I'm not sure if i'm allowed to share this - but it made me gasp

Community
21

Think of it like this, are you going to buy for something of low quality? What if you could get that low quality piece of junk for free? You’re more liking to pick up junk if it is for free and you know you can get it for free.

Personally, I don’t download anything illegally, Ebay is where I can get anything filthy dirt cheap. I buy legal (and more often than not, new + sealed) copies of games, books and CDs at next to nothing prices. If they cost too much, I just wait until they are cheap. That’s how committed to being cheap I am. It takes discipline (and lots of searching) to be cheap and moral with the invention of p2p networks. Plus, I like my products to be physical, the touch of a book, cd or game box is way better than the code email notification that you own something.

Piracy? who cares. There will always be a black market, get over it. As long as you cover your costs. It’s part of business. If you don’t make something of quality, of course no one will buy it and that’s your failure as a business person.

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Just a little correction.

Downloading is not illegal… necessarily. Even if it is copyrighted material. Some countries don’t have a law about it, some countries did forbid downloading copyrighted material and some countries make you pay a tax just in case… although they suggest that even the Creative Commons license is the worst thing invented :slight_smile:

It would be interesting to get the figures not on how may pirated copies are around, but how many people truly didn’t buy their copy beause they found it available for free, and how to conver those on customers.

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You may not, but according to the law in most countries with modern intellectual property rules, it’s theft. Whether someone benefits or not isn’t really a concept of whether it’s theft or not.

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I am actually quite quilty on this. Mostly Games

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In most developing nations it’s actually very difficult to buy legitimate DVDs and CDs. For example, Blockbuster pulled out of Peru a few years ago and there are now no video rental places at all, and very few places to buy legal music. Most people just buy CDs and DVDs brand new, pirated of course, which is of a very high quality and very cheap. You can even go to markets where you can search through a database, you choose what you want and they burn it for you on the spot in a couple of minutes. It’s an industry that’s grown to the point that it almost seems legitimate - it’s everywhere, out in the open.

Right or wrong, it’s a losing battle and I think producers unfortunately simply have to adapt to the reality of it.

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Well that’s not quite true.

Under UK law theft is (to paraphrase) dishonestly appropriating property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. ie - That person no longer has the use of the object.

Downloading an unauthorised digital copy is in most cases a civil tort of copyright infringement (well in most cases if you aren’t trying to profit off the piracy).

These are pretty different no matter how much the various industries try to equate them. It was still piracy and copyright infringement when people 20 years ago used to make mixtapes for their friends/lovers (and the industry kicked up a fuss about taping killing music), but I don’t think people really argued morally against it. Yes it is on a much smaller scale, and the effect on the industry was negligible if not positive, but if you are going to equate copyright infringement to theft - that should be in the same boat.

Now I’m not trying to justify piracy, and the scale of it today is a major issue for all intellectual property industries - I do a lot of work with bands and record labels, and see first hand the damage being done to many of them - but downloading is not the same as theft.

Unlike music, however, I see a deeper problem with piracy for book publishers and film studios as there is no way for them to make money from touring, licensing deals, etc. Once Kindles/Nooks/iPads/etc become commonplace the publishing industry will have some major problems as file sizes are so small and so are very easy to share. I personally can’t see myself ditching hardcopy books anytime soon (I still buy my music on vinyl (which coincidentally tend to come with free and legal high quality mp3 downloads too these days which is great)), but as technology progresses on colour e-ink, portability and battery life I’m sure I will eventually.

As of ways to take on the problem…

I think some form of subscription option may work - where authors could release the code examples separately, or release each chapter weekly/monthly as soon as it is written. The pace at which technical or internet related books become relatively obsolete means that getting the information early is a scarcity that could be monetised.

Private live workshops sold along with the books could also be another way to add value, as people could get priority answers to their questions related to the book or even on related topics from the expert in the field that has written the book.

On a related note - how effective do you feel PiracyGuard has been for Sitepoint so far and what made you choose them over their competitors such as WebSheriff?

