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mattymcg · Dec 23, 2008, 20:13

Notice: This is a discussion thread for comments about the SitePoint article, The Role of Design in Modern Church Marketing.
__________

Plenty to discuss here folks, but please remember to keep on topic. Probably worth me stating that this is about design and branding, not religion. Please keep this in mind.

Btw great write-up Darren, and beautiful screenshots!

Oh, and this is the final article on SitePoint for the year—see you all next year for more great tutorials, showcases, interviews etc. I'm off to consume more BBQ and beer on the balcony! Merry Xmas all!

Dan Schulz · Dec 23, 2008, 22:07

That is a wonderful writeup, Darren. I also like the Stonebridge.org design as well. I'd have liked to see more thought about what went into the design and how designers work with these particular clients, but for an overview, you did a stand-up job.

Dec 24, 2008, 07:04

What a fascinating and well written article. It seems a shame that it has been put out now, when perhaps it may get read less because of the festive break! Oh well, I enjoyed it and some of the screenshots have inspired me from a design point of view.

drhowarddrfine · Dec 24, 2008, 07:43

I thought that was going to be one of the goofiest article ideas ever on Sitepoint but it wound up being very interesting.

dvduval · Dec 24, 2008, 08:23

I suppose like any website, you want something that reflects the mission of the church. And in today's environment a website can be a critical part of having a successful business, or in this case a successful church.

BlakeAnthony · Dec 24, 2008, 12:24

wow, those are some nice church designs. The website's make you feel like your really entering a church. They all have that "Grungy" look. I have to agree with dan the Stonebridge.org website & he gcomchurch are my favorite design's out of all them. Good article.

kikykuang · Dec 24, 2008, 18:22

First we should orient who view the site, then we should accord to the behaviour to design it.
Merry Christmas to all!

fashiontrends · Dec 24, 2008, 21:42

What a fascinating and well written article. It seems a shame that it has been put out now, when perhaps it may get read less because of the festive break! Oh well,

JREAM · Dec 25, 2008, 08:30

I really like the Stone site too even before anyone said anything

I was thinking how nice that looks. I think the grunge used to look cool but in my opinion the trend should die! I can't think of any sites I regularly visit that are grungy, but once and a while they look nice. Even though the grunge looks really nice, I wont lie about that its cool looking like a video game menu, its too distracting most of the time for my simple little mind :P

I think this is a really good article because this is something I noticed sub consciously but not enough to put out there and realize that its a popular trend stirring.

This site: http://www.jentezenfranklin.org/fasting/ was pretty good in my opinion, the backgrounds grungy but it doesnt leave the content too busy. I like minimal grunge like that

risoknop · Dec 25, 2008, 09:00

Personally, I find grunge style for church website to be a sort of a disaster. I don't like grunge at any website but grunge+church is a fail.

I would rather see religious websites to have more simple and clean designs.

ryanhellyer · Dec 25, 2008, 23:07

A large number of my clients are churches. They seem to be trying to do their web development in-house and seek professional help when they get stuck or need help.

Here are two off the shelf WordPress themes designed specifically with church related websites in mind which I think look really great:
http://revolutiontwo.com/demo/church.html
http://www.ministrytheme.com/demo/

somecallmejosh · Dec 26, 2008, 05:52

@risoknop, I agree that the grunge approach seems a bit out of context for religious sites. Most of the sites in this article look like "Rock Band" websites.

@Darryn, would you consider the Stonebriar site above a "grunge" site? Didn't I see this site listed in Web Designer, or Practical Web Design magazine about a year ago? I don't see any traditional Catholic, or Episcopalian, or Protestant, or Lutheran, or Baptist, or ... churches. Do you believe this grunge style to be better suited for a "non denominational, or evangelical" place of worship?

@ryanhellyer, I like the revolutiontwo site. Which template is that?

bbolte · Dec 26, 2008, 08:16

Interesting article. There could really be some interesting topics for conversation/discussion on some of the points mentioned in the article, but alas, it would probably fall out of bounds of some rules. On the design note though, I found it an interesting look at the process of web design and capturing the true essence of a client.

Datura · Dec 26, 2008, 08:51

Natural for churches today to go to grunge. They hope to lure in the young people with this approach. The music that is produces is geared toward that as well. Very clever

ryanhellyer · Dec 26, 2008, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by somecallmejosh

@ryanhellyer, I like the revolutiontwo site. Which template is that?

Revolution Two Church.

