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	<title>Comments on: FullCodePress: Pre-built vs Custom?</title>
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	<description>News, opinion, and fresh thinking for web developers and designers. The official podcast of sitepoint.com.</description>
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		<title>By: MrQuestion</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-804814</link>
		<dc:creator>MrQuestion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-804814</guid>
		<description>Maybe im a little late with the question, im trying to use Joomla! at the moment but its full of errors. ( Mayb its my own fault )
I never used any CMS before and wanted to try it, ive got a lil knowledge of php but html etc is no problem for me, its hard for me to install Joomla! without problems and let it work on my own templates what is still not working for me..

Now my question is if its better to learn HOW to build a custom CMS so you will also understand how to modify templates etc on prebuild CMSs ?
Im really stuck with this and hope someone can tell me whats the best to learn first because I want to know both.

Thanks in advance,
Louis</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe im a little late with the question, im trying to use Joomla! at the moment but its full of errors. ( Mayb its my own fault )<br />
I never used any CMS before and wanted to try it, ive got a lil knowledge of php but html etc is no problem for me, its hard for me to install Joomla! without problems and let it work on my own templates what is still not working for me..</p>
<p>Now my question is if its better to learn HOW to build a custom CMS so you will also understand how to modify templates etc on prebuild CMSs ?<br />
Im really stuck with this and hope someone can tell me whats the best to learn first because I want to know both.</p>
<p>Thanks in advance,<br />
Louis</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-359245</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-359245</guid>
		<description>We use Drupal extensively, having abandoned our in-house CMS development because it made no financial sense committing 100&#039;s of development hours into a product limited to only our clients. I prefer an out-of-box solution like Drupal over custom because that way the client is not locked in to us. I suspect most custom developers leave their clients high-and-dry after the initial site is delivered. With Drupal we have migrated sites from 4.6 -&gt; 4.7 -&gt; 5.x and soon 6.x. There is an active worldwide community providing continuity and evolution of the platform. Once you understand the Drupal API it&#039;s quite straightforward to deliver powerful and flexible solutions faster than custom code; why repeat developing DB layers, authentication, user profiles, content handling, url aliases, ecommerce etc. when all of those are available out-of-the-box?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We use Drupal extensively, having abandoned our in-house CMS development because it made no financial sense committing 100&#8217;s of development hours into a product limited to only our clients. I prefer an out-of-box solution like Drupal over custom because that way the client is not locked in to us. I suspect most custom developers leave their clients high-and-dry after the initial site is delivered. With Drupal we have migrated sites from 4.6 -&gt; 4.7 -&gt; 5.x and soon 6.x. There is an active worldwide community providing continuity and evolution of the platform. Once you understand the Drupal API it&#8217;s quite straightforward to deliver powerful and flexible solutions faster than custom code; why repeat developing DB layers, authentication, user profiles, content handling, url aliases, ecommerce etc. when all of those are available out-of-the-box?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: death</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-353680</link>
		<dc:creator>death</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 21:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-353680</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;ve ever made a CMS for a client from scratch, when a new client comes along, you take your previous cms (which has been improved bit by bit across a half dozen previous clients) and you &quot;custom&quot; hack it for the new client to give them just what they need and nothing else. Estimated Time: 8-14 hours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;ve ever made a CMS for a client from scratch, when a new client comes along, you take your previous cms (which has been improved bit by bit across a half dozen previous clients) and you &#8220;custom&#8221; hack it for the new client to give them just what they need and nothing else. Estimated Time: 8-14 hours.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: franzdavid</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-352803</link>
		<dc:creator>franzdavid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-352803</guid>
		<description>I am sitting on the fence with this one. I can see the value in building a custom solution and I have done this for my own and clients projects. But I do spend a lot of time doing work that has already been done before. 
Which is where a system like Drupal comes into play. What is the point in reinventing the wheel? The great thing about Drupal, and other modular systems, is that you just plug in the module you need. So the base system is not super heavy (although it is heavier then a custom job).

Are custom systems better? Yes they are, if done right. But does the client have the money and time for a custom job? Not always. 

