser who made an effort here is Opera. Unfortunately, they chose a key combination that's a bit awkward: Shift+Esc. Still, it's better than Alt, because it doesn't cause conflicts.

devolved · Feb 28, 2006, 04:32

what are these conflicts specifically?

people keep saying it causes kb conflicts, but ive used the numbers and letters way n not seen this once so far..

the post buttons below have alt+blah attatched to them

AutisticCuckoo · Feb 28, 2006, 04:47

If you use 'F' as the accesskey for a link or a form element, it may cause conflicts for people using certain browsers. If the browser uses Alt+accesskey to activate, this will conflict with any browser accelerator that uses Alt+F. In the English versions of Internet Explorer, this is likely to be used for the File menu.

If you use numbers for accesskeys, you can make it difficult or impossible for Windows users to enter characters that aren't directly available via the keyboard. In Windows, you can hold Alt while typing three or four digits to insert the character with a specific codepoint. But if Alt+digit is used for an accesskey, this can fail.

Assistive technologies can use keyboard accelerators of their own. JAWS, for instance, has scores of them. This will lead to conflicts with accesskeys sooner or later, if the same activating key is used.

Finally, even if you manage to find an accesskey that isn't used for anything in your browser, you can count on the fact that it will clash for someone else. Different browsers may use different accelerators of their own, and even with the same browser, different accelerators are used in different language versions.

There is nothing wrong with the concept of accesskeys as such. The problem is the implementation in many browsers, where they use the same activating key as is used for keyboard accelerators in the operating system or application.

artemis · Feb 28, 2006, 05:03

Does anybody know what Alt Gr does? its the dud one sat to the right of my space bar. It seemslike a good candidate to me

devolved · Feb 28, 2006, 05:33

Im not trying to win a point .. but I cant find anything on why we shudnt use alt+1 etc

Im new to accessibilty so I don't know as such, but cant think of any reason or find anything on google.

Webnauts line to why not to use alt+numeric didn't work

AutisticCuckoo · Feb 28, 2006, 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis

Does anybody know what Alt Gr does? its the dud one sat to the right of my space bar. It seemslike a good candidate to me

It's used on some non-American keyboards for accessing certain characters. For instance, my Swedish keyboard needs room for three more letters than an American one: Å, Ä and Ö. Those are placed on the right-hand side of the keyboard, replacing certain characters that the American keyboard has there. So if I want to type a left curly brace, I need to press AltGr+7.

AltGr is not a good candidate for an accesskey activator, because it's not available on all keyboards. It's mostly a DOS/Windows thing, I believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by devolved

I cant find anything on why we shudnt use alt+1 etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo

If you use numbers for accesskeys, you can make it difficult or impossible for Windows users to enter characters that aren't directly available via the keyboard. In Windows, you can hold Alt while typing three or four digits to insert the character with a specific codepoint. But if Alt+digit is used for an accesskey, this can fail.

devolved · Feb 28, 2006, 06:08

yeah but not if u just use single digital numeric values ... if u have more than 9 major sections to your site then yeah maybe problems

but you arent going to have 100 sections, if u do u need a new nav ...

besides, its for catering for the physically disabled .... not mentally

AutisticCuckoo · Feb 28, 2006, 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by devolved

yeah but not if u just use single digital numeric values ... if u have more than 9 major sections to your site then yeah maybe problems

Doesn't matter. If I need to enter the Danish/Norwegian character 'ø', which isn't available from my Swedish keyboard, I'll use Alt+0248. If you've used '0', '2', '4' or '8' as an accesskey, there's a risk that I'll be whisked away to another page instead of typing an 'ø'.

Buddy Bradley · Mar 1, 2006, 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by devolved

besides, its for catering for the physically disabled .... not mentally

I think you just disqualified yourself from this conversation - go get a clue about accessibility and come back when you know better than to make statements like that...

devolved · Mar 1, 2006, 08:30

long as your not over sensitive hey bradley, let b pc cuz it's expected....my cousins pyhsically disabled and a kid in baby sit is mentally disabled, why take it stuff so seriously ... they dont.

cuckoo: i see your point, but the number of times your likely to need complex input on site isn't that often, i accept there IS a risk but I think access keys are [if only potentially] a great idea.

the potential good outweigh the potential evils and really theres no way to cater for everyone, you just have to find a happy medium for your main audience

Tailslide · Mar 1, 2006, 09:04

You could always try User Defined Access Keys: http://juicystudio.com/article/user-...accesskeys.php

Sextant · Mar 1, 2006, 09:55

The User Defined Accesskeys article is highly erudite but nonetheless an academic exercise because I doubt that many people would bother to set them up. How many "non-techie" site visitors bother (or even know) about setting up user preferences in their chosen browser?

