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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t make users take responsibility for our problems</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/</link>
	<description>News, opinion, and fresh thinking for web developers and designers. The official podcast of sitepoint.com.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: lydia.dugger@studio105.com</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-533202</link>
		<dc:creator>lydia.dugger@studio105.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 02:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-533202</guid>
		<description>Spam wasn't a problem with the cold fusion websites I coded until the past year. I first tried the session method with little success - in fact it didn't seem to filter out anything. Like steve_friend_of_brothercake, what has worked has been the "honey pot" method and content analysis. 

For the "honey pot" method, I use a hidden css div layer to hide 4 fields (IamSpam, MyEmail, MyComments, and a random character field like w3Rtp) that are then checked upon submit. To answer the question of accessibility in the "honey pot" method, the hidden div is placed BELOW the submit button and is preceeded by the statement "Anti-Spam fields hidden with CSS: Please DO NOT change the information in these fields." The text is in the hidden div as well so only users with stylesheets turned off or a screenreader will come across them.

The code that I wrote to analyze the content of the form fields looks for the same data in more than one field (bots commonly enter the same data more than once!) AND it looks for any type of url (http://, a href, etc.). The key to the content analysis is making sure that the options available to the user through the form do not give them a chance to submit duplicate data or urls. If so, then those fields must be left out of the check.

So far it has been 100% effective and I now have it in include files so I can easily implement it in a new site. I've been meaning to create a cfc using the same code but just haven't done it yet!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spam wasn&#8217;t a problem with the cold fusion websites I coded until the past year. I first tried the session method with little success - in fact it didn&#8217;t seem to filter out anything. Like steve_friend_of_brothercake, what has worked has been the &#8220;honey pot&#8221; method and content analysis. </p>
<p>For the &#8220;honey pot&#8221; method, I use a hidden css div layer to hide 4 fields (IamSpam, MyEmail, MyComments, and a random character field like w3Rtp) that are then checked upon submit. To answer the question of accessibility in the &#8220;honey pot&#8221; method, the hidden div is placed BELOW the submit button and is preceeded by the statement &#8220;Anti-Spam fields hidden with CSS: Please DO NOT change the information in these fields.&#8221; The text is in the hidden div as well so only users with stylesheets turned off or a screenreader will come across them.</p>
<p>The code that I wrote to analyze the content of the form fields looks for the same data in more than one field (bots commonly enter the same data more than once!) AND it looks for any type of url (http://, a href, etc.). The key to the content analysis is making sure that the options available to the user through the form do not give them a chance to submit duplicate data or urls. If so, then those fields must be left out of the check.</p>
<p>So far it has been 100% effective and I now have it in include files so I can easily implement it in a new site. I&#8217;ve been meaning to create a cfc using the same code but just haven&#8217;t done it yet!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: steve_friend_of_brothercake</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-415926</link>
		<dc:creator>steve_friend_of_brothercake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-415926</guid>
		<description>CAPTHAS - as defined by the acronym, are GOOD.
What is thrown up by sites with the stupid graphics are bad, and often inaccessible.

I use a combination of session control and "toggle" fields as described above with 100% success.

I also use some POST content analysis (Scan for urls and rejected words) to reject some of the HUMAN bots which seem to be coming out of CHIANDONG Province and some Malyasia. I believe it is some kind of agent software which is able to RECOGNIZE that captha is in place, and prompts a human so that THEY can enter the value and allow the post</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CAPTHAS - as defined by the acronym, are GOOD.<br />
What is thrown up by sites with the stupid graphics are bad, and often inaccessible.</p>
<p>I use a combination of session control and &#8220;toggle&#8221; fields as described above with 100% success.</p>
<p>I also use some POST content analysis (Scan for urls and rejected words) to reject some of the HUMAN bots which seem to be coming out of CHIANDONG Province and some Malyasia. I believe it is some kind of agent software which is able to RECOGNIZE that captha is in place, and prompts a human so that THEY can enter the value and allow the post</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: aj510</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-404122</link>
		<dc:creator>aj510</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-404122</guid>
		<description>It's all good and well to say capthca is bad because of this and that. But have you seen what bots do to a forum/blog/toplist/etc that is left with no captcha or any form of protection against bots?

100's of thousands of posts can be generated on sites in a matter of months. It  is ridiculous to think requesting users to enter a small code is any great task. After all this is also for their benefit too.

I use captcha and also the hard coded questions on my sites and find that the combination stops spam bots dead. If you can come up with a better solution, then by all means let us all know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s all good and well to say capthca is bad because of this and that. But have you seen what bots do to a forum/blog/toplist/etc that is left with no captcha or any form of protection against bots?</p>
<p>100&#8217;s of thousands of posts can be generated on sites in a matter of months. It  is ridiculous to think requesting users to enter a small code is any great task. After all this is also for their benefit too.</p>
<p>I use captcha and also the hard coded questions on my sites and find that the combination stops spam bots dead. If you can come up with a better solution, then by all means let us all know.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: pixelsurge</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-396855</link>
		<dc:creator>pixelsurge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-396855</guid>
		<description>James, I completely agree. Standing ovation for you.

