SitePoint Podcast #45: The One Without Kevin
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Here are the topics covered in this episode:
Google, China, and Germany’s advice to its citizens to stop using IE
- Stop Using Internet Explorer Warns German Government (SitePoint)
- Why Is Europe Abandoning Internet Explorer? (The Atlantic Wire)
- Hackers Wield Newest IE Exploit in Drive-by Attacks (Computerworld)
- Microsoft To Emergency Patch IE As The Web Gathers With Pitchforks Around IE6 (TechCrunch)
- Twitter’s Answer To Facebook Connect (TechCrunch)
One Third of US Adults Online Update Their Social Network Regularly
- Social Technographics: Conversationalists get onto the ladder (Groundswell)
- One Third of U.S. Internet Users Now Post Status Updates Once per Week (ReadWriteWeb)
Oracle and the Future of MySQL
- MySQL Co-founder Doubts Oracle Support (CBR Online)
- Oracle Won’t Kill MySQL, Says Co-Founder (InformationWeek)
Mozilla Jetpack and the Future of Add-ons
Haiti Relief: whatgives.com/haiti
Patrick: Hello and welcome to another edition of the SitePoint podcast. This is Patrick O’Keefe filling in for our usual co-host, Kevin Yank. As usual, I’m joined by Brad Williams and Stephan Segraves, and before we get started tonight, I just wanted to announce the situation in Haiti — obviously, a very difficult situation.
The people of Haiti are dealing with a tragic disaster right now, and if you can do something, I encourage you to do it whether that’s donating or helping in some way, whether it’s $1 or $3, $5. What may be a small amount to you can be put together with other people’s small amounts and together can become something big and have a large impact in the country. So donate to your favorite charity or if you need help, visit whatgives.com/Haiti for a list, and our thoughts and prayers are with the people affected by this situation.
So with that said, Brad and Stephan will be heading on the road and will be appearing in Boston this Saturday, January 23rd, isn’t that right guys?
Brad: It’s Boston.
Patrick: I lived in Ashland for 10 years so, you know, give me a pass there.
Brad: Yeah, we’re going to WordCamp Boston. I’m looking forward to it. I’m actually giving a presentation on WordPress security and I will be participating in the Ignite round, which is basically where you get 15 seconds of slides. The slides auto progress, so it goes very, very quickly and that presentation will be on the 20 WordPress plugins that you’ve never heard of. So I’m looking forward to seeing Stephan again and joining another great WordCamp.
Patrick: Sounds a little like an Ignite presentation.
Brad: Ignite, yeah, I thought I said Ignite.
Patrick: Oh, did you? Okay, sorry. Yeah, Ignite WordCamp. It sounds like a lot of fun.
Brad: Yeah, it should be great.
Patrick: And Stephan, are you just headed up there as attendee — Brad’s supporter and so forth?
Stephan: Yeah, I’m moral support for Brad.
Brad: He’s in my fan club.
Patrick: He flies all the way there to see Brad speak but he can’t drive an hour or whatever it is to Austin to see me.
Stephan: We had this discussion. I’ll be at South by Southwest this year.
Brad: In the hallways?
Stephan: In the hallways.
Patrick: At the end of this episode, we will also be announcing the winner of our iTunes Review PDF giveaway, so stay tune for that. And with that said, let’s get into our first story of the day. On episode 43 of the podcast we talked about MySQL founder, Monty — Michael Widenius — and his efforts to get MySQL stripped out of the package that Oracle acquires when it completes its acquisition of Sun Microsystems.
We have a little bit of an update — the perspective of the other co-founder of MySQL. His name is David Axmark and I found the story through the twittering of Zack Urlocker and also a story at Information Week by Bob Evans, but Axmark told CBR that he doesn’t believe that Oracle has a real reason to support MySQL and that in itself sounds pretty gloomy as well. But his perspective is a little more brighter than his fellow co-founder because he feels that Oracle is unlikely to kill off MySQL and that their current customers shouldn’t be badly affected by it.
