If you want to stand by your analogy, tell me how to make a good coffee without mentioning ground beans, water, and steamed milk.

Well, this is like a year after the fact, but I saw something that caught my eye and thought I’d toss my two cents in: Jaffa’s point is valid, but only to a degree. Working off the analogy posted before, Jaffa responded with a statement which included the quote above. Flip that around and you see the two sides of this debate. Try this: Tell me how to make a good coffee without mentioning coffee.

For me, the simple use of a buzzword doesn’t immediately mean you’re an idiot. Not knowing the definition of the buzzword means you’re an idiot. Programmers are inherently lazy, at least the good ones I think. A programmer knows how and when to re-use code and why, where the best shortcuts are and how to use them. AJAX as a term is a shortcut describing combined technologies. Referring to those technologies through the use of the shortcut is done for ease. Using the term without knowing what it is or how to use it is dumb. Everything gains a name. It’s easier than saying loops, functions and processes using the hypertext preprocessor (or whatever technology you’re working with at the time).

Just my two cents. Nicely written article, too.

Through best practices of a pure “Ajax service” I have
developed a manner for implementing history style behavior in Ajax
applications. It involves a new HTML Microformat and doesn’t require
polling, two features I thought were particularly appealing. If
you’re interested in a method for handling the infamous back/forward
buttons in Ajax applications the full article can be read here.

http://positionabsolute.net/blog/2007/07/javascript-history-service.php

Cheers,
Matt

See what you made me do? You made me join you and now I’m bitchin’ about the bitchers!

I hate humans!

Has anyone noticed that using the rshf in IE you see a loading bar in the status bar when navigating the o’reilly mail example (
http://shrinkster.com/i51 ). This seems to go against the ajax concept of not seeing any page refresh/loading?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks
Kieran
http://www.perryworld.com

That explains how to tackle the back button woes … how about bookmarking ? Does Amass take care of that ?

Brad

Best,
Brad

Best,
Brad Neuberg

I can see why my initial rant was misunderstood, because it was a rant and therefore more of a release for me than anything else :) sorry about that.

AJAX is a cowboy term, and is quickly being associated with the misuse of the technologies it represents. See for yourself, do a search for DHTML scripts on google, add a year and AJAX will be the same.

The cowboys read ‘AJAX’ in a forum and add it to their CVs because it’s the new buzzword. However, in this instance it’s a buzzword you can do without. By all means refer to AJAX in CVs and such, because you may have a cowboy interviewer. But you’ll do a lot better saying something like “Javascript & XML (sometimes refered to as AJAX)”, both situations are covered.

If indeed that was your original intention behind the post, then I hope you can see how it was completely lost “in translation”.

This industry seems to suffer more from the “cowboys” than any other and I have to agree with your point. I went for a job interview once and the IT manager asked me a bunch of networking questions. I held my hands up and said I don’t know much of anything about networking, I can’t answer your questions. From my perspective it was a disastorous interview but I got the job. Later I found out it was because I was the only one that answered honestly.

Which are more effective for a developer wanting to learn / use these technologies, or groupings of technologies?

(Refering to JavaScript and XML vs AJAX)

I’m not sure if you’re arguing for or against me there… I’ll assume ‘against’ because you were earlier.

If I’m familiar with Javascript and I hear the term “AJAX”, I know nothing about it. It’s a cleaning product where I’m from. If I hear “JavaScript & XML”, I know I’m working with XML and Javascript, so to a developer that term is more useful to me if I’m wanting to learn about it.

*sigh* I was trying to help, I really was. As a recruiter, it my experience (and others that I’ve spoken to) that people who use the term AJAX without its components have less technical ability than those who do. When I ask for work examples they send something they copy & pasted from a tutorial that they assume I haven’t already seen. Candidates who refer to Javascript & XML (sometimes known as AJAX) generally have a better grasp of the technology and can use it in a real world situation.

For example, one candidate during a telephone interview mention he could program AJAX. After a few looks around the table we threw him a lifeline and asked him to describe the ‘technology’. 30 seconds into his speech we’d found the site he was reading off and were miming along with it.

The main use I’ve seen for the term AJAX is for 2 IT people who like to make up for a lack of technical ability by winning games of “I know more buzzwords than thou”.

AJAX is not the only offender in this. The amount of candidates I’ve seen that say they know XHTML is large, because it’s become a buzzword (but an acceptable one). However, the majority have simply made a badly formed HTML page and slapped an XHTML doctype at the top.

I’m not just arguing for the sake of it. I’m speaking from real experience. If you’re going to go into an interview situation and mention AJAX without refering to its components, do yourself a favour and just leave it at “I know web stuff and that”, you’ll achieve the same result.

If the effect you’re trying to achieve can be done without AJAX, it’s probably best without AJAX

There’s *nothing* that can’t be done without AJAX that can be done with it.

AJAX functionality is usually beneficial, but it should NEVER require breaking the back button or general web usage. I should still be able to right click and open a link in a new tab. I should be able to bookmark the current display and go back later. My back button should always work.

Implementing it isn’t hard at all. Use the hash, Luke!

As far as the term “AJAX” goes — it’s perfectly acceptable. I used to be against it, because it’s such a misnomber, but you know what? It works. It works for the same reason why DHTML worked years ago — because everyone knew what you were talking about. Plus, it’s far fewer words to say.

Google:
“Javascript and CSS”
vs.
“DHTML”

And

“JavaScript and XML” (or CSS, HTML, XHTML)
vs.
“AJAX”

Which are more effective for a developer wanting to learn / use these technologies, or groupings of technologies?

Ajax ajax ajax ajax…

Furthermore;

if you’re talking to another true professional you call it Javascript and CSS

it’s the person’s work that defines a “true professional” not the words s/he uses to describe their work.

Now instead of debating what words we should use why don’t we focus on the real problems with AJAX such as the issue Kevin highlights in this blog entry.

If we were talking about making coffee better in a technical way, I’m sure we’d refer to ground beans, water, and steamed milk as individuals. If you want to stand by your analogy, tell me how to make a good coffee without mentioning ground beans, water, and steamed milk.

Could I have some ground beans, water, and steamed milk please?

Unless you’re using asp.net, where frequent postbacks and really strange scripting is just something you must learn to live with.

It’s crazy how it has taken till now for someone to figure out “let’s use the page anchor as a hook”

:D

AJAX is industry standard, yes, but in the same way that DHTML is. A client asks “Can you do DHTML?”, you reply “Yes! I can! I love DHTML”. However, if you’re talking to another true professional you call it Javascript and CSS, because that’s what it is and faux-trendyness isn’t necessary. In a short amount of time, the term AJAX will be as laughable as DHTML; it’s not a technology, it’s a buzzword. The discussions at the @media conference (the main players in web technology) prove this to be true.

I’m happy to talk AJAX with clients, because they love it. But I refuse to patronise peers in such a way.

I think the main point that Kevin is trying to make is that there is a big drawback to a browser’s nav bar and the use of AJAX. Flash is a great example of this in the effect that if you develop a very deep flash project that is all included in one file on one page – and a user shops for 10 minutes or so and gets a huge shopping cart, then hits the back button: poof, gone. So I appreciate the tip Kevin.

AJAX is a pretty industry standard term these days. I know its several technologies combined, but as long is whatever is trying to be communicated is – I think its fine.

Jaffa, don’t get too angry on a Friday ;)