Hear Hear! Well said!
This thread is a good example of why people are going overseas to hire webdesigners and the such.
Unless you’re in the top 5-10% of web designers out there, price is going to be one of the factors in deciding whether to hire you or not.
That’s just a fact of life.
As far as the cadillac analogy goes, the dealer has fixed prices which he has to recover from the sale of a car. A website designer can sell his time for whatever he likes and make a profit (not necessarily enough to live on but technically a profit none the less) so the two aren’t at all the same.
Anyway, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind either way, it comes down to two factors really.
A) You need the work
B) You don’t need the work
If you need the work you are more likely to accept haggling, if you don’t then you won’t haggle. Simple supply and demand really just on a personal scale.
I think its down to you really, if you feel comfortable enough with the situation to go ahead, and it really doesnt bother you then fine go ahead with the deal. Hoever if you are a bit un-easy with the whole thing and are not completely comfortable i think its fair enough to stand your ground and stay true. Good luck with that 
If I am in the top 5-10 % of all web designers, I am not even trying to compete with overseas designers. So that would be an irrelevant argument.
People who go to overseas designers are going to do it anyway, and good luck to them. Does that mean I should charge $50 for a website? I don’t think so!
As for the Cadillac, fixed costs or not, the salesmans IS NOT going to sell it to you if he can’t make a profit. In a sense, I know where my bottom line is for each project. So that can be looked at in the same way as fixed costs.
Every person I’ve given a discounted, I’ve regretted.
What happens is they usually start getting picky, then you end up getting frustrated because you aren’t getting the money you deserve.
Even if it means losing a client, I will no longer cut breaks. The only exception to this rule is if there is in exchange. Most people that think the price is out of their budget are willing to give up features knowing they can add them on later when they get put more money into it.
You’re right, I can’t agree. Let’s see…
'People' aren't going overseas to hire web designers, almost always it's [i]other designers or marketing firms[/i] that do that. It may be profitable for the former, it's usually painful for the latter. Web designers who hire out can usually communicate around language difficulties or fix problems personally, because they know how. Agencies need a middleman to either act as a manager or to screen the overseas designers for competence and quality.
The top 5 or 10%? Why would price not be a factor for those guys too? There are no web design superstars (names that you just have to have) that I know of. Price is always a factor. It just isn’t always the primary factor. Other things count and will make a higher price much more palatable, or even expected. Things like ease of maintenance, SEO readiness, local availability, native language skills, proven ROI, or a track record of successful site management.
Sure, if all you’re selling is pretty graphics and workable HTML, you’ve got lots of competition over what is mostly a matter of taste, past a certain point. Better get a day job and call yourself a ‘web designer’ in your off hours. Photoshop will make you a designer like Word will make you a writer.
The car dealer analogy also isn’t bad within limits. You just have to realize you are selling something less tangible than a car. But the ‘sell your time for whatever and still make a profit’ line, you really need to rethink that. Anyone in business has fixed costs, from the value of their computer and software, to the electricity to run it, to the office phone, or the high-speed connection. Your statement is only true if you place no value on your time or expertise (or the time you spent learning your skill), and if you attach no value to these things, why should anyone else, including your customers?
Will you charge less if you are desperate? Sure! The fact that you’re in web design doesn’t make you superhuman. Other businesses can also only charge what the market will bear, or do what they need to do to survive. Web design is no exception.
But perhaps you are implying that the lowest price I ever charged anyone is the only ‘fair’ price and anything above that must be a ripoff because I’ve already established that there are circumstances where I’ll go lower. That’s a fantasy. I’ll charge to cover my fixed costs, plus a decent wage for a skilled professional of my caliber, plus a good amount for the risk I take for being in business (that’s called ‘profit’). If I don’t charge for these things, I’ll soon be out of business or making so little that I may as well find another line.
Or are you saying that there are a lot of hungry web guys in the world, so it’s easy to beat them down on price? That may be true, but in that case, who’s taking advantage of whom?
Up your price 10% then give him a discount of 10%. 
I’m sure we agree on a lot more than we don’t. Good luck with that butcher. 
