Comments on: Microsoft & IE8: Let’s Move On and Make It Great http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/ Mon, 08 Sep 2008 03:59:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Gilzow http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-653947 Gilzow Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:43:48 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-653947 <blockquote>like most developers I know I develop html and css using IE then hack/workaround for firefox.</blockquote> @neildonald - Funny, I dont know a single web developer that develops in IE first and then in the other browser. Everyone I know writes their standards-compliant code and tests in FF first. Then has to go back and break their code (or litter it with conditional IE comments) to get the IE family to get the code to display correctly. I've also been coding since the v4 and 5 days, and dont ever remember having to hack a browser <em>except</em> IE to get my pages to display correctly.

like most developers I know I develop html and css using IE then hack/workaround for firefox.

@neildonald - Funny, I dont know a single web developer that develops in IE first and then in the other browser. Everyone I know writes their standards-compliant code and tests in FF first. Then has to go back and break their code (or litter it with conditional IE comments) to get the IE family to get the code to display correctly. I’ve also been coding since the v4 and 5 days, and dont ever remember having to hack a browser except IE to get my pages to display correctly.

]]> By: wwb_99 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-653681 wwb_99 Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:47:25 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-653681 @Jonathan: you have a good point about OOXML. But that can be read a few ways, one of which is that the whole debacle made Microsoft realize that you can either have open standards or not have open standards. Trying to play the middle and be kinda sorta open just don't cut the mustard. @Jonathan: you have a good point about OOXML. But that can be read a few ways, one of which is that the whole debacle made Microsoft realize that you can either have open standards or not have open standards. Trying to play the middle and be kinda sorta open just don’t cut the mustard.

]]> By: Tyssen http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-653563 Tyssen Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:45:39 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-653563 <blockquote>like most developers I know I develop html and css using IE then hack/workaround for firefox.</blockquote> You keep some odd company then because that's completely backwards. :/

like most developers I know I develop html and css using IE then hack/workaround for firefox.

You keep some odd company then because that’s completely backwards. :/

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-652435 Jonathan Tue, 11 Mar 2008 08:17:09 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-652435 @ neildonald: Most developers I know develop in Firefox first (using superb plugins like the Web Developer toolbar and Firebug). If it works in FF it will probably work in Safari and Opera too. Finally we do fixes for IE. BTW, there's a reason microsoft=bad; the_rest=good; I've spent hours debugging CSS that other browsers handled that IE choked on. And the debugging in IE is atrocious. @Wyatt. Nice try but Microsoft's shenanigans with OOXML make be doubtful that the leopards has changed its spots. I won't give MS the benefit of the doubt. If they want to play nice with open standards then good on them; but I'll wait to see their whether their actions match their words. @ neildonald: Most developers I know develop in Firefox first (using superb plugins like the Web Developer toolbar and Firebug). If it works in FF it will probably work in Safari and Opera too. Finally we do fixes for IE. BTW, there’s a reason microsoft=bad; the_rest=good; I’ve spent hours debugging CSS that other browsers handled that IE choked on. And the debugging in IE is atrocious.

@Wyatt. Nice try but Microsoft’s shenanigans with OOXML make be doubtful that the leopards has changed its spots. I won’t give MS the benefit of the doubt. If they want to play nice with open standards then good on them; but I’ll wait to see their whether their actions match their words.

]]> By: wwb_99 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-652249 wwb_99 Tue, 11 Mar 2008 03:03:39 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-652249 @Jubarr (and his followers): why does Microsoft care about that? They give away IE for free, so people using Firefox does not hurt the bottom line at all. @neildonald: Very good point. I started my web coding in the waning days of the version 4 and 5 browsers, and I remember the pain. If you stayed off the bleeding edge and did not push the CSS-P envelope too hard, you could get by OK with an occasional bit of presentational markup without hacking pages at all. I've honestly never served a page with a browser-specific hack or conditional stylesheet in my life. Otoh, I've been coding boring Line of Business stuff more than exciting, pretty public web apps in recent memory. @Jubarr (and his followers): why does Microsoft care about that? They give away IE for free, so people using Firefox does not hurt the bottom line at all.