A lot of it comes down to communication. The client may want a site that does ABC in a certain way. Thats fine, and you can make a site that does exactly what they want. But if you explain to the client that you can do ABC in a slightly different way for a fraction of the cost by using a system like Drupal, then they will appreciate your honesty.  And that could win you the job over a more expensive developer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sitting on the fence with this one. I can see the value in building a custom solution and I have done this for my own and clients projects. But I do spend a lot of time doing work that has already been done before.<br />
Which is where a system like Drupal comes into play. What is the point in reinventing the wheel? The great thing about Drupal, and other modular systems, is that you just plug in the module you need. So the base system is not super heavy (although it is heavier then a custom job).</p>
<p>Are custom systems better? Yes they are, if done right. But does the client have the money and time for a custom job? Not always. </p>
<p>A lot of it comes down to communication. The client may want a site that does ABC in a certain way. Thats fine, and you can make a site that does exactly what they want. But if you explain to the client that you can do ABC in a slightly different way for a fraction of the cost by using a system like Drupal, then they will appreciate your honesty.  And that could win you the job over a more expensive developer.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: jruyle</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-352504</link>
		<dc:creator>jruyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2007 04:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-352504</guid>
		<description>Having learned my coding from using CMS, I can understand using a custom system.  Although the early development stage is intense, the final custom changes are much easier.

I do have to admit, I&#039;m surprised no one has even mentioned Joomla!  Very easy to use, easy to customize, easy to omit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having learned my coding from using CMS, I can understand using a custom system.  Although the early development stage is intense, the final custom changes are much easier.</p>
<p>I do have to admit, I&#8217;m surprised no one has even mentioned Joomla!  Very easy to use, easy to customize, easy to omit.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: ibroom</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-351950</link>
		<dc:creator>ibroom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2007 18:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-351950</guid>
		<description>Hi,
I am a web developer and I primarily use Joomla.  There are numerous reasons I do this and here are some of them.

1. Small and medium sized businesses want solutions which are very flexible and they want it NOW!  So I give them what they want with a system which can expand as they expand.
2. I don&#039;t like locking my clients in.  I tell them this, and I think they appreciate it.  There are LOTS of developers who have worked with Joomla and if a client hates me at least their web site can continue to be developed by someone else.
3. I don&#039;t load, stress or even put that much effort into compatibility testing (other than templates) as I know and benefit from over 100,000 web sites already using the system.  This is very important, see point 1 as to why.
4. If I need an e-commerce system or a forum or a wiki, etc.  I can quote a sensible amount of my time to implementing the appropriate plug-in for Joomla.  Most of the time there is already one available which meets or surpasses my clients requirements.  I usually offer clients systems which they can grow in to rather than be dependent on me.

I used to build custom solutions but I stopped because the cost was too high, the quality too low, and ultimately I can offer my clients better quality and value for money by using a CMS which has the base functionality covered.

On a final note, coding an authentication system was fun the first time and irritating the second time, and terrible the third.  I am not a robot, I like job diversity, therefore I will leverage other people&#039;s excellent systems and spend my expertise doing the tricky things my clients can&#039;t rather than charging them for the boring things I hate.

Am I right or wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
I am a web developer and I primarily use Joomla.  There are numerous reasons I do this and here are some of them.</p>
<p>1. Small and medium sized businesses want solutions which are very flexible and they want it NOW!  So I give them what they want with a system which can expand as they expand.<br />
2. I don&#8217;t like locking my clients in.  I tell them this, and I think they appreciate it.  There are LOTS of developers who have worked with Joomla and if a client hates me at least their web site can continue to be developed by someone else.<br />
3. I don&#8217;t load, stress or even put that much effort into compatibility testing (other than templates) as I know and benefit from over 100,000 web sites already using the system.  This is very important, see point 1 as to why.<br />
4. If I need an e-commerce system or a forum or a wiki, etc.  I can quote a sensible amount of my time to implementing the appropriate plug-in for Joomla.  Most of the time there is already one available which meets or surpasses my clients requirements.  I usually offer clients systems which they can grow in to rather than be dependent on me.</p>
<p>I used to build custom solutions but I stopped because the cost was too high, the quality too low, and ultimately I can offer my clients better quality and value for money by using a CMS which has the base functionality covered.</p>
<p>On a final note, coding an authentication system was fun the first time and irritating the second time, and terrible the third.  I am not a robot, I like job diversity, therefore I will leverage other people&#8217;s excellent systems and spend my expertise doing the tricky things my clients can&#8217;t rather than charging them for the boring things I hate.</p>
<p>Am I right or wrong?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: James Robertson</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-351159</link>
		<dc:creator>James Robertson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2007 05:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-351159</guid>
		<description>To me, this highlights that if you are going to use a CMS, make sure it&#039;s the &lt;strong&gt;right&lt;/strong&gt; CMS. There are two very different groups that have very different needs:

&lt;strong&gt;Content authors&lt;/strong&gt; need extremely simple, non-technical interfaces for maintaining content, publishing new pages, etc. They want point-and-click interfaces for everything, and should not need to know any HTML for typical content work.