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Let me make it clear: I’m completely against piracy. I wanted to make this clear as often when I make this argument people confuse it with supporting the pirates.

Alas, I think you’re wasting your time using companies like these. They may have success with take-down notices but people who really want to find something will always find it. It also only takes one host in a country with different laws to ours to reject your take-down notice or ignore it and people can still find your books. Besides this, there is a whole other level of piracy that exists behind closed doors on private ftps, private forums, newsgroups, private torrent trackers etc. that you’ll never hit.

I don’t have a solution to your problem as I’m just a programmer. I could probably stop people pirating your digitally distributed books and give ideas how you could watermark print copies (which would also work for identifying the source of people who scanned books) but publishers will never invest in these things as it cuts into their profits.

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Check out Steam. The prices vary from cheaper to more expencive than buying in store, but beats the convenience even of the pirated games.

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It all boils down to risk VS reward. There is little to no risk involved in downloading electronic media, and the reward can be in the thousands of dollars for things like suites of Adobe tools.

As long as there is little to no risk, people will continue to do it.

As much as everyone hates them, the RIAA has the right idea.

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I can’t agree with that statement as regards the creative industries. I forget which musician said it last month, but currently what makes us love these creative things is how they ellicit emotional responses and what each song, films, or book

There’s the song that defined a period of your life and brings memories flooding back - whether that is memories of first love, travelling, or whatever - we have emotional responses. You will never forget the song you lost your virginity too.

Similarly, there are books that made you re-evaluate your life or your experiences, or remind you of situations you’ve faced, and films that do the same and even the cinema trip may bring back strong memories.

If you are the band or author that suddenly reminds people of when you or a friend were sued to bankrupsy for - that emotional response that gives creative intellectual property value is suddenly diminished.

Going after the uploaders does not have the same downside as straight up suing your own fans. Also, laws are not the same the world over (and they shouldn’t be either as they developed from different cultures to protect different sectors differently), so people will just go more anonymous if they feel threatened in this way by using international VPNs or similar.

Again I don’t support piracy - but it is here to stay, and the litigation route is not successful and with the scale of the problem will never be so.

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Some would argue what is the point in buying software, who are you going to show the box too ?

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So, one thing I have wondered, what is the difference between downloading a book, reading it, then deleting it after two weeks, and checking a book out of the library for two weeks? As far as I can tell, the library provides a slight fraction of a cent more profit to the publisher than the initial uploader.

I’ve never pirated a Sitepoint book, but I also have never bought one at full price. I’ve always waited until you have a sale. To be blunt, 30+ dollars is way more than what I consider your books to be worth. Plus, I’m a student living on loans, I can’t afford to be frivolous.

Also, take-down notices are a waste of money. You will never get be able to beat the pirates. They will always find another place to upload your books. It’s wrong, they shouldn’t do that, but they do.

The solution is, as at least one other post said, is to figure out how to use piracy to make money.

One way to reduce the number of people who download illegally would be to stop charging extra for buying both the hard copy and the pdf. If I bought the hard copy, I’d just have to scan it in to get a pdf. Why should I waste my time on that, when I can get the pdf free? After all, I already paid for it. Or at least reduce the extra price for the pdf to something reasonable. Like a couple bucks.

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In our case, they have to install our software to a website, and we have had great success with hosts helping us by taking those sites offline. Most major hosts have hundreds of sites on their servers using our software, and we have a good relationship with them, and even get expedited service. Generally, hosts don’t like to monkey around with users involved in illegal activities as they are more trouble than they are worth.

When we do catch people (and we do look around frequently), the site gets taken offline, and they really have no choice but to get a license, and can also be in danger of losing their hosting account, domain name or both. We don’t get into why the software is unlicensed or how they obtained. Either they have a license or not, and if not, the host takes the site offline. Sometimes they get multiple sites taken down at once.

Anyways, we have been quite pleased with 99.99% of hosts and their willingness to help us.