In practice accesskeys are at best an annoyance and at worst they can divert certain UAs (like screen-readers) into outer space

However, if a site developer/designer is going to use Alt+numeric, please advise visitors who use screen-readers they must use the numbers on the QWERTY keyboard, not the numeric keypad. This is usually taken over by screen-reading software for its own purposes - and you don't want oodles of comments/complaints about your beooootifully crafted access key combinations do you?

Buddy Bradley · Mar 1, 2006, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by devolved

long as your not over sensitive hey bradley, let b pc cuz it's expected....my cousins pyhsically disabled and a kid in baby sit is mentally disabled, why take it stuff so seriously ... they dont.

That's okay then, as long as you know one disabled person you're definitely qualified to make sweeping statements about disability...

Tailslide · Mar 1, 2006, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sextant

I doubt that many people would bother to set them up. How many "non-techie" site visitors bother (or even know) about setting up user preferences in their chosen browser?

I have to say that I agree with you. Without wishing to denegrate those that came up with the idea (which is far far beyond my ability) - it does smack of being clever for the sake of it rather than actually being helpful to the majority of users.

So the question becomes would you include user defined access keys as a measure to help the few that would use it and thus in theory at least make sites more accessible or do you leave it off for the moment because access keys are generally the cause of more problems than the solution?

Jun 20, 2004, 08:38	#1
ArticleBot SitePoint Articles Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 0	Discussion thread for Using Accesskeys is Easy This is a dedicated thread for discussing the SitePoint article 'Using Accesskeys is Easy'

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Jun 20, 2004, 08:38	#2
Tygger2512 SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Pittsburg, KS Posts: 192	Are there standards for sub navigation? Many sites, mine included, have global navigation, and then more specific navigation inside each section.

Jun 20, 2004, 10:43	#3
jamie_g SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 182	Hum, I think the recommended use for accesskeys is on any main (primary) navigation, or primary content areas. -jamie

Jun 20, 2004, 13:20	#4
redux gingham dress, army boots... Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Salford / Manchester / UK Posts: 4,856	http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/accesskey.html

Jun 24, 2004, 10:18	#5
WebCudgel SitePoint Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: N. Richland Hills, TX Posts: 2	One of the issues we had with accesskeys was in internationalization. We had intended for each item using the accesskey to reference a letter of the item (in this case, we had buttons with underlined letters indicating the accesskeys much like some Windows applications). However, when translated, you couldn't guarantee that the letter even applied to the new word. Thus, we were forced to push accesskeys aside. However, in this use where the key actually has nothing to do with the name of the selection, it is quite feasible for this to cross (most) language barriers and still be acceptable.

Jun 30, 2004, 07:46	#6
Scottish SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	What if a letter selected to be an accesskey is already used in combination with Alt to open a menu? This only applies to Windows, of course, but what immediately comes to mind is that the "best practice standard" for going home is Alt+H. Press that right now and what do you get? The Help menu of your browser.

Jul 6, 2004, 17:50	#7
Webnauts Organic SEO Expert Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: European Union Posts: 1,577	I design websites and implementing the accesskeys, using numbers instead of letters, to avoid conflicts as described here: Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38 But now I discovered that using numbers for accesskeys is not the solution: More reasons why we don't use accesskeys (accesskeyconflicts) http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37 And after all, I am now confronted with the solution below: Link Relationships as an Alternative to Accesskeys http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyalternatives/52 What do you think?

Sep 6, 2004, 07:57	#8
dbsmith SitePoint Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Southampton, UK Posts: 2	Hi, I've been trying to figure out what a suitable set of access keys would be for some time now. I was going to post my findings here for you guys to comment on (I'm not 100% convinced that I'm on the right track), but when I realised I was going to write so much I put it on its own page - it was easier to write the examples that way too. I would very much appreciate your comments. Implementing Access Keys Cheers.

Jan 12, 2006, 10:56	#9
nick SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	accesskeys are in general a terrible idea. the people they are designed to help (disabled) have already found suitable workarounds so the implementation of accesskeys only serves to annoy them and everyone else by reassigning familiar keystrokes to wacky and inconsistent links. why!? PLEASE DON'T!