&lt;strong&gt;Site developers&lt;/strong&gt; need to be able to work efficiently with the CMS, setting up overall information architecture, page layouts, page designs, etc. They need the CMS to make life easier, and get out of the way.

These may be conflicting goals. Certainly in the marketplace there are plenty of good developer-focused CMS products that have poor end-user interfaces; there are just as many easy-to-use CMSs that make life a misery for site developers.

At the end of the day, though, there&#039;s a lot that goes into developing a viable CMS product. I estimated a few weeks ago that it costs &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.steptwo.com.au/columntwo/archives/002558.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;$5mil to develop a commercial CMS&lt;/a&gt; (or the equivalent time donated to an open source effort).

As Rex indicated, that&#039;s work relating to versioning, permissions, modules, etc. And does the world really need yet another half-baked CMS? :-)

So I would always tend to lean towards an out-of-the-box solution. Is Drupal a great CMS? Not really. How well do many of the open source CMS products stack up? Pretty averagely. What about the commercial CMS products? They&#039;re OK, but not guaranteed to be great.

I definitely think there is a market opportunity for a CMS (open source or otherwise) that is simple, and just &quot;works&quot; for straightforward sites like the ones in this competition. CMSs that don&#039;t need to be wrestled or fought with just to get a simple site up.

Anyway, just my $0.02,
James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, this highlights that if you are going to use a CMS, make sure it&#8217;s the <strong>right</strong> CMS. There are two very different groups that have very different needs:</p>
<p><strong>Content authors</strong> need extremely simple, non-technical interfaces for maintaining content, publishing new pages, etc. They want point-and-click interfaces for everything, and should not need to know any HTML for typical content work.</p>
<p><strong>Site developers</strong> need to be able to work efficiently with the CMS, setting up overall information architecture, page layouts, page designs, etc. They need the CMS to make life easier, and get out of the way.</p>
<p>These may be conflicting goals. Certainly in the marketplace there are plenty of good developer-focused CMS products that have poor end-user interfaces; there are just as many easy-to-use CMSs that make life a misery for site developers.</p>
<p>At the end of the day, though, there&#8217;s a lot that goes into developing a viable CMS product. I estimated a few weeks ago that it costs <a href="http://www.steptwo.com.au/columntwo/archives/002558.html" rel="nofollow">$5mil to develop a commercial CMS</a> (or the equivalent time donated to an open source effort).</p>
<p>As Rex indicated, that&#8217;s work relating to versioning, permissions, modules, etc. And does the world really need yet another half-baked CMS? :-)</p>
<p>So I would always tend to lean towards an out-of-the-box solution. Is Drupal a great CMS? Not really. How well do many of the open source CMS products stack up? Pretty averagely. What about the commercial CMS products? They&#8217;re OK, but not guaranteed to be great.</p>
<p>I definitely think there is a market opportunity for a CMS (open source or otherwise) that is simple, and just &#8220;works&#8221; for straightforward sites like the ones in this competition. CMSs that don&#8217;t need to be wrestled or fought with just to get a simple site up.</p>
<p>Anyway, just my $0.02,<br />
James</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Rex Chung</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-350112</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex Chung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-350112</guid>
		<description>I was part of the Aussie fullcodepress team that day. On hindsight, I am happy that we went with drupal. I&#039;m sure there&#039;s other CMS out there, but Drupal is one which a few of us had a small amount of experience on. Having said that, none of us had customised drupal before on a commercial level. I learnt a great deal about drupal in 24hrs and the next site would be definitely alot easier. 