I'm personally getting by with the hidden field using CSS trick right now. The label on the field says "Leave this field blank" so even people who do see it should leave it blank. And their submission doesn't get discarded if they do fill something in -- it just throws an error, so they can still go back and fix it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, I completely agree. Standing ovation for you.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m personally getting by with the hidden field using CSS trick right now. The label on the field says &#8220;Leave this field blank&#8221; so even people who do see it should leave it blank. And their submission doesn&#8217;t get discarded if they do fill something in &#8212; it just throws an error, so they can still go back and fix it.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: brothercake</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-378879</link>
		<dc:creator>brothercake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-378879</guid>
		<description>Yeah Eric Meyer's gatekeeper is the best alternative I've seen - it's still not perfect because it places a cognitive load on the user (even though a tiny one) and because it is eminently breakable by brute force, hence to make it work you'd really need a unique set of frequently-changing question for each site.

The "honey pot" idea is also a nice one - having a field hidden with CSS that only bots will fill-in; there's still an accessibility problem there for non-standard devices that will see it. But I think it's still better than CAPTCHA.

btw - turning off comments entirely is not an accessibility issue, because it's the same for everyone. But comments aren't really important anyway - it's mission critical uses like signing-up for an account in the first place, or verifying financial transactions, that I object to (and also, ironically, those are where it's most necessary to have bot protection, but there you go!)

Bots are "our problem" because it's up to us to find a way - we're part of the same production chain, in a sense, whereas users are consumers. We benefit from users on our site more than users benefit from being on it, hence the prerogative is ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah Eric Meyer&#8217;s gatekeeper is the best alternative I&#8217;ve seen - it&#8217;s still not perfect because it places a cognitive load on the user (even though a tiny one) and because it is eminently breakable by brute force, hence to make it work you&#8217;d really need a unique set of frequently-changing question for each site.</p>
<p>The &#8220;honey pot&#8221; idea is also a nice one - having a field hidden with CSS that only bots will fill-in; there&#8217;s still an accessibility problem there for non-standard devices that will see it. But I think it&#8217;s still better than CAPTCHA.</p>
<p>btw - turning off comments entirely is not an accessibility issue, because it&#8217;s the same for everyone. But comments aren&#8217;t really important anyway - it&#8217;s mission critical uses like signing-up for an account in the first place, or verifying financial transactions, that I object to (and also, ironically, those are where it&#8217;s most necessary to have bot protection, but there you go!)</p>
<p>Bots are &#8220;our problem&#8221; because it&#8217;s up to us to find a way - we&#8217;re part of the same production chain, in a sense, whereas users are consumers. We benefit from users on our site more than users benefit from being on it, hence the prerogative is ours.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: joaquin_win</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-377831</link>
		<dc:creator>joaquin_win</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 02:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-377831</guid>
		<description>Email confirmation is necessary to confirm that it was you who signed you up to a service (a newsletter).

As for CAPTCHA, I do not use them, I prefer to use something like akismet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Email confirmation is necessary to confirm that it was you who signed you up to a service (a newsletter).</p>
<p>As for CAPTCHA, I do not use them, I prefer to use something like akismet.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt Mickiewicz</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376269</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Mickiewicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376269</guid>
		<description>How about SAPTCHA (Semi Automatic Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart) instead of CAPTCHA?

For example, there's WS-Gatekeeper for Wordpress blogs: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/tools/wordpress/wp-gatekeeper/

or NoSpam! for vBulletin:
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=124828

A couple other alternatives are outlined at:
http://www.arraystudio.com/as-workshop/the-captcha-alternatives.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about SAPTCHA (Semi Automatic Public Turing Test to Tell Computers and Humans Apart) instead of CAPTCHA?</p>
<p>For example, there&#8217;s WS-Gatekeeper for Wordpress blogs: <a href="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/tools/wordpress/wp-gatekeeper/" rel="nofollow">http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/tools/wordpress/wp-gatekeeper/</a></p>
<p>or NoSpam! for vBulletin:<br />
<a href="http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=124828" rel="nofollow">http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=124828</a></p>
<p>A couple other alternatives are outlined at:<br />
<a href="http://www.arraystudio.com/as-workshop/the-captcha-alternatives.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.arraystudio.com/as-workshop/the-captcha-alternatives.html</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: jboehman</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376255</link>
		<dc:creator>jboehman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376255</guid>
		<description>Try Akismet as a CAPTCHA alternative:

http://akismet.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try Akismet as a CAPTCHA alternative:</p>
<p><a href="http://akismet.com/" rel="nofollow">http://akismet.com/</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: devberlin</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376144</link>
		<dc:creator>devberlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376144</guid>
		<description>Spam is worse than captchas but both of them are very annoying. There are some helpful solutions to decrease spam. You won't get rid of all spam anyway and captchas are not bulletproof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spam is worse than captchas but both of them are very annoying. There are some helpful solutions to decrease spam. You won&#8217;t get rid of all spam anyway and captchas are not bulletproof.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: WarpNacelle</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376073</link>
		<dc:creator>WarpNacelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/09/10/dont-make-users-take-responsibility-for-our-problems/#comment-376073</guid>
		<description>I didn't create SPAM bots and use CAPTCHA to counter them. How's that my problem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t create SPAM bots and use CAPTCHA to counter them. How&#8217;s that my problem?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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