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And many many people have always claimed, the more that’s pirated the more that sells, but I’m still not sure how to take that.

I think that statement comes from the idea that anything highly pirated is very popular, and therefore also gets bought as well. Or, with anything indie, it may start out download-only, before gaining enough momentum to get available from a real publisher/record label/software company. That’s not the same as piracy encouraging purchase… I don’t think it usually does (may in some cases).

So, one thing I have wondered, what is the difference between downloading a book, reading it, then deleting it after two weeks, and checking a book out of the library for two weeks? As far as I can tell, the library provides a slight fraction of a cent more profit to the publisher than the initial uploader.

Well, usually libraries buy those copies. Our libraries paid full cost, unless they were getting something like Harry Potter books where they’d buy several copies… then they’d get bulk and library discount.

Borrowing isn’t stealing. However things like books are often consumed once, so borrowing can prevent buying. That can be a problem (for the author). Games, software, music, are more long-term use.

I’m also in a country where the laws state very clearly that downloading is legal. However, uploading is illegal, so torrenting anything illegal is itself illegal here.

I’ve never copied a book from online. I have downloaded music. Any bands/groups I like, I either go to the concerts, buy stuff (shirts), and/or try to get hard copies, because of the fact that they survive as musicians by selling music. If I like them, I need to support them. It’s like, my duty as a fan.

Something like a SitePoint book, at least in a field I have an interest in, is something I would always pay for. SitePoint often has free chapters so you can get the feel of how it’s written for free. I would figure that anyone getting free ones from pirate centers, if they get a benefit from the books, would save up and buy one— the HTML Utopia book, after it was read and done, was still sitting on my desk for another year as an easy, on-paper lookup of CSS properties in Appendix C.

Other stuff related to computers, information being free and online is what contributes to the growth of the internet. I can look up anything about Perl online, despite all the books. I needed to remember how to do something in vi over the weekend: it was online in a bazillion places. I think this is where the idea that programming and web design books are ok to download… it’s been a strong part of the online and programming culture for a while now, in my opinion. We’ll see what it does to publishers…

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Piracy does not necessarily indicate a lost sale. You cannot lose a sale you were never going to get. Most people who download pirated works are not ever going to buy it. They download it because it is there and available to them. With hard drives the size of terabytes and high speed internet, the temptation is to go wild and download everything you can get your hands on. Some people do.

I stopped downloading MP3s when Lars Ulrich from Metallica started acting like a big baby because he wasn’t getting his royalties and the RIAA started suing people. Almost everything I ever downloaded I was never going to buy because I did not like it enough to pay money for it. If it was there for the taking, sure, I’d grab it. But if something had enough value to me, I would buy it. MP3s are an inferior format and CDs sound better. I like physical books over digital books, anyway. Reading a digital book does not do it for me and I find it inefficient, at least with the PDF versions of free books I’ve seen. So if I found something I liked, I would buy it. I would settle with an electronic version if the price was right.

I happen to think that e-commerce never grew as big as predicted because the prices for which things sell offers little economic benefit. If I go to Best Buy to buy something or buy it on the manufacturer’s website, I pay pretty much the same price.

Looking for a pirated version of something online is hit or miss, anyway. If you look for something, odds are you are not going to find it. So you grab whatever is there. If that happens to be a Sitepoint book, someone is going to grab it if it is there.

Bottom line: I would not take piracy figures as measures of lost sales.

As far as you holier-than-thou “copyright infringers are crooks” people, how many of you have watched a copyrighted work on Youtube uploaded without the copyright holder’s consent? Let he who lives without copyright sin cast the first stone. :lol:

Basically, the guy is upset because he isn’t getting paid for sitting on his butt doing nothing? :rolleyes:

I support eliminating copyright protections for music and movies. Give the producers one year to make money, then *&^% them. If these people want a regular income they can get up and go to work everyday like the rest of us.