It's my favourite theme at revolutiontwo.com. Although I suspect most people will be using it for non-church purposes as it looks pretty slick as a generic magazine style theme.

Black Max · Dec 26, 2008, 20:16

I'm glad SP published this article. My wife is exploring local churches as well as some national (US) ministries, and thusly I've seen a lot of church websites in the last months.

I do have a caveat, and it doesn't come under the heading of organized religion so much as it comes under branding. I think that some churches who go for the grunge look -- or even goth/heavy metal, as I've seen a few times, oddly enough -- risk doing their church and their membership a disservice. It's all well and good to try to appeal to a younger, more edgy audience, but I think that some churches run the risk of misrepresenting themselves by going too far with their designs. Are they really a "grunge" church? Do they play Nirvana during services? Does the pastor wear flannel shirts and torn jeans? I'm being facetious, but by having such sites, a church provides an expectation which their services and ministries may not provide. As a result, they disappoint an already cynical youth population who might come to their church with expectations raised by the site that are not fulfilled by what they find inside the church itself.

Worse, it speaks to a certain insecurity: we're not settled with who we are as a church, so we'll use a design that will attract people to something that we are not. Then maybe we can do something that will overcome their failed expectations, and hopefully satisfy them with something they initially did not expect.

I think this applies to any design and branding scheme for any organization or business. I wouldn't use a Ramones-like theme for the site I design for the local nursing home ("hey ho, let's go to the loo"), nor would I use a Teletubbies-like theme for the local rave site. Your design should reflect who you are. It should not entice people to come to you by representing yourself as something or someone you are not.

Not saying that any of the churches represented in this article are doing this. I'm just making general observations. Maybe it's post-Christmas grumpiness (although I'm fairly grumpy fairly often...

).

bbolte · Dec 26, 2008, 22:14

Well said Max...

russianzio · Dec 27, 2008, 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Max

Does the pastor wear flannel shirts and torn jeans? I'm being facetious, but by having such sites, a church provides an expectation which their services and ministries may not provide.

They do provide it online and most of the visitors would just be internet surfers. Most of the youngsters would never go to that type of a church unless its online

Newviewit · Dec 27, 2008, 12:36

Grunge designs are for a niche demographic... so they are alienating a wide group of young people by just sticking to grunge designs.

Church designs in my opinion need to fit the needs of everyone like Stonebridge.org.

somecallmejosh · Dec 27, 2008, 20:30

Quote:

Maybe it's post-Christmas grumpiness (although I'm fairly grumpy fairly often...)

Nice. ;-)
I do agree with your sentiments, despite any grumpiness. Grunge Church Design would work for Jesus Christ Superstar type Churches... which would actually be pretty cool. I'd stop in to hear the band one Sunday morning.

Black Max · Dec 27, 2008, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by somecallmejosh

Grunge Church Design would work for Jesus Christ Superstar type Churches... which would actually be pretty cool. I'd stop in to hear the band one Sunday morning.

Exactly my point. Unless the church actually practiced a Jesus Christ Superstar type of ministry (doubtful), then to give that impression on its site and not follow through in the reality of the ministry is misleading. Ultimately, as Newviewit says, it will drive away more potential members than it will attract. I won't go into details here, but a lot of American Christian denominations seem to spend more time attracting newcomers than actually ministering to the needs of the people who attend their churches. Not all, by any stretch, but a lot.

Another caveat: I know the common perception is that most Web surfers are GenX teens and twentysomethings, but that is absolutely dead wrong. There are a LOT of older people using the Internet every day. I can't imagine a lot of older potential members -- not to mention older people who are already members -- being pleased with some of the designs I saw. (As an amateur designer, I thought some of the designs were terrific. I can't imagine a lot of members would agree from their viewpoints.)

It goes back to a fundamental concept of design and branding: stay true to who you are as a person, an organization, a business, or a church. I can't imagine some of these grunge sites meet that concept.

somecallmejosh · Dec 28, 2008, 18:36

Quote:

I won't go into details here, but a lot of American Christian denominations seem to spend more time attracting newcomers than actually ministering to the needs of the people who attend their churches.

It's like the recent Mac commercial where PC is putting all it's money into advertising, rather than fixing Vista.

Black Max · Dec 28, 2008, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by somecallmejosh

It's like the recent Mac commercial where PC is putting all it's money into advertising, rather than fixing Vista.

I won't say that any of these churches need "fixing," per se....

