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coryl · May 13, 2006, 03:22

Hey guys, I'm starting to see new technology take hold of mainstream websites, making them cleaner, resizable to resolutions, and fast loading. Pretty much things like ajax and CSS which I haven't fully adopted yet.

So I'm wondering, is anyone still designing with dreamweaver tables? Dividing the structure into a few columns/rows and doing whatever with more tables? Or has everyone moved to a scalable CSS type design now?

I'd still like to learn CSS, but I still think tables are easier for me. Thanks

FCC · May 13, 2006, 03:49

I've been juggling between tables and css for awhile. I like tables because it is so much easier to make (I guess through experience), but it gets really messing quickly. CSS makes everything really clean, but I can't quite get the hang of div elements and having them float beside each other. Plus from my experience, I've had so much trouble with relative positioning in CSS. My div elements just go haywire.

As of right now, I'm kind of using a hybrid of tables and CSS.

Bytecon · May 13, 2006, 04:12

I've switched over to CSS fully now, much easier once you get used to it.

Egor · May 13, 2006, 04:20

Strictly no <table>s for layout.

Osprey · May 13, 2006, 04:23

Similar to FCC i am using both CSS and Tables. I don't quite understand divides properly at the moment, i don't see anything wrong with tables, if they work for the design you're making why not?

drhowarddrfine · May 13, 2006, 08:25

What are Dreamweaver tables? Anything like HTML tables?

I'm in my third year of developing pages professionally. I have never used tables for layout and don't understand why anyone would now.

sarcastik · May 13, 2006, 10:04

I use tables for the time being, but I look forward to switching completely over to CSS as soon as it is easier to bypass the absolute positioning mess. I have a widescreen Imac ICD and I think it looks really tacky when I am visiting a website designed in CSS using dreamweaver and the site doesn't adapat to my screen. Instead it will stay shifted off to the left or up to high. Sure, it still works, but in terms of professionalism I can't turn that kinda stuff in to a client.

vgarcia · May 13, 2006, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarcastik

I use tables for the time being, but I look forward to switching completely over to CSS as soon as it is easier to bypass the absolute positioning mess. I have a widescreen Imac ICD and I think it looks really tacky when I am visiting a website designed in CSS using dreamweaver and the site doesn't adapat to my screen. Instead it will stay shifted off to the left or up to high. Sure, it still works, but in terms of professionalism I can't turn that kinda stuff in to a client.

You don't need to use absolute positioning for layout. In fact, with most CSS layouts it's rarely used (floats are the most commonly used method).
If you're going to get serious about CSS layouts, odds are you'll have to stop relying on Dreamweaver's design view

AutisticCuckoo · May 13, 2006, 12:35

Hobbyists and amateurs still use plenty of layout tables, but no one calling themselves professional web designers can get away with it anymore.

spikeZ · May 13, 2006, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo

Hobbyists and amateurs still use plenty of layout tables, but no one calling themselves professional web designers can get away with it anymore.

Agreed, I used to use tables but once got my head round CSS it is a damn site easier than faffing with tables and you can change the entire site layout very easily and quickly.

I would never go back to using tables for anything else other than tabular data.

Learn CSS, even the basics and DONT rely on Dreamweaver for anything.

Spike

isdereks · May 13, 2006, 14:56

To this day, I have yet to grasp the idea of table based layouts. My foray into web "design" started a few months back and the first thing I knew not to do was to toy with table based layouts. I think all the content around the net stating tha table based layouts being bad and my inability to adapt to Dreamweaver (I prefer Notepad++) helped me to bypass the whole table phase.

Is this a bad thing? I do know how to create tables for data though... Isn't that what tables are supposed to be used for anyway?

spikeZ · May 13, 2006, 16:31

No, it's definately not a bad thing. If you know how to create and use tables in the correct place then that can only be a good thing surely!
You have the advantage of just starting out so you can't fall into bad habits with the tables

I envy you!!

Spike

VI5 · May 13, 2006, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by coryl

I'd still like to learn CSS, but I still think tables are easier for me. Thanks

Sorry but who are you making your websites for - Yourself or for users?

Dan Williamson · May 13, 2006, 17:53

I never even used tables much apart from my early Dreamweaver days, I have used CSS and am still learning the advanced uses of it daily. After all tables are supposed to be used for tabular data and not layouts.

coryl · May 13, 2006, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by VI5

Sorry but who are you making your websites for - Yourself or for users?