Herein lies two problems that would raise a red flag for me, if you were a prospect:
[list=1][*]You don’t perceive web design to be a real business. How can I not make “enough to live on”, yet still “make a profit”? What you pay me is not profit, when you first consider what I could otherwise be making working the same job as an employee, then deduct my equipment costs, fixed costs (yes, I have them), marketing costs, insurance, self-employment taxes, etc.
[*]You think you are paying me “for my time.” If I wanted that, I’d get a 9-5 job. I want to be paid for the results I produce and the value I provide, just like any real business. If I pay my gardner $60 a month, why should I care if it takes him 20 minutes or 2 hours, so long as I get what I want? That is, a well-kept lawn that I didn’t have to mow or weed myself.[/list]
What you’re describing is someone who’s one step above an employee, so of course you’d haggle. Why pay an employee $10/hr if he’ll work for $8? But do you haggle over price with other service professionals that you’d consider more “legitimate” businesses, such as your CPA, attorney or plumber? If not, why not? Can’t they also “can sell their time for whatever they like and make a profit,” just like me? How would they react if you told them that when you asked for a discount?
Which is exactly why I’m not a “web designer.” I’m a business person who helps clients use the web to solve their business and marketing problems. So, while I may not be King of the Hill, I can still be king of my own particular little hill.
Price is certainly one of the buying factors, but studies have shown that it actually ranks about seventh on the list of customer importance. The more your product/service is perceived as a commodity, the higher price will rank on your buyer’s list. As we’ve discussed ad infinitum on other threads, competing on price is generally a losing proposition, and many of us choose to avoid people whose primary buying criteria is price.
Haggling on price is a good indication that the other person views your services as a commodity. But here’s the other problem it presents: the more time you’ve invested into meetings and proposals, the more likely you are to cave in to the request. If you can’t agree on price, or at least an acceptable range, within the first hour or so of conversation (and before you present a proposal), then you’ve placed yourself in a very precarious position, IMO.
that doesn’t sound like a discount, that sounds like bartering. Barter back. (to the original poster)
I would not do it. Currently my full time job, I work in the cellular industry. Everyday I hear “well I’ve been a customer for x amount of months, I should get a discount.” I just want to say to these people, LOOK YOU SORRY ***, I’ve been a customer of walmart for going on 10 years or so and they’ve never once given me anything for free!!! But some industries people think they are “valued” and need stuff for free. Honestly, this guy you’re dealing with, if you say no, there is still a 90 percent chance he’ll still go with your services, he’s just testing the waters to see if he can get you down to as cheap as possible.
Just decide if you really want/need the work. Remember that what you do is a lot of work. If it’s something you still feel you are being well compensated for, then go ahead and give him the discount. Personally, I have never regretted turning down work, but have really regretted taking on some clients projects.
Besides, it sounds like you have already decided that you want to work with this person.
What I usually do with clients is offer them discounts based how quickly they pay. IE: If they pay net 7, give them a 5-10% discount. (I personally would rather have slightly less cash on hand quickly then a bit more in 15, 30 or 60 days.)
Bad maths there, mate. That’s still a discount (the latter 10% is bigger than the former 10%).
Don’t we all!
Either take away some features or maintenance work, never just give the client a discount. Even when I was on my own, freelancing only (now I work 9-5 at an organisation as a web developer) I never did that, but only 1 out of 10 clients would go with someone else, and usually that’s the kind I wouldn’t want to talk to in the first place anyway. Being firm with your price means you are confidence with the value you provide and the quality of your work. Clients are attracted to confident developers. Remember that the value your client can make from the website (in a year) will probably be like a few hundred times more than what they pay you to make it anyway, so don’t go back on your price and don’t charge too little in the first place either! Talking about that, you should try to find out yourself, or guess, how much your client would save/make with the website. It’ll give you a lot more confidence about your pricing.
I agree. It’s mostly web/software companies that would outsource. Normal clients won’t, as firstly they don’t know enough to communicate their needs to oversea developers and secondly they prefer talking to someone in person about what they want. Web/software development isn’t a simple product that you just pay for its value and shipping fee and you have it working at your place a few days later.