More like the car commercials that advertise plain-vanilla four-door sedans as racy, sexy "sports cars." If the car's designed to ferry the kids and the groceries around town, advertise it that way, don't show me bikini-clad girls draped all over it as it revs on a racetrack. (Not that I object to bikini-clad ladies as a matter of course....) Whether you're appealing to the Lamborghini, the Corvette, or the Family Truckster crowd, your site should reach out to that audience.

ww1319 · Dec 29, 2008, 09:56

Excellent article! I found it extremely interesting. I am the webmaster for the church I attend and we are looking to revamp our website in 2009. Currently, the site is very clean and functional, almost too clean. We want to introduce a little more personality into it without going overboard.

Dec 30, 2008, 12:06

Great article! In response to the Vista and sedan references, this re-imaging reminds me of someone's dad trying to look "hip."

I also wonder how sustainable these designs are. How long will they last before they look dated? How long before kids think they're dated?

These seem to appeal solely to 13-24 yr. olds. What about all of the other people churches are supposed to minister to? This stuff obviously isn't aimed at single moms, professionals, o.g. church-goers, etc. At the moment, it seems these sites have the single-minded purpose of trying to attract skaters and/or d-bags (although, I would donate good money to an organization trying to rehabilitate the latter...).

Dec 26, 2008, 20:16	#16
Black Max Lackey to Felines Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,351	I'm glad SP published this article. My wife is exploring local churches as well as some national (US) ministries, and thusly I've seen a lot of church websites in the last months. I do have a caveat, and it doesn't come under the heading of organized religion so much as it comes under branding. I think that some churches who go for the grunge look -- or even goth/heavy metal, as I've seen a few times, oddly enough -- risk doing their church and their membership a disservice. It's all well and good to try to appeal to a younger, more edgy audience, but I think that some churches run the risk of misrepresenting themselves by going too far with their designs. Are they really a "grunge" church? Do they play Nirvana during services? Does the pastor wear flannel shirts and torn jeans? I'm being facetious, but by having such sites, a church provides an expectation which their services and ministries may not provide. As a result, they disappoint an already cynical youth population who might come to their church with expectations raised by the site that are not fulfilled by what they find inside the church itself. Worse, it speaks to a certain insecurity: we're not settled with who we are as a church, so we'll use a design that will attract people to something that we are not. Then maybe we can do something that will overcome their failed expectations, and hopefully satisfy them with something they initially did not expect. I think this applies to any design and branding scheme for any organization or business. I wouldn't use a Ramones-like theme for the site I design for the local nursing home ("hey ho, let's go to the loo"), nor would I use a Teletubbies-like theme for the local rave site. Your design should reflect who you are. It should not entice people to come to you by representing yourself as something or someone you are not. Not saying that any of the churches represented in this article are doing this. I'm just making general observations. Maybe it's post-Christmas grumpiness (although I'm fairly grumpy fairly often...).

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Dec 23, 2008, 20:13	#1
mattymcg Team SitePoint Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 566	Notice: This is a discussion thread for comments about the SitePoint article, The Role of Design in Modern Church Marketing. __________ Plenty to discuss here folks, but please remember to keep on topic. Probably worth me stating that this is about design and branding, not religion. Please keep this in mind. Btw great write-up Darren, and beautiful screenshots! Oh, and this is the final article on SitePoint for the year—see you all next year for more great tutorials, showcases, interviews etc. I'm off to consume more BBQ and beer on the balcony! Merry Xmas all!

Dec 23, 2008, 22:07	#2
Dan Schulz In memoriam Join Date: May 2006 Location: Aurora, Illinois Posts: 15,648	That is a wonderful writeup, Darren. I also like the Stonebridge.org design as well. I'd have liked to see more thought about what went into the design and how designers work with these particular clients, but for an overview, you did a stand-up job.

Dec 24, 2008, 07:04	#3
John Boy SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	What a fascinating and well written article. It seems a shame that it has been put out now, when perhaps it may get read less because of the festive break! Oh well, I enjoyed it and some of the screenshots have inspired me from a design point of view.

Dec 24, 2008, 07:43	#4
drhowarddrfine SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,433	I thought that was going to be one of the goofiest article ideas ever on Sitepoint but it wound up being very interesting.

Dec 24, 2008, 08:23	#5
dvduval phpLD Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 3,259	I suppose like any website, you want something that reflects the mission of the church. And in today's environment a website can be a critical part of having a successful business, or in this case a successful church.