True, but the user can't tell the difference most of the time.

blain · May 14, 2006, 09:48

they can if they do not use a computer monitor to browse the internet

Melter · May 14, 2006, 11:59

Never really liked using tables so css has been a blessing for me. It's not without its problems (mainly browser issues) but I find it so more flexible, quick to work with, and somehow gets the creative juices flowing more.

Nadia P · May 14, 2006, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by coryl

I'd still like to learn CSS, but I still think tables are easier for me. Thanks

I'm a bit more pragmatic with regards to this issue. If you are more comfortable using tables, then do so until you get the hang of using css for layouts. Start by using css to style your tables and cells and content. Once you get the hang of actually using css and seeing how easy it is to implement and modify as needed, then move onto simple css layouts until you understand the basics. Lots of tutorials out there that can help. If you do happen to use dreamweaver - the css tutorials at the adobe site are terrific for the switch from tables to css layouts.

Good Luck !

Nadia

Tyssen · May 14, 2006, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo

but no one calling themselves professional web designers can get away with it anymore.

You haven't been to Brisbane then.

Nadia P · May 14, 2006, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyssen

You haven't been to Brisbane then.

Add Sydney and Wollongong to the list :-)

Nadia

tygarr · May 15, 2006, 00:06

I am using tables and css. I am still getting used to the 'Look Ma, No tables' thing

AutisticCuckoo · May 15, 2006, 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia P

If you are more comfortable using tables, then do so until you get the hang of using css for layouts.

I'm aware of your stance on this issue.

If you're on old-school 'designer' who is used to using tables for layout, then there may be some truth to what you're saying.

But for someone who is just beginning, I think this line of reasoning is quite bad. Layout tables require a certain mindset: thinking in rigid grids and putting the graphic design before the logical page structure. If you learn to do it this way, you have a lot of unlearning to do if you want to switch to CSS layouts.

If you start with CSS, you stand a much better chance of learning the importance of separating structure from presentation. You won't be locked into a rigid grid-based thinking, but will instead learn to think in 'objects'. Not only is this more conducive to user-centric, accessible design, it will also allow you to make much more interesting and visually appealing designs (provided you have that sort of talent).

Looking through these forums, we see many questions from designers having problems switching from layout tables to CSS. That's not because CSS is particularly difficult in itself, it's because it requires a very different mindset.

You don't create a grid of squares and try to coerce your content into them anymore. You start with a logical document structure and apply styling to that. That means you need to think in a very different way.

Nadia P · May 15, 2006, 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutisticCuckoo

I'm aware of your stance on this issue.

LOL - I bet you do and probably cringe whenever you see me reply to this question ;-) I promise to stay out of it the next time someone asks the same question, how's that? <lol>

Hey, I agree with you btw. If it's someone starting out, then yes getting straight into css layouts is probably the best way forward. I would still insist that they know how to code a basic table layout though

However, it's not an easy matter for someone that's used tables for 'ever' to convert quite so easily. (Yes, I've been there myself), that's why I try and suggest they take baby steps before plunging in and getting too deep, so much so, that they give up and go straight back to tables.

When they realise how easy it is to style tables with css, then they are not so afraid to move to simple css layouts and progress from there.

I've seen this too many times on the DW forum - after a heated debate, the original poster just don't know which way to go - Guide them slowly towards the basic use of CSS and they embrace it much more readily than having: "tables are only for tabular data" zealotry thrown at them.....

Nadia

Idris · May 15, 2006, 07:20

I tend to use a combination of tables and CSS.

For the most part I've always thought that it's best to try and use CSS as much as possible (that's what it's there for) and generally use it for as much of the page layout as I can.

I do find myself falling back on tables when I struggle to be able to create the desired effect with my current knowledge of CSS (the big one for this is a three column layout which I've not really come across a way to do as efficiently in CSS, though I'm sure it is possible).

operator · May 15, 2006, 07:45

Switching to CSS isn't as hard as it seems at first. There are a million tutorials and forums to learn from. After you figure out CSS, you'll never go back to using tables (except for tabular data, of course).