He says, “I doubt that they’d kill anything. Will they aggressively sell to companies that Oracle can sell to? Never. Will it hurt the current MySQL customers? Probably not. There’s no money to be made for them there.”
He advises Oracle, he says if he was Oracle, he would aim MySQL even farther at the web sector where Oracle doesn’t have anything, in his words “some more development, more usage and they don’t really lose any revenue”. He says he would aim MySQL at the enterprise sector where Oracle already has a strong presence.
Guys, does this make you feel a little bit better about the Oracle acquisition of Sun and MySQL falling into their hands?
Brad: Not really. I mean, I don’t think they even come out and if they did have plans or had even thought about dropping MySQL, they’re not going to come out and say it — especially not right now before any decision about them acquiring Sun has happened. So I guess it’s really hard to say what’s going to happen. Most of the listeners out there know I’m pretty involved in open source and just about every open source web product out there runs off of MySQL, so it’s definitely a hot topic in many open source communities out there. So we’re definitely keeping an eye on it. It will be interesting to see how they rule, if they’re even allowed to purchase Sun. It looks like they have to have a verdict in by the 27th of this month. So we should know by then which way this is going to go.
Stephan: You know I think he makes me feel a little better, but I’m still a little leery to say that I feel comfortable that MySQL will still be around in a few months.
Patrick: Yeah, it’s not terribly reassuring. I mean it wasn’t actually a very positive message. He was just… I don’t think they’ll really kill it and I think people will be okay, but he doesn’t think they have any reason to support it. So that’s not really a great message either.
Stephan: Right. I do agree with his one point about upselling current MySQL customers to Oracle and him thinking that’s tiny money. It is. To get someone that’s using a free and open source product to move to an Oracle solution which can cost lots of money, I think it’s just an unreasonable goal. I just don’t think it’s possible for Oracle to really sell their product to people who already use MySQL.
Brad: They’d probably have better luck pushing them into SQL Server on the Microsoft platform.
Stephan: Yeah, right.
Brad: Oracle is just so expensive. I mean it really is a kind of top-tier database out there and the pricing on it is just out of the ballpark for a lot of players out there. I mean it’s just too expensive.
Stephan:: Yeah, they do have a 1 GB limit if you can keep your databases under 1 GB because they enforce based on size for some products. So if you can keep your product under 1 GB then it’s fairly affordable. But when you think about how things are growing so fast, you know we’re just using so much space now … I don’t think it’s feasible.
Patrick: And Monty’s effort to, in his words, save MySQL, is reflected on HelpMySQL.org. As of this moment, he has 31,046 sign-ups to his online petition.
Well, our next story comes from Michael Arrington at TechCrunch, and he reports according to multiple sources that Twitter is preparing to launch a new set of tools that will basically be their answer to Facebook Connect. Right now, Twitter has their own sort of authorization, where websites can connect at Twitter and share information, but you have to go through the process of redirecting to Twitter and we’ve all clicked the Allow button a bunch of times. This new product will allow sites to, well, to work like Facebook Connect: to authenticate users, pull data and then publish back to Twitter. Just like Facebook Connect does, they can stay on your website and you can use the Twitter data and, I would assume, share information from the sites you’re on with Twitter and it’ll be a lot more smooth and seamless.
Brad, you do a lot of web development — are you excited about this development? Does it make you more likely to tie into this Twitter Connect feature, or are you not really even using Facebook Connect right now?
Brad: I think it’s great. I do actually use Facebook Connect a lot. Everyone’s pretty familiar with it now as far as clients that come to us. They know that they want Facebook Connect, they want some kind of Facebook integration and it is completely easy. Just about every software platform out there have some kind of Facebook Connect integration at this point or some kind of plug-in, a module that you can install. They give you that, but I really like the idea. What Twitter is doing is, because I feel like with all the issues Facebook had with privacy and what content’s shared and who’s gained it and this and that, Twitter just seems to make a little more sense as far as kind of being the single sign-on service for a connect type platform like this. It’s just there’s a lot less sensitive information on Twitter. You don’t have all that kind of private data that you might have on Facebook. On Twitter, you really just have your name, your email, your status updates, a little bio and that’s about it. So I think it makes sense. I guess I want to see exactly how the platform works, how easy it is to integrate but I’m pretty excited about it.
