Dear Sitepoint, your prime minister thinks you're wasting your time

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If kids can’t read, write, and do arithmetic, then how does teaching them about computers at a young age help?

These things don’t have to do with each other. As far as I know, no one is saying we should somehow teach them to use a computer to read or write for them, or do math for them - although calculators are unfortunately taking away basic math. It’s a separate subject entirely. Fundamentals of programming/logic/methodology are a pretty crucial skill to have in today’s world. Even if languages are outdated in the years before they enter the workforce, the logic remains.

Americans, in particular, are as dumb as they are because no one knows how to function without technology.

I think that there are dumb people everywhere, no need to discriminate :wink:
I also think that technology is only a part of that problem. Also included: some of the worst educational policies/systems in the developed world; bad parenting; and laziness.

Can you image how maddening it is to have someone working at your bank who doesn’t know how to pronounce your balance in dollars and cents because the number is too big? (I could pronounce numbers in English into the millions and billions by probably age 10…)

Yes. Or when the power goes out in a supermarket, and they’re forced to close without checking out the items that people are still holding, even if card machines are still working, because the cashiers can’t do the math or even use a calculator accurately.

If kids don’t learn how to think first without technology, then giving them technology only makes things worse.

This is too broad of a statement. Should people learn to write with their hands, or do basic arithmetic without calculators? Yes. But again, apples to oranges, teaching programming logic has nothing to do with thinking first without technology. It’s the introduction of a new topic.

I make a living off of a computers, so obviously I see value in them. But I also can do long division on paper, construct proper English sentences. Be understood quite well in written and oral form. Know how to look words up in a dictionary. Know about basic things like U.S. history, geography, world cultures, and so on.

Congratulations?

In addition to mastering reading, writing and arithmetic, it would be nice if schools would teach things like world geography and cultures, diversity, tolerance, humility, social responsibility, volunteerism, and the Golden Rule. Then after that if they want to teach kids about technology, I’m all for it!

Most of that is in curriculum for schools already. I haven’t seen much about volunteerism, and social responsibility is hit or miss. Humility definitely depends on what you mean by that. Not even sure that’s school teachable. Culture and diversity can be taught, but if they’re in a rural backwater or a racially divided inner city, teaching it may not help.
I’d also love to see basic computer skills, programming logic, a home economics/life class that actually mattered (less baking and needlepoint and more an overview of life skills - doing laundry, running household appliances, basic first aid, CPR, FAST, changing a tire, sewing, etc). Things like that.

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Spoken from a geek view of the world.

Go tell an English Lit or Art major that their worls is all dependent on logic and they will laugh you out of the room.

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An important “part” of learning language involves language.

Writing involves mechanics and it also involves creativity. Creativity is often illogical.

Your geek filters are blinding you.

But, language and communication are not all about logic… (And your logic is failing right now.) :wink:

All pickup trucks are vehicles. Not all vehicles are pickup trucks.

I suppose that you need language in 90% of logic - although one can observe and think and reason without words to describe things (e.g. Einstein’s work discovering things for which there were not words yet.)

But language and using language to express oneself is not all about logic. That is what you and Jasmine are missing.

And when I talk about reading and writing, clearly I am pointing more to the creative aspects which are the polar opposite of logic.

The entire world is not about logic guys. (Apparently you have never been married, Ralph. if so, you would know your spouse is not always “logical”!) :smile:

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Amen, my sister!

My kids have been learning geometry and algebraic concepts since first grade (one’s in 9th, the other’s in 7th), but they still don’t know the times tables as cleanly as I would like. They can do them but they have to think about them - I could do through 12x12 before the end of third. But yet, they all know two and three different approaches to all the math functions. And they hate that I don’t let them use their calculators to do their homework, and I make them show their math!

But my kids have both passed their high school equivalency test for Math…go figure.

Same thing with English. Their whole curriculum has been literature based, yet they can’t spell to save their lives, and their concept of grammar is tenuous at best, though my seventh grader is much better since we realized what was happening to his brother. The time I spend editing their papers hurts - especially when I have to talk them through why AND get them to try and come up with more appropriate content.

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Today’s education pattern also doesn’t help. A teacher in our school system has even said “we present the information in class. It’s up to the students to learn it at home. There isn’t time for questions in class.” Excuse me? So if a kid doesn’t understand a concept, it’s not your job to help them understand it? WTF?

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Yeah. And the standards are terrible. My significant other is a high-school upper level math teacher. She says that between Common Core and testing (and in mixed classes, sometimes some students are on one standardized testing regime and others are on the previous one, or vice versa) they essentially do no real teaching. They just cram them with the facts they need to do well on the tests, and hope for the best. It’s frustrating to good teachers, frustrating to good parents, and doubly frustrating to the students who care… but… what do we do?

Other than reform the educational system in whatever region/country you live in, which no one seems to know how to do properly.

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Yeah, the common core (or it’s various permutations) is a good concept, but an epic fail in it’s implementation. We counted at one point last year, and my kids only had five days of learning in a month (20 days) of class time due to standardized testing, both state and district level. It was ridiculous.

My youngest just finished Algebra I (a HS level course, and one of the required courses needed to graduate in my state). However, the core testing for his grade in math did not include algebraic concepts, so they had to STOP what they were doing, review for the standardized test, take the standardized test, then get back to the teaching for the HS equivalency exam.