OH MAN CARVE THAT INTO STONE!
I can even relate this to non web related issues. I has a auto garage in the 90’s (one of my former professions) EVERY freaking time I “did someone a favor” or “cut some one a break” I got screwed! I used to be (keyword used to be) a sucker for every sob stroy that came down the road. You know the single mom with 2 kids that needed the car fixed to get to work, yeah it broke my heart and I helped them out or let them make payments and EVERY damn time I ended up not getting paid! It’s a sad statement of human beings but the “cut me a break” mentality is usually followed by the “I don’t get paid” or the “do 10x more work for nothing” attitudes so no I don’t negotiate. I’ll remove functionality or show them cheaper options (which they usually hate) but I will NOT cut my rates!
Folks not to get on the soapbox here but this attitude (the one I’ve seen here about “they will outsource”) is EXACTLY why the web proffesion is becoming a joke. The more of this nonsense is accepted the more they do it and you end up with a “flea market” atmosphere. We and ONLY we can stop it! You don’t see this kind of thing with any other profession so do you want to be a professional or a joke!
And finally, I have YET to see the quality delivered for one of these cut rate shops that I see from top notch developers … in my mind it’s “you get what you pay for”. You want garbage spagetti code, browser issues, page loads from hell? Then go for the “cheap rate” … but dont cry to anyone later when you realize you bought a “sick horse”
BTW, Yo Hacketstown! I’m just across the river from you!
Most of the people buy items from stores which are listed on discount ? Its a fact and it works from small to big malls or companies.
Dont loose customers…Catch them and keep them.
I guess it depends if they are looking for “seconds” or only want top-notch. When was the last time you got PhotoShop or XP Professional at a discount?
Yes, big stores do haul in discounted merchandise which they sell as loss-leaders. However, they still make a profit and they know in advance what they will get for selling what they offer. If they don’t, they won’t stay in business very long.
Web providers – designers, developers, programmers, hosts, copywriters, etc. aren’t selling a product. They are selling their skill and expertise. It is unreasonable to think they will offer a discount just because they are asked for one.
The other day, one of my clients asked for a discount and my response was, “You know I love working with you, but giving you a discount wouldn’t really be fair to other clients who are paying for the same service.”
I didn’t lose the client, but if I had it would have been little loss because there was another one standing in line ready to pay my asking price.
Old story.
When you are hungry and NEED the business, you sometimes give a discount just to get the business. It’s never a good idea to give a client a discount, so you have to REALLY need the business.
As you progress, you stop doing it.
The trick is to always be attracting larger and more sophisticated clients who dont ask for discounts.
Well in order for them to ask for one would mean i’ve done something to warrent it, i’d see if the case was fair and go from there.
Indeed. For example, if he charged $$ 1000 and raised by 10%, there would be $$ 1100. Then, after the discount of 10%, the price would drop to $$$ 990, which is a 1% final discount. However, the client will feel (s)he’s having a 10% discound nonetheless, which makes the client happier.
Just go the walmart approach. Everyday low prices.
I completely agree with tke71709. It depends if you need the work. If you have time to work on the site (or have the resources needed, since it is a smaller project), why would you say no to a small price drop?
I don’t know how easy it is for you guys to get clients, but I find it to be challenging at times, and $xxxx for a site with no backend is a no-brainer.
If you are a large company and don’t want to deal with someone with a small budget, I strongly recommend affiliating or partnering with a smaller web design company that you know is looking for clients and can provide good service. You can refer smaller clients to them, and if they come across a client that will be overwhelming, they can in turn send them in your direction.
If you still don’t want to do this guy’s site, feel free to give him my e-mail
Edit: Another thing I just thought of. If you ever deal with the mortgage business (I am just starting out myself), you will learn that most loan officers will do just about anything to outsell the other guy (lower rates, etc). A sale is a sale, and that sale could lead to more business (in this case maintenance, site redesign) and referalls in the future.
Also perhaps you could tell him for that “discounted” fee or whatever you will require a link or logo for your site somewhere on the page.