May 13, 2006, 03:22	#1
coryl SitePoint Addict Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: canada Posts: 265	Are tables still cool? Hey guys, I'm starting to see new technology take hold of mainstream websites, making them cleaner, resizable to resolutions, and fast loading. Pretty much things like ajax and CSS which I haven't fully adopted yet. So I'm wondering, is anyone still designing with dreamweaver tables? Dividing the structure into a few columns/rows and doing whatever with more tables? Or has everyone moved to a scalable CSS type design now? I'd still like to learn CSS, but I still think tables are easier for me. Thanks

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May 13, 2006, 03:49	#2
FCC SitePoint Evangelist Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 416	I've been juggling between tables and css for awhile. I like tables because it is so much easier to make (I guess through experience), but it gets really messing quickly. CSS makes everything really clean, but I can't quite get the hang of div elements and having them float beside each other. Plus from my experience, I've had so much trouble with relative positioning in CSS. My div elements just go haywire. As of right now, I'm kind of using a hybrid of tables and CSS.

May 13, 2006, 04:12	#3
Bytecon - Michael - Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ireland Posts: 996	I've switched over to CSS fully now, much easier once you get used to it.

May 13, 2006, 04:20	#4
Egor Non-Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 8,131	Strictly no <table>s for layout.

May 13, 2006, 04:23	#5
Osprey SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 159	Similar to FCC i am using both CSS and Tables. I don't quite understand divides properly at the moment, i don't see anything wrong with tables, if they work for the design you're making why not?

May 13, 2006, 08:25	#6
drhowarddrfine SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,433	What are Dreamweaver tables? Anything like HTML tables? I'm in my third year of developing pages professionally. I have never used tables for layout and don't understand why anyone would now.

May 13, 2006, 10:04	#7
sarcastik SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 28	I use tables for the time being, but I look forward to switching completely over to CSS as soon as it is easier to bypass the absolute positioning mess. I have a widescreen Imac ICD and I think it looks really tacky when I am visiting a website designed in CSS using dreamweaver and the site doesn't adapat to my screen. Instead it will stay shifted off to the left or up to high. Sure, it still works, but in terms of professionalism I can't turn that kinda stuff in to a client.

May 13, 2006, 12:35	#9
AutisticCuckoo SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Åsnorrbodarna Posts: 11,581	Hobbyists and amateurs still use plenty of layout tables, but no one calling themselves professional web designers can get away with it anymore.

May 13, 2006, 14:56	#11
isdereks SitePoint Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6	To this day, I have yet to grasp the idea of table based layouts. My foray into web "design" started a few months back and the first thing I knew not to do was to toy with table based layouts. I think all the content around the net stating tha table based layouts being bad and my inability to adapt to Dreamweaver (I prefer Notepad++) helped me to bypass the whole table phase. Is this a bad thing? I do know how to create tables for data though... Isn't that what tables are supposed to be used for anyway?

May 13, 2006, 16:31	#12
spikeZ dooby dooby doo Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 11,068	No, it's definately not a bad thing. If you know how to create and use tables in the correct place then that can only be a good thing surely! You have the advantage of just starting out so you can't fall into bad habits with the tables I envy you!! Spike

May 13, 2006, 17:53	#14
Dan Williamson SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 154	I never even used tables much apart from my early Dreamweaver days, I have used CSS and am still learning the advanced uses of it daily. After all tables are supposed to be used for tabular data and not layouts.

May 14, 2006, 09:48	#16
blain Pedantic Semantic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Yorkshire, UK Posts: 497	they can if they do not use a computer monitor to browse the internet

May 14, 2006, 11:59	#17
Melter SitePoint Addict Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 306	Never really liked using tables so css has been a blessing for me. It's not without its problems (mainly browser issues) but I find it so more flexible, quick to work with, and somehow gets the creative juices flowing more.

May 15, 2006, 00:06	#21
tygarr SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 25	I am using tables and css. I am still getting used to the 'Look Ma, No tables' thing

May 15, 2006, 07:20	#24
Idris SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 77	I tend to use a combination of tables and CSS. For the most part I've always thought that it's best to try and use CSS as much as possible (that's what it's there for) and generally use it for as much of the page layout as I can. I do find myself falling back on tables when I struggle to be able to create the desired effect with my current knowledge of CSS (the big one for this is a three column layout which I've not really come across a way to do as efficiently in CSS, though I'm sure it is possible).

May 15, 2006, 07:45	#25
operator SitePoint Evangelist Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Bangkok Posts: 529	Switching to CSS isn't as hard as it seems at first. There are a million tutorials and forums to learn from. After you figure out CSS, you'll never go back to using tables (except for tabular data, of course).