Stephan: You know I think it’s easy to integrate with Facebook Connect. What I don’t like about Facebook Connect is the options for the user and how much control you have over it. To me it’s kind of like an on/off switch when I use Facebook Connect. I don’t want, say some Flickr groups to get imported, and I have to change that in the application side rather than the Facebook side. I just wish it was a little easier to use and manage my different things that are using Facebook Connect. If Twitter figures that out and perfects it, then I think that’s awesome.
Brad: You know a big piece that Facebook Connect is missing that everybody wishes it had is it doesn’t share the email address of the user. I’m sure that’s for spam reasons but it will be interesting to see if Twitter keeps that same policy and doesn’t share the email address or using the connect service through Twitter if it would actually share that email with the website that it’s connecting through.
Stephan: Yeah, it’s interesting marketing, isn’t it.
Brad: It would definitely get buzz around it. I mean, you know a lot of people, they want…
Patrick: They would definitely get buzzed. Now, I don’t know if that’s good buzz or bad buzz.
Brad: The social media networks; it’s all about the buzz and who’s talking about you.
Patrick: Yeah, says the German government. But one question is: how many connects do we need, right? Obviously, Twitter and Facebook, these are premier services on the web right now as far as userbase and marketshare of the web itself, but they will have their genesis? They’re maybe not the be-all, end-all, and may go away and their Connect goes away and you know — do we need MySpace Connect? I mean, how many of these boxes do we need? Is it going to become like a refill button on sites where you can just collect all this number of sites they can connect with and share the user data or is there a limit? Do you think Facebook and Twitter are basically the end of this right now or is this something that we’re going to continue to see other services come out with?
Brad: I’m sure it’s not the end of it. I mean, obviously, everybody kind of wants to be that one service that’s kind of the single sign-on. I mean, it’s the same debate. I think we talked about this on the first episode of the SitePoint Podcast.
Patrick: Back in the 50s.
Brad: Yeah, back in the 50s. You know, it will never end because everybody wants to be number one, and there’s always going to be challengers, and this is just another challenger but the nice thing is it’s just so easy. If you hit a site and you see the Facebook Connect button, you know if you click that and then you wait a while, that’s all you have to do and you’re already logged in and you already have an account. I mean it just makes it so easy to register an account on a site, whereas there are a lot of sites that I probably wouldn’t register on. I wouldn’t register a brand new account on some of these sites but if there’s a connect button, I’m more apt to do that. So I think the more that this grows, the more sites will have some kind of easy connect — whether it be through Facebook or Twitter or whatever. I think it’s a good thing.
Stephan: You know honestly, I don’t see either of the services being the central one that I’ll use. I don’t use my Facebook account enough to use it as my connect for different websites and I probably won’t. I don’t use Twitter enough for that either. So I don’t know that it’s the one and I don’t even know if Google would do that for me. I like the idea, the single sign on but you know, Patrick, we’ve talked about this — before that do we really want it to be that easy and all of our information centrally stored and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Stephan: And so I don’t know. I’m not sold.
Patrick: Yeah. I mean, where I like the API and the information is really for finding friends that are on these other services that I sign up for. I just signed up for Foursquare, and I think Gowalla, is it? I’m not going to use them most likely. I have a cheap page at Go Phone, but I wanted to secure my name and might as well connect with my friends, so I did and that’s a good thing.
Now as far as Facebook Connect, I think it’s just a term. It’s based on preference for what you want to do. I think is Brad’s case, it makes sense. In other cases, some other people may not want to do it because for whatever reason, they want to have their information not all tied into their Facebook account and there are different types of accounts. Like a blog comment: you usually don’t get an account anyway, so, you know, what’s the big deal there? A forum account or something else — another social network — you might want to separate your logins. I mean that’s just me, but I guess we’ll see how far the connect thing goes. I guess it’s a form of marketing in a way too, to be that one — the one great internet company that controls all the user accounts. I guess we’ll see how it goes.