@neildonald: Very good point. I started my web coding in the waning days of the version 4 and 5 browsers, and I remember the pain. If you stayed off the bleeding edge and did not push the CSS-P envelope too hard, you could get by OK with an occasional bit of presentational markup without hacking pages at all. I’ve honestly never served a page with a browser-specific hack or conditional stylesheet in my life. Otoh, I’ve been coding boring Line of Business stuff more than exciting, pretty public web apps in recent memory.

]]> By: neildonald http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-652087 neildonald Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:59:58 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-652087 i'm a little fed up with the microsoft=bad; the_rest=good approach. Internet Explorer 7's rendering of markup is the defacto standard which all web based applications must meet to been seen to work by a) coders b) users and most importantly c) who's paying for the development. OK so Microsoft isn't the most innovative browser developer but it shouldn't get slated forever for the marquee tag! (remember netscape 4's BLINK?) Having hand coded HTML for 8 or 9 years, i can honestly say it's now easier than ever to write markup which is viewable with IE, FF, Opera, safari, konqueror etc, as well as being search engine friendly and viewable on mobile phones. like most developers I know I develop html and css using IE then hack/workaround for firefox. Sticking in the odd empty "clear: both" DIV to preserve formatting between browsers is hardly troublesome compared to the complete rewrites required for the gen 4 & 5 browsers. i’m a little fed up with the microsoft=bad; the_rest=good approach. Internet Explorer 7’s rendering of markup is the defacto standard which all web based applications must meet to been seen to work by a) coders b) users and most importantly c) who’s paying for the development. OK so Microsoft isn’t the most innovative browser developer but it shouldn’t get slated forever for the marquee tag! (remember netscape 4’s BLINK?) Having hand coded HTML for 8 or 9 years, i can honestly say it’s now easier than ever to write markup which is viewable with IE, FF, Opera, safari, konqueror etc, as well as being search engine friendly and viewable on mobile phones. like most developers I know I develop html and css using IE then hack/workaround for firefox. Sticking in the odd empty “clear: both” DIV to preserve formatting between browsers is hardly troublesome compared to the complete rewrites required for the gen 4 & 5 browsers.

]]> By: Wolf_22 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651794 Wolf_22 Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:46:11 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651794 Me too... ^ ^ ^ Me too… ^ ^ ^

]]> By: chris ward http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651562 chris ward Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:18:01 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651562 totally agree with jubarr totally agree with jubarr

]]> By: Jubarr http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651405 Jubarr Mon, 10 Mar 2008 06:27:41 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651405 They are doing this because they want us web developers/designers to stop telling all our family, friends, girlfriend and clients to switch to firefox... They are doing this because they want us web developers/designers to stop telling all our family, friends, girlfriend and clients to switch to firefox…

]]> By: wwb_99 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651227 wwb_99 Sun, 09 Mar 2008 23:22:46 +0000 http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2008/03/10/microsoft-ie8-lets-move-on-and-make-it-great/#comment-651227 @m0n5t3r: that is actually an awesome idea. If I can find an appropriate party, I'll definitely pass that along. Not sure how well it will fly, but it does make boatloads of sense. @Chuck: I can't argue that you are not historically correct. But past performance is not necessarily a predictor of future performance. There are a lot of signs of change in the air--I don't think MS thinks it could even approach the dominance of the early '00s and definitely got the lesson about what not to do from that period. @Wolf_22: No worries man. We cool. @m0n5t3r: that is actually an awesome idea. If I can find an appropriate party, I’ll definitely pass that along. Not sure how well it will fly, but it does make boatloads of sense.

@Chuck: I can’t argue that you are not historically correct. But past performance is not necessarily a predictor of future performance. There are a lot of signs of change in the air–I don’t think MS thinks it could even approach the dominance of the early ’00s and definitely got the lesson about what not to do from that period.

@Wolf_22: No worries man. We cool.

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