Feb 16, 2006, 11:48	#10
Cecil Ward SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	Don't ever use accesskeys! They are an example of a broken standard and a defective design, as they conflict with keypresses in software that may be in use by different users' software. Just ... "no". Cecil Ward.

Feb 27, 2006, 11:19	#11
artemis SitePoint Addict Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London Posts: 292	I was surprised to hear that there where issues with Access Keys. This is obvious the software vendors fault for setting a standard that conflicts with other short cuts. i am sure they could find another keystroke combination that isn't in use such as alt gr or something.

Feb 27, 2006, 23:22	#12
AutisticCuckoo SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Åsnorrbodarna Posts: 11,581	AFAIK, the only browser who made an effort here is Opera. Unfortunately, they chose a key combination that's a bit awkward: Shift+Esc. Still, it's better than Alt, because it doesn't cause conflicts.

Feb 28, 2006, 04:32	#13
devolved SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 33	what are these conflicts specifically? people keep saying it causes kb conflicts, but ive used the numbers and letters way n not seen this once so far.. the post buttons below have alt+blah attatched to them

Feb 28, 2006, 04:47	#14
AutisticCuckoo SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Åsnorrbodarna Posts: 11,581	If you use 'F' as the accesskey for a link or a form element, it may cause conflicts for people using certain browsers. If the browser uses Alt+accesskey to activate, this will conflict with any browser accelerator that uses Alt+F. In the English versions of Internet Explorer, this is likely to be used for the File menu. If you use numbers for accesskeys, you can make it difficult or impossible for Windows users to enter characters that aren't directly available via the keyboard. In Windows, you can hold Alt while typing three or four digits to insert the character with a specific codepoint. But if Alt+digit is used for an accesskey, this can fail. Assistive technologies can use keyboard accelerators of their own. JAWS, for instance, has scores of them. This will lead to conflicts with accesskeys sooner or later, if the same activating key is used. Finally, even if you manage to find an accesskey that isn't used for anything in your browser, you can count on the fact that it will clash for someone else. Different browsers may use different accelerators of their own, and even with the same browser, different accelerators are used in different language versions. There is nothing wrong with the concept of accesskeys as such. The problem is the implementation in many browsers, where they use the same activating key as is used for keyboard accelerators in the operating system or application.

Feb 28, 2006, 05:03	#15
artemis SitePoint Addict Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: London Posts: 292	Does anybody know what Alt Gr does? its the dud one sat to the right of my space bar. It seemslike a good candidate to me

Feb 28, 2006, 05:33	#16
devolved SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 33	Im not trying to win a point .. but I cant find anything on why we shudnt use alt+1 etc Im new to accessibilty so I don't know as such, but cant think of any reason or find anything on google. Webnauts line to why not to use alt+numeric didn't work

Feb 28, 2006, 06:08	#18
devolved SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 33	yeah but not if u just use single digital numeric values ... if u have more than 9 major sections to your site then yeah maybe problems but you arent going to have 100 sections, if u do u need a new nav ... besides, its for catering for the physically disabled .... not mentally

Mar 1, 2006, 08:30	#21
devolved SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Leicester, UK Posts: 33	long as your not over sensitive hey bradley, let b pc cuz it's expected....my cousins pyhsically disabled and a kid in baby sit is mentally disabled, why take it stuff so seriously ... they dont. cuckoo: i see your point, but the number of times your likely to need complex input on site isn't that often, i accept there IS a risk but I think access keys are [if only potentially] a great idea. the potential good outweigh the potential evils and really theres no way to cater for everyone, you just have to find a happy medium for your main audience

Mar 1, 2006, 09:04	#22
Tailslide SitePoint Mentor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bedford, UK Posts: 1,632	You could always try User Defined Access Keys: http://juicystudio.com/article/user-...accesskeys.php

Mar 1, 2006, 09:55	#23
Sextant SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 40	The User Defined Accesskeys article is highly erudite but nonetheless an academic exercise because I doubt that many people would bother to set them up. How many "non-techie" site visitors bother (or even know) about setting up user preferences in their chosen browser? In practice accesskeys are at best an annoyance and at worst they can divert certain UAs (like screen-readers) into outer space However, if a site developer/designer is going to use Alt+numeric, please advise visitors who use screen-readers they must use the numbers on the QWERTY keyboard, not the numeric keypad. This is usually taken over by screen-reading software for its own purposes - and you don't want oodles of comments/complaints about your beooootifully crafted access key combinations do you?