Well, our next story comes from Craig Buckler on the SitePoint blog, he writes about the — well, the concerned speculation — the rumour that JetPack would replace Firefox’s XUL extensions, and soon. But according Mozilla, that’s not going to happen. Craig posted a snippet of an interview that he did with Nick Nguyen, Mozilla’s Add-Ons Director, and he said that “JetPack is an experimental platform which is driven by members of the community as well from Mozilla labs.” He goes on to say that they’re trying different things, they’re experimenting. It’s much easier to do that when you have something that you can rely on already like their add-on system they have, and they also released a separate statement in response to the speculation saying that “JetPack tries to make everything about add-ons easier from how they’re developed to how they’re installed and managed. If JetPack becomes just as functional and powerful as the existing system, then we’ll talk about whether migrating all extensions to the new platform makes sense.” They say it’s too early to talk about this right now, and no decision has been made as far as deprecating the existing system. They say that they are at least months away from the point where JetPack can serve as even a viable alternative for writing Firefox extensions.
So I use Firefox. I forget where you guys stand on that, but what do you make of this story in general?
Brad: I think it’s good that they came out and said that. I think most of us kind of knew they were not just going to drop add-ons … that’d be like Apple changing the application platform and then saying “You know what, we’re going to just drop all the apps at the store.” That’s never going to happen. I mean it’s too much of a foundation behind the Firefox browser and it’s one of the main reasons it got so popular, because of these add-ons. And just like the article states, people have really become reliable on many of these add-ons and they won’t switch browsers until there’s a comparable add-on or extension that does the same thing.
So yeah, I think it’s great that they kind of rebuilt it. I mean JetPack, you know, just reading up on it, is going to have a lot of cool features: you don’t have to restart when you install an extension; it’s going to have improved security and performance; and it’s also going to be independent from the browser version. So when the new version of Firefox comes out, you don’t have to wait for that add-on to be upgraded; it’s going to work out of the box.
Long term, it’s going to be great, but I’m sure they’re going to just kind of phase it in and then run them side-by-side, and then once JetPack kind of becomes a dominant player for add-ons, then they’ll look at probably retiring the old system. But that’s not going to be an overnight type thing.
Stephan: I think it’s entirely too early to be speculating on it. I’m just going to throw it out there.
Brad: I like to speculate.
Stephan: Well, I mean, I guess it’s kind of what we’re here to do but I agree with you, Brad, I think that’s eventually what will happen — if they really think JetPack’s successful and it’s really useful, then I think that we’ll see it phased in over a decent amount of time. I don’t think that they’re going to kill off add-ons and throw JetPack out there. I don’t think Mozilla is that inept at managing their product.
Patrick: Alright, so our next story comes via TweetMeme via ReadWriteWeb. There is a survey that’s been released by Josh Bernoff at the Groundswell blog at Forrester.com. Basically they polled US-based online adults and asked them about the social activities online that they participate in — their browsing habits in general, things like reading blogs and online forums all the way up to publishing your own blog and publishing your own web pages, and they divided them into seven unique groups on a ladder. They found that ***17% of adults online did none of the following things. 70% were what they call spectators — they read blogs, they listen to podcasts, they watch video from other users, they read online forums, and read tweets, and so on. 59% are joiners– they maintain a presence on a social networking site and they visit those types of sites as well. 20% were what they call collectors — people that use RSS feeds, vote for websites online and add tags to web pages and photos. 37% fell into the critics category, which they felt was contributing to online forums, editing a wiki, commenting on someone’s blog, and posting ratings and reviews online. 32% are conversationalists — people that post updates to Twitter and update their status on a social networking site. And finally, creators were 24%; those people publish a blog, publish their own web pages, upload video, upload music, and write articles and stories and post them online.
So I found this interesting. Some of the major new sites are latching onto, I guess you could say, like ReadWriteWeb … One of the main stories that many of the major new sites are latching onto is the fact that 33% of people were found to be conversationalists or people that update their status online. So essentially, a third of online adults in the US now update a status on a social networking site or Twitter.