People don’t seem to realize an important fact (at least in the USA): there is no constitutionally guaranteed right to intangible intellectual property rights. They are granted by the people and can thus be taken away by the people. And I think they should be taken away. The music and movie industry is by far the most profitable and most of them pretend to support wealth redistribution to rectify income inequities, anyway. Let’s give them what they ask for, I say.

By the way, I haven’t downloaded a pirated MP3 in years, have never downloaded a pirated movie (I don’t waste time with movies), and haven’t looked for serial numbers to activate trial software to full versions in years. But if I found an MP3 I was interested in, you never know, I just might download it. :slight_smile: But I might not.

Copyright infringement is largely an opportunity “crime”.

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You raise a good point. What would sales be if electronic versions were $5? There is a pricing point where revenue is maximized. It usually isn’t the highest possible price and isn’t the lowest possible price. In reality, it is impossible to tell where it is without a lot of experimentation.

Would Wal-Mart have been as successful charging top dollar as they have been charging close to the lowest prices?

Let us not forget we are just coming out of a global economic downturn. More people are probably turning away from legitimate purchases and looking for something pirated and some will shift back when the economy recovers.

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MP3s are an inferior format and CDs sound better. I like physical books over digital books, anyway.

++, quoted for truth.

People don’t seem to realize an important fact (at least in the USA): there is no constitutionally guaranteed right to intangible intellectual property rights.

Well, doesn’t the Constitution only mention “property”? Anyway, I’m mostly against software patents and regional encoding, but copyright I believe is essential: it’s basically the foundation of copyleft, which allows people to create and share things like programming languages and software, without having to worry that some Big Evil Corporation will take it, modify it slightly, then prosecute anyone else giving away or using the old software by claiming it’s theirs (I remember SCO Linux fight). Without copyright, there is no copyleft. Copyright is also how people can fight big companies from stealing their stuff and getting rich off others’ work (remember how Disney and everyone else basically made off like bandits with The Lion Sleeps Tonight song and sold thousands of copies?? Sometimes I find the whole royalty-suing thing bogus, but here it was necessary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Linda#Death).

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I don’t try to justify piracy. Some people say that it’s alright if the producer in question is some big company, and yet others say that it is definitely wrong. Who is to say who is right? Arguing on morals is shaky ground, and you are just going to hear the same old arguments that lead nowhere. I am more interested in the practical effects of piracy. Yes, one person pirating (especially if it’s a big company) will not make a difference – there is no doubt about that. However, it is when others join you that it is a problem. In that case, my take on piracy is that, if you decide to pirate, then keep it yourself and lie to everyone else – say you bought it. Don’t try to rationalize it with other people. At least your friend won’t join you, or will his or her friends, which would greatly multiply the damage.

Copyright must exist though. Without it, people would have no incentive to spend their hard work if they are not going to be able to benefit or support their life.

From a producer’s point of view, my opinion is that piracy is inevitable and one should do what is necessary to understand the motivations for piracy and reduce the incentive for it. I generally don’t believe in after going people, except when you can actually going after a significant majority of pirates, because it is usually not very effective. In many cases, figuring out why the piracy exists and closing off that reasoning hole works much better. What iTunes did to reduce piracy was probably much more than what the RIAA did. It provided very convenient access to individual songs at reasonable prices during a time when P2P was the only real source of that, and for free too.

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Phrase “morally wrong” is being thrown out in this discussion and it doesn’t belong here.
You’re assuming that you’re moral verticals for buying things that shouldn’t get charged in the first place.

Capitalism is one of the worst systems human kind invented, and since we live in such system and in an era where world is governed by wealth in form of money - you cannot deem one a thief for taking something that holds knowledge.

I never saw an entertainer starving to death because someone from Macedonia downloaded their album and listened to it.
I never saw anyone from Sitepoint begging for money at the street or digging holes for living because someone from Romania downloaded their book over torrent.

Sorry to say, but this discussion is really pointless. Your starting point, that theft = piracy is simply wrong. Piracy is a neccessity of modern age. There are many brilliant minds out there who cannot get the knowledge they seek for the “regular” way. It’s one thing if someone breaks into your appartment and physically steals a book you wrote and completely another if a transcript of your book finds itself in electronic format ready for masses to read.