Prebuilt CMS like drupal has alot of benefits over building one from scratch in 24hrs. Some of the advantages I can think of are:

- revisions - ability to save different versions
- permission system - drupal can create user types easily and customise the permission level for each modules. We had 3 levels of volunteer, content_writer and super administrator. And all the menus can be customised, so its actually simple and easy to use as most users will only see the limited number of links.
- modules repository - we can easily add ready made modules for different kind of requirements. e.g. volunteers will see a calendar of events where they can opt in. 
- because drupal is quite popular, it is easily for the client to find support and developers if we cannot provide support in the future.
- drupal is a mature software, it is less likely to have bugs and security issues. I don&#039;t think it would be possible to build a robust solution in 24hrs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was part of the Aussie fullcodepress team that day. On hindsight, I am happy that we went with drupal. I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s other CMS out there, but Drupal is one which a few of us had a small amount of experience on. Having said that, none of us had customised drupal before on a commercial level. I learnt a great deal about drupal in 24hrs and the next site would be definitely alot easier. </p>
<p>Prebuilt CMS like drupal has alot of benefits over building one from scratch in 24hrs. Some of the advantages I can think of are:</p>
<p>- revisions &#8211; ability to save different versions<br />
- permission system &#8211; drupal can create user types easily and customise the permission level for each modules. We had 3 levels of volunteer, content_writer and super administrator. And all the menus can be customised, so its actually simple and easy to use as most users will only see the limited number of links.<br />
- modules repository &#8211; we can easily add ready made modules for different kind of requirements. e.g. volunteers will see a calendar of events where they can opt in.<br />
- because drupal is quite popular, it is easily for the client to find support and developers if we cannot provide support in the future.<br />
- drupal is a mature software, it is less likely to have bugs and security issues. I don&#8217;t think it would be possible to build a robust solution in 24hrs.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: wwb_99</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-345979</link>
		<dc:creator>wwb_99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 16:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-345979</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Custom coded sites are always alpha releases. The haven’t been load tested and run through the ringer to display all the weird and annoying ways that the code goes screwy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not really, at least if you have proper testing procedures and resources in place. Nothing we do custom hits the street without some vicious load testing.

&lt;blockquote&gt;A corollary to that is the fact that active projects have a lot of people watching out for various exploits and patching them quickly. I’d much rather follow a Drupal forum and find out that I need an upgrade than find out with a cracked database or defaced pages. Build enough sites and you too will know the joy of malicious hackers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Cracking custom apps is probably harder than cracking the large, popular open source apps for a few reasons. One is that, unless you (or your client) happens to be a target, there is very little payoff with cracking a one-off custom application. Whereas finding a zero-day exploit for WordPress or Joomla will let you deface thousands of sites and/or compromise thousands of servers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Custom coded sites are always alpha releases. The haven’t been load tested and run through the ringer to display all the weird and annoying ways that the code goes screwy.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not really, at least if you have proper testing procedures and resources in place. Nothing we do custom hits the street without some vicious load testing.</p>
<blockquote><p>A corollary to that is the fact that active projects have a lot of people watching out for various exploits and patching them quickly. I’d much rather follow a Drupal forum and find out that I need an upgrade than find out with a cracked database or defaced pages. Build enough sites and you too will know the joy of malicious hackers.</p></blockquote>
<p>Cracking custom apps is probably harder than cracking the large, popular open source apps for a few reasons. One is that, unless you (or your client) happens to be a target, there is very little payoff with cracking a one-off custom application. Whereas finding a zero-day exploit for WordPress or Joomla will let you deface thousands of sites and/or compromise thousands of servers.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Wolf_22</title>
		<link>http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/comment-page-1/#comment-345732</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolf_22</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:11:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/08/21/full-code-press-pre-built-vs-custom/#comment-345732</guid>
		<description>Each situation varies. My experiences have told me that custom / from-the-ground-up is where EVERYONE should start from, but that is based on clientele or jobs that have little to worry about with deadlines. If you have a team of people who are less than professional making a CMS, out-of-the-box or open source solutions remain most feasible unfortunately. The reason for &quot;unfortunate&quot; is due to the simple fact that these would probably be the sites that will be harrassed / hacked the most, as well as have little originality.

Regardless, each situation has different demands...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Each situation varies. My experiences have told me that custom / from-the-ground-up is where EVERYONE should start from, but that is based on clientele or jobs that have little to worry about with deadlines. If you have a team of people who are less than professional making a CMS, out-of-the-box or open source solutions remain most feasible unfortunately. The reason for &#8220;unfortunate&#8221; is due to the simple fact that these would probably be the sites that will be harrassed / hacked the most, as well as have little originality.</p>
<p>Regardless, each situation has different demands&#8230;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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