So I know that we all fall into probably most of these categories ourselves here on the show. What do you guys think of the survey?
Stephan: I wish they’d included the crossover in those groups, where conversationalists are also reviewers and things like that.
Stephan: Just to see it. I’d be interested in that. But I find it interesting that there a lot more spectators … but I guess it makes sense, a lot more spectators than conversationalists. It’s about double, the number of spectators out there or percentage of spectators.
Patrick: Yeah, I guess you can be both a spectator and a joiner. So it would be interesting to see the overlap there.
Another thing I found interesting was considering to an online forum is in critics not conversationalists, and status is almost exclusively conversationalists. I don’t know; maybe I’m getting caught up on just the heading there, the verbiage of these groups, but it seemed a little odd to me that forums were not part of the conversationalist category.
Stephan: The cool thing is that 24% of these people were creators and that’s a good thing, right? I mean I’d like to see that number grow over time and I couldn’t find an old version of the graph like last year’s but I’d be interested to see how much that number has grown.
Patrick: Yeah, I’m not sure if they had one. Brad?
Brad: I’m curious what the inactives do. I mean they’re not reading reviews, they’re not reading forums, they’re not reading blogs or podcasts, I mean what exactly are they doing online?
Patrick: They go to CNN.com.
Stephan: Buying things on eBay.
Brad: Seventy percent, that’s a big number.
Patrick: Yeah, they could be buying things I guess online stores, that’s one. They buy it online. Maybe they check email, maybe they IM. The IM isn’t represented here at all. So maybe they IM, I don’t know. It’s interesting to consider.
Brad: Yeah, I’m actually shocked by that stat that a third of the users are posting weekly updates. I mean I think it’s really cool. I mean, I’ve been doing it for years, I think we all have but I mean it’s shocking that it’s high. If I would have guessed, maybe half that. I think it just kind of goes to show the way the web is evolving, more people are getting involved with it. So it’s pretty neat.
Patrick: So if 33% of online adults post status updates, then I wonder what represent of American teenagers post status updates.
Stephan: It would have to be a lot — really, really high, now that my mom’s posting status.
Patrick: She probably participated in this survey. She’s in every category!
Alright, now let’s talk about a major story, Our biggest story of the week is about Internet Explorer — the government espionage and all those great things. Brad?
Brad: Google has been hacked. That’s kind of my intro. Basically, Google reported they detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack in their corporate infrastructure which originated in China, which isn’t too surprising itself. Obviously Google is probably a big target for a lot of hackers out there, but what’s interesting about this hack is they’ve actually kind of narrowed it down and realized that the hackers were trying to basically get into Gmail accounts of activists in China. So that kind of raised some red flags on who was actually behind the attack. And actually, it didn’t just affect Google; it actually affected about 20 large companies, Google one of them, Adobe was another one, and a few others.
They exploited a vulnerability that existed in every version of Internet Explorer, so IE 6, 7, and 8 were all affected and now there’s a kind of backlash because of that. A few European governments have actually released official statements advising their web users that they need to find an alternative browser until Internet Explorer is patched. And as of recording this, Microsoft has not released a patch so that exploit still exists or that vulnerability still exists in the browser. So the governments are stepping in and telling the users to get off of Internet Explorer until that fix has come into place.
Stephan: I think it’s a sad day if it’s true that the Chinese are doing this to get back at Google in their statements, in their position on the great firewall. I think that it speaks even more poorly about that country’s take on human rights and freedom of speech. If we can get to the bottom of it, if we actually get solid answers on what’s going on, then I think we can make definitive statements about the Chinese government but until then … There’s an article in the New York Times about this, talking about how the code that was debugged had some patterns, and what they thought was an Easter egg may have actually been put in — that this Trojan horse was actually created by someone who wanted to make it look like the Chinese government. I’m really interested in knowing if that’s true.