Or my oldest son finished Algebra I last year. He passed his HS equivalency test, but some of his friend’s did not. But since the kids passed the course itself, they moved onto the next subject (Geometry) and then had to retake the HS test WITHOUT REVIEW this year even though they were working on completely other skills. To say the parents of those students were unhappy was an understatement…

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But I am saying that people’s obsession with technology - just look at some people in this thread are convinced the whole Cosmos is about logic - is trumping other areas in learning which matter more.

If Suzy can’t read or write or do basic math, she can’t function in society. If she can’t program, she will get by.

I would rather live in a nation (i.e. the U.S.) where everyone knows how to construct proper English sentences and can do basic arithmetic, and has good communication skills, and knows about world religions and cultures and so on than a society where everyone is proficient with an iPad or with HTML…

[quote=“jeffreylees, post:21, topic:191758, full:true”]
It’s a separate subject entirely. Fundamentals of programming/logic/methodology are a pretty crucial skill to have in today’s world.[/quote]

Agreed, but not before the 3 R’s…

Agreed.

But if reasoning and logic are so important to you - and they are to me - then what about requiring classes in civics, debate team, entrepreneurship, first aid, etc?

Why is everything have to be done via a computer or computer program. (Why am I asking this in front of an audience of a milliion beautiful, yet clearly biased geeks?!) :smirk:

American ignorance kicks the hell out of anything the rest of you can come up with. Face, we dominate the world on this topic.

Out of like 25 industrialized nations, the United States is not only in the BOTTOM quartile in K-12 education, but unbeknownst to most people, the U.S. is also in the bottom-quartile in post-secondary education. (Sure we have the best colleges and universities in the world, but as a whole, out college students can’t compete with kids in Europe, Asia, and down under.)

Bad parenting and laziness can often be blamed on technology…

Amen,

But my point is that people put more and more emphasis on our need for more computer-related education and in a few years reading and writing will be outlawed. (Do you realize in some U.S. school districts they want to ban handwriting because the school boards see no value in it?!) :hushed:

Most kids in the U.S. can’t do those things competently, and yet they all are masters of smart devices and Facebook…

That is one of the best things said in this thread, and exactly what I hinted at above.

Jasmine and Ralph - God love them - seem convinced that everything is tied back to logic and further that logic ties back to learning programming.

I think we all need to be taught logic. I also know that that is about 50% of human experience.

But when we do teach logic, I think there is so much more than programming.

Learning an IF-THEN-ELSE or DO-WHILE loop will NOT teach an inner-city single mom about doing laundry or child rearing or starting a business or winning an argument and so on.

Thumbs up to you Mr. Jeffreylees on that very last comment!!!

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And a programming class won’t help your kids in those areas…

Having teachers teach kids to have some self-respect and appreciate the importance or both grammar (logic to some degree) and composition (creativity) is what is needed.

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If Suzy can’t read or write or do basic math, she can’t function in society. If she can’t program, she will get by.

That’s fair enough, although more and more, at least a basic understanding will help a lot - and the farther into the future we go, the more that will assist Suzy in her job searching even if not a programmer/IT career. And I definitely agree that basic reading/writing/etc is a higher priority - it doesn’t mean we can’t teach other things too though, for sure. And to be honest, I think the reading/writing failings are often at an age before I’d start programming, if it was me, but I am not at all an expert on the early childhood developmental process so I wouldn’t know :smiley:

American ignorance kicks the hell out of anything the rest of you can come up with. Face, we dominate the world on this topic.

Even if what you say is true (I don’t doubt it, really, just not sourced) it doesn’t mean there aren’t droves of similarly ignorant people all over; it also doesn’t mean that that ignorance is because of technology, and definitely not solely because of it. And it’s definitely not a blanket statement - all Americans certainly aren’t incapable of dealing without technology, certainly aren’t dumb. Although I’ll handily admit that driving the interstate on my way home will make me change that opinion :smiley: so catch me this evening and I’ll recant. Hah.

Bad parenting and laziness can often be blamed on technology…

Nah. Technology is a device that can assist or hinder parenting. People are the problem. There are people that just shouldn’t be allowed to be parents. Now that I have a child in school I’m already encountering stories that I can scarcely believe. If a child vegetates in front of a television and never learns to read, write, bike, or draw, is that the television’s fault, or the parent’s poor judgement?

But my point is that people put more and more emphasis on our need for more computer-related education and in a few years reading and writing will be outlawed. (Do you realize in some U.S. school districts they want to ban handwriting because the school boards see no value in it?!)

Reading and writing will be outlawed…? What? That doesn’t even make sense. Even in the modern Internet era, one must still be able to read! Where do you get that idea? And similarly people need to write, spell, and use grammar (sometimes poorly, but at least passably). Both on computers and on paper, as of yet.

If by handwriting you mean cursive handwriting, that is a different thing entirely. I’m all for removing it from curriculum. There is no value in it at all, in my mind.

Learning an IF-THEN-ELSE or DO-WHILE loop will NOT teach an inner-city single mom about doing laundry or child rearing or starting a business or winning an argument and so on.

That is true. Unless it helps her get a job in a field she desires?
But I get your point. My parents were wonderful, but they didn’t teach me a lot of life skills. I got married fairly soon after high school because I was young and in love and making dubious quality decisions, and I had no idea how to do my own laundry, cook, sew, or any number of household, family, car, and other maintenance/life tasks that would’ve been very helpful to learn in school. Lots of other courses were less useful than those would’ve been!

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