What if I bought your book and gave it to my local library where hundreds of people could borrow it and read it? Are they thieves?

What if I hear a catchy song and I reproduce it on my guitar and I sing it in my own free time? Am I a thief for being able to remember a song and replay it?

It boils down to this: people who use pirated software want the same things that people who buy the software get. What you’re doing is promoting segregation. I live in a 3rd world country, hence I do not deserve to obtain the knowledge you have laid out on a silver pladder because there are no means or resources for me to buy the media you’re selling. Basically, I need to sit there in my stone age, wait for my country to evolve and in 10 years when the means become available - I can obtain the thing you held all these years. And you call that morally right.

Morally right and wrong doesn’t exist here I’m afraid, with so many injustices, wars and what not around - piracy is the least of mankinds’ problems. And I’m really sad to see how many jumped the “piracy is the holocaust of the internet” train. With so much money involved in stopping piracy, much better things could have been made and achieved. Greed is your enemy, it’s just sad to see so many educated people fall to it.

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Firstly, I’m going to state for the record as a book author AND a software developer who has had both ripped, torrented, keygen’d and whatever else in epic measure all over the web… I don’t see the issue of piracy being too much of an issue whatsoever (as much as I’d wish people would pay for everything). I agree with everything molona has so far stated as to reasons why people choose to pirate (or self-justify their actions) and I don’t really understand why people think somehow pirates constitute a lost sale… thousands of people pirate photoshop who would have never purchased it due to it’s heavy price tag (and would thus have never been able to afford it) - does that mean their a lost customer… no. While I’m not trying to legitimize such actions (even if the price is cheap) I can totally understand why people act like that and it’s worth pointing out that people who pirate stuff do on occasion become legitimate customers to which otherwise they wouldn’t have on the basis of sampling what was on offer and then buying it out of enjoyment of the product. I think the saying “you cannot lose what you never had” sums up the situation best… piracy happens, don’t dwell on it, just focus on two separate models… one for the paying customers (what you usually do) and encouragement for pirates to become legitimate customers as a separate market - however you do that is up to you, just as JJMcClure correctly put forward, while they may be stealing your stuff, it doesn’t mean you can’t attempt to reach out to them! I’ve had emails from people who said they downloaded a torrent of my stuff and purchased it as a result.

Yes and if you follow the letter of the law exactly within the United Kingdom, if you’ve ever ripped a CD to your personal computer and or MP3 player without express written consent from the artist and record label, you are a criminal. There’s been legal presidence in the past to state that the ripping of media of any kind for consumption on the media you choose does not register as fair use or personal use… it’s copyright infringement plain and straight (under law). So about 78% of the British population (according to national statistics) should be convicted of criminal offences under intellectual property legislation (as if jail’s weren’t full enough). :slight_smile:

The law in relation to digital media and goods was written by a bunch of bureaucratic morons who don’t have the slightest comprehension of technology and are being “paid off” by the RIAA and the MPAA. Just look at the latest thing to make it’s way into British law the Digital Economy Act… which states that just the idea that you may be pirating media can result in criminal convictions or your Internet connection being shut down permanently… as the laws are presenting themselves (worldwide) it may well end up that if your suspected of pirating media, you’ll end up getting convicted and jailed with a longer sentence than a paedophile or serial killer. Think I’m being over dramatic? The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and other human rights groups don’t think so. :frowning:

PS: There’s strong evidence to support the RIAA/MPAA have been instigating (paying organizations) for self-legitimized computer hacking (to “find” evidence of piracy on unsuspecting computer owners machines), DDoS attacks (Revision3 incident), trojan (the Kazaa incidents) and rootkit spreading (Sony’s DRM fiasco) as methods to either find or prevent what they deem as piracy. So if their allowed to get away with crimes under law depicted as cyber terrorism, why can’t people pirate? :stuck_out_tongue: