Comments on: The IDE divide http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/ Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:06:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Skunk http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1436 Skunk Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1436 <p>You're spot on with respect to Java; I've been forced to use it for some projects at Uni and the only way I've found of keeping sane has been to use Eclipse, which really does eliminate a lot of the pain by "second guessing" what you are trying to do, allowing quick creation of boiler plate code. It quickly becomes obvious that the only reason it can do this is Java's static typing. The thing is, even with the huge power of Eclipse at my command I'm still ten times more productive with Python. Of course, I have far more Python experience and I've probably only scratched the surface of what Eclipse can do but it still seems like a pretty big divide.</p> You’re spot on with respect to Java; I’ve been forced to use it for some projects at Uni and the only way I’ve found of keeping sane has been to use Eclipse, which really does eliminate a lot of the pain by “second guessing” what you are trying to do, allowing quick creation of boiler plate code. It quickly becomes obvious that the only reason it can do this is Java’s static typing. The thing is, even with the huge power of Eclipse at my command I’m still ten times more productive with Python. Of course, I have far more Python experience and I’ve probably only scratched the surface of what Eclipse can do but it still seems like a pretty big divide.

]]> By: Matt http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1437 Matt Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1437 <p>C++ programmers aren't necessarily tool-oriented. I do a lot of C++ work (for my job and for other Open Source things) in vim and am perfectly happy doing it. C++ lends itself quite well to that sort of raw development.</p> <p>Java, on the other hand, feels almost like it was designed for use with an IDE. Take it away, take it away!</p> C++ programmers aren’t necessarily tool-oriented. I do a lot of C++ work (for my job and for other Open Source things) in vim and am perfectly happy doing it. C++ lends itself quite well to that sort of raw development.

Java, on the other hand, feels almost like it was designed for use with an IDE. Take it away, take it away!

]]> By: jesse http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1438 jesse Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1438 <p>For those who resist IDE's they are only making there life more difficult... I program PHP applications with Zend IDE Studio and it has cut my developement time by 50%! classes are stored for auto-completion, class functions and variables are stored for auto-complete the second that you type them. No matter where I am in my code I get auto-completion on the methods of my class ex I type:<br /> $objClass = new traslation('en');</p> <p>when I type $objClass-> all of the methods and variables appear in the autocompletion box!!! This is GREAT!</p> <p>furthermore it has the same global auto-completion for my function libraries and variable names!!! As well as java/php doc comments so that every auto-complete tells me exactly what the function returns and what it does.</p> <p>This is a great help when you have 3 concurrent web projects and 50,000 lines of code 15 class and 300 functions. </p> <p>A good IDE is to application developement what CVS is to group/open source projects.</p> <p>The more we use IDE's the more get produced and the better they get.</p> For those who resist IDE’s they are only making there life more difficult… I program PHP applications with Zend IDE Studio and it has cut my developement time by 50%! classes are stored for auto-completion, class functions and variables are stored for auto-complete the second that you type them. No matter where I am in my code I get auto-completion on the methods of my class ex I type:
$objClass = new traslation(’en’);

when I type $objClass-> all of the methods and variables appear in the autocompletion box!!! This is GREAT!

furthermore it has the same global auto-completion for my function libraries and variable names!!! As well as java/php doc comments so that every auto-complete tells me exactly what the function returns and what it does.

This is a great help when you have 3 concurrent web projects and 50,000 lines of code 15 class and 300 functions.

A good IDE is to application developement what CVS is to group/open source projects.

The more we use IDE’s the more get produced and the better they get.

]]> By: eivind http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1439 eivind Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1439 <p>I use both PHP and C#, but prefere C# because of Visual Studio. I think wizards and drag 'n drop is ok to get started quick, but after a while I always find myself working the code. The nice thing about Visual Studio is that you have the ability to do both. Different colors and autocomplete function make the coding easier and save me a lot of time. And I have full control of the code as well.</p> I use both PHP and C#, but prefere C# because of Visual Studio. I think wizards and drag ‘n drop is ok to get started quick, but after a while I always find myself working the code. The nice thing about Visual Studio is that you have the ability to do both. Different colors and autocomplete function make the coding easier and save me a lot of time. And I have full control of the code as well.

]]> By: Louis-Philippe Huberdeau http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1440 Louis-Philippe Huberdeau Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1440 <p>I use VIM for everything (including Java and C++). I just like the idea of having to organise my code and keep it clean. Most IDEs generate total crap by default and unless you actually spend time cleaning it up (which goes back to writing it all), it remains like that. I just write it all by hand, document it, add fold markers. The ending result is very clean and maintainable.</p> <p>Writing is a very small part of development anyway. Thinking about it takes much more time. Do IDEs think for you?</p> <p>If it's just about code templates and save around 30 characters typing a base class definition, most acceptable editiors allow you to define macros...</p> I use VIM for everything (including Java and C++). I just like the idea of having to organise my code and keep it clean. Most IDEs generate total crap by default and unless you actually spend time cleaning it up (which goes back to writing it all), it remains like that. I just write it all by hand, document it, add fold markers. The ending result is very clean and maintainable.

Writing is a very small part of development anyway. Thinking about it takes much more time. Do IDEs think for you?

If it’s just about code templates and save around 30 characters typing a base class definition, most acceptable editiors allow you to define macros…

]]> By: Captain Proton http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1441 Captain Proton Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1441 <p><blockquote><p>Personally would say I'm language oriented</p></blockquote> Excuse me? You're <i>language oriented</i>? </p> <p>It seems quite obvious to me that when you look at this blog, most of the posts are about PHP tool this, PHP tool that, instead of about the core PHP language (note that PHP modules are tools, they are not part of the language itself)...</p>

Personally would say I’m language oriented

Excuse me? You’re language oriented?

It seems quite obvious to me that when you look at this blog, most of the posts are about PHP tool this, PHP tool that, instead of about the core PHP language (note that PHP modules are tools, they are not part of the language itself)…

]]> By: lastcraft http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1442 lastcraft Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1442 <p>Hi...</p> <p>I would say Harry is "language oriented" as defined by the original discussion. I am too and believe any time the editor can work out what you wanted to type, the programming language could probably have eliminated.</p> <p>The one thing that will get me to change my mind is the automated refactoring tools. Being able to rename things safely alone makes these tools worthwhile. Even C++ers are jealous of this one.</p> <p>yours, Marcus</p> Hi…

I would say Harry is “language oriented” as defined by the original discussion. I am too and believe any time the editor can work out what you wanted to type, the programming language could probably have eliminated.

The one thing that will get me to change my mind is the automated refactoring tools. Being able to rename things safely alone makes these tools worthwhile. Even C++ers are jealous of this one.

yours, Marcus

]]> By: Kick The Donkey http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1443 Kick The Donkey Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1443 <p>Well, I think there is a happy medium. For instance, with PHP, I have no need, or desire for a huge IDE. All I need is a text editor with a few added features: Syntax highlighting, auto-indent, line numbering, etc. </p> <p>However, when I'm coding in Java, I've found that I can't live without MyEclipseIDE. </p> Well, I think there is a happy medium. For instance, with PHP, I have no need, or desire for a huge IDE. All I need is a text editor with a few added features: Syntax highlighting, auto-indent, line numbering, etc.

However, when I’m coding in Java, I’ve found that I can’t live without MyEclipseIDE.

]]> By: OfficeOfTheLaw http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1444 OfficeOfTheLaw Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1444 <p>It's funny how I used to soley rely on IDEs back in my uni days... I thought it was impossible to write a C++ program without that borland ide, or java without JBuilder (probably the worst of java IDEs, in my opinion).</p> <p>Once I got into *nix and vim, I haven't gone back. I have a large .vimrc file filled with all kinds of auto-completion goodies and scripts that makes my life easier (for example, to create a skeleton of a unit test using SimpleTest, I just type ~~unittest and it gets replaced with the class, just like the one generated by Maguma Studio).</p> <p>I guess it all boils down to experience... I'd had some bad times with some IDEs throwing in code I didn't want because it tried to second guess me, and I'm just pretty language oriented. Plus I like to exercise my Lisp and bash scripting skills from time to time to automate my own development process.</p> It’s funny how I used to soley rely on IDEs back in my uni days… I thought it was impossible to write a C++ program without that borland ide, or java without JBuilder (probably the worst of java IDEs, in my opinion).

Once I got into *nix and vim, I haven’t gone back. I have a large .vimrc file filled with all kinds of auto-completion goodies and scripts that makes my life easier (for example, to create a skeleton of a unit test using SimpleTest, I just type ~~unittest and it gets replaced with the class, just like the one generated by Maguma Studio).

I guess it all boils down to experience… I’d had some bad times with some IDEs throwing in code I didn’t want because it tried to second guess me, and I’m just pretty language oriented. Plus I like to exercise my Lisp and bash scripting skills from time to time to automate my own development process.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2004/11/26/the-ide-divide/#comment-1445 Anonymous Wed, 31 Dec 1969 19:00:00 +0000 #comment-1445 <p>IDE's are great, once you know the language. Too many developers learn to program using an IDE and a) get stuck with it, b) don't understand the language because everything is done for them.</p> <p>Learn to program using vim, emacs, notepad or whatever. Understand the language, then many an IDE should help productivity.</p> <p>The down side? Some IDEs take away the flexibility to move the code. You lose code reuse because of stupid naming conventions an ide hooks.</p> <p>Eclipse/Netbeans provide clean interfaces to programming without creating convoluted code. Netbeans delivers the whole project as an ANT build, totally divorceable from any IDE.</p> IDE’s are great, once you know the language. Too many developers learn to program using an IDE and a) get stuck with it, b) don’t understand the language because everything is done for them.

Learn to program using vim, emacs, notepad or whatever. Understand the language, then many an IDE should help productivity.

The down side? Some IDEs take away the flexibility to move the code. You lose code reuse because of stupid naming conventions an ide hooks.

Eclipse/Netbeans provide clean interfaces to programming without creating convoluted code. Netbeans delivers the whole project as an ANT build, totally divorceable from any IDE.

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