Dec 24, 2008, 12:24	#6
BlakeAnthony Javascript Monstaa Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cuyahoga Falls,Ohio Posts: 1,228	wow, those are some nice church designs. The website's make you feel like your really entering a church. They all have that "Grungy" look. I have to agree with dan the Stonebridge.org website & he gcomchurch are my favorite design's out of all them. Good article.

Dec 24, 2008, 18:22	#7
kikykuang SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 167	First we should orient who view the site, then we should accord to the behaviour to design it. Merry Christmas to all!

Dec 24, 2008, 21:42	#8
fashiontrends SitePoint Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1	What a fascinating and well written article. It seems a shame that it has been put out now, when perhaps it may get read less because of the festive break! Oh well,

Dec 25, 2008, 08:30	#9
JREAM John 8:24 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,083	I really like the Stone site too even before anyone said anything I was thinking how nice that looks. I think the grunge used to look cool but in my opinion the trend should die! I can't think of any sites I regularly visit that are grungy, but once and a while they look nice. Even though the grunge looks really nice, I wont lie about that its cool looking like a video game menu, its too distracting most of the time for my simple little mind :P I think this is a really good article because this is something I noticed sub consciously but not enough to put out there and realize that its a popular trend stirring. This site: http://www.jentezenfranklin.org/fasting/ was pretty good in my opinion, the backgrounds grungy but it doesnt leave the content too busy. I like minimal grunge like that

Dec 25, 2008, 09:00	#10
risoknop SitePoint Guru Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: end($world) Posts: 736	Personally, I find grunge style for church website to be a sort of a disaster. I don't like grunge at any website but grunge+church is a fail. I would rather see religious websites to have more simple and clean designs.

Dec 25, 2008, 23:07	#11
ryanhellyer SitePoint Mentor Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,248	A large number of my clients are churches. They seem to be trying to do their web development in-house and seek professional help when they get stuck or need help. Here are two off the shelf WordPress themes designed specifically with church related websites in mind which I think look really great: http://revolutiontwo.com/demo/church.html http://www.ministrytheme.com/demo/

Dec 26, 2008, 05:52	#12
somecallmejosh SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: CT Posts: 153	@risoknop, I agree that the grunge approach seems a bit out of context for religious sites. Most of the sites in this article look like "Rock Band" websites. @Darryn, would you consider the Stonebriar site above a "grunge" site? Didn't I see this site listed in Web Designer, or Practical Web Design magazine about a year ago? I don't see any traditional Catholic, or Episcopalian, or Protestant, or Lutheran, or Baptist, or ... churches. Do you believe this grunge style to be better suited for a "non denominational, or evangelical" place of worship? @ryanhellyer, I like the revolutiontwo site. Which template is that?

Dec 26, 2008, 08:16	#13
bbolte Do or do not, there is no try Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Central Plains Posts: 3,213	Interesting article. There could really be some interesting topics for conversation/discussion on some of the points mentioned in the article, but alas, it would probably fall out of bounds of some rules. On the design note though, I found it an interesting look at the process of web design and capturing the true essence of a client.

Dec 26, 2008, 08:51	#14
Datura So? Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida USA Posts: 5,565	Natural for churches today to go to grunge. They hope to lure in the young people with this approach. The music that is produces is geared toward that as well. Very clever

Dec 26, 2008, 22:14	#17
bbolte Do or do not, there is no try Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Central Plains Posts: 3,213	Well said Max...

Dec 27, 2008, 12:36	#19
Newviewit SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 193	Grunge designs are for a niche demographic... so they are alienating a wide group of young people by just sticking to grunge designs. Church designs in my opinion need to fit the needs of everyone like Stonebridge.org.

Dec 29, 2008, 09:56	#24
ww1319 SitePoint Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 23	Excellent article! I found it extremely interesting. I am the webmaster for the church I attend and we are looking to revamp our website in 2009. Currently, the site is very clean and functional, almost too clean. We want to introduce a little more personality into it without going overboard.

Dec 30, 2008, 12:06	#25
Laurel H SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	Great article! In response to the Vista and sedan references, this re-imaging reminds me of someone's dad trying to look "hip." I also wonder how sustainable these designs are. How long will they last before they look dated? How long before kids think they're dated? These seem to appeal solely to 13-24 yr. olds. What about all of the other people churches are supposed to minister to? This stuff obviously isn't aimed at single moms, professionals, o.g. church-goers, etc. At the moment, it seems these sites have the single-minded purpose of trying to attract skaters and/or d-bags (although, I would donate good money to an organization trying to rehabilitate the latter...).