Patrick: You know, I don’t know how I feel about this. I mean, there are a few different storylines here. Obviously, there is the China-Google storyline, there’s the IE storyline, there’s the governments and how Germany advised users to stop using Internet Explorer in, I guess, in any capacity — IE 6, 7, or 8 and I don’t know. I understand the suggestion or the advisory to tell people to stop using something that is vulnerable and find something else. Now, I don’t know what type of warning that they put out or how concrete this sort of thing is usually taken by the Germany people. I mean, maybe this is just bureaucracy or whatever but it does seem strange to me just because of software by its very nature, it gets vulnerabilities. I guess you could say IE is still influential and still widely used that maybe it’s worth it because it could be cataclysmic but it seems strange for the government to come out and say something about computer software like this where it doesn’t seem to happen that often. Maybe it happens more than I know but I don’t know how I feel about that. Any thoughts on that?
Brad: Yeah. I mean, it’s different. I can’t think of any time where the US government has come out and said don’t use this browser, there’s a hole in it. I mean I don’t think that ever happened. I don’t know if it ever would unless it was so bad that no matter what site you hit, you’re going to get infected. But even to get exploited, you still have to hit a malicious site. So just going to your regular websites, you’re not going to be hacked. So you still have to kind of be out there surfing around on some bad sites for this to happen. But yeah, it is different. Obviously, Europe is different to the US.
Patrick: Yeah. I mean we’ve all used software and scripts that have vulnerabilities in it. You know PCB has a history of that sort of thing. WordPress has had plenty of vulnerabilities. Maybe the browser is such a cornerstone of the computing environment and it’s so important that maybe it is necessary for governments to issue a warning. So Microsoft is working to patch this, and they’ve done an out of bond/band patch in an attempt to fix it. So I guess we’ll see what happens and it’s just more trouble for IE and that always leads to more material our podcast. So here it is.
Alright, so at the start of this episode I mentioned that we would have a winner for our iTunes Review giveaway mentioned in episode 43. The winner is VM Tech. VM Tech, thank you for the review. We really appreciate it. Thank you to everyone who reviewed the podcast. To collect your prize, VM Tech, please email firstname.lastname@example.org. You’ll be able to choose a SitePoint PDF book and we hope you enjoy it.
Brad: My host spotlight is a little blast from the past and it’s actually a little program called ICQ. You guys both familiar with ICQ?
Patrick: I haven’t installed it.
Brad: They’ve actually released a new version, ICQ 7, which just came out and actually it still has the messaging component just like it used to, but it also has a social layer to it. So it integrates with Facebook, Twitter, Flickr, YouTube — all the standards — and it makes it easy to kind of share pictures and links with your friends through the different networks. So it’s pretty cool. Definitely check it out.
A little bit of trivia – do you guys remember when ICQ was originally released?
Patrick: Patrick runs to Google.
Brad: No Google, no Wiki.
Stephan: I guess it was today, 20 years ago or something?
Patrick: I have no idea. I know now because I looked it up but I wouldn’t have otherwise known.
Brad: 1990. No, it was actually — no guesses?
Patrick: Not a guess in good faith.
Brad: It was actually November 1996. So it was a while ago. I remember signing up back in the day — I still have ICQ, I actually don’t use it anymore but the new version is definitely a step up. It has kind of caught up with the times, so it’s definitely worth a second look. You can head to ICQ.com.
Patrick: I actually don’t have it installed, so I might have to take a look at it and, for nostalgic reasons at least, reinstall it and give it a little hard drive space.
Brad: I’m excisted to hear that “uh-oh” new message sound.
Patrick: Out of curiosity, is it something that you keep open like your other clients?
Brad: Oh, I didn’t say I’m running it.
Patrick: Okay. Everybody else, do it first, test it out, and get back to that.
Brad: Let me know how it goes.
Patrick: Yeah, WebDevStudios.com, drop him an email, let him know. So, Stephan?
Stephan: Yeah. This is a comic that I found. It’s how to tell people that they’re wrong or how to tell someone that they’re wrong. It’s for those disagreements you have with people when they just say really dumb things and you’ve gotta come up with a way, and it’s a really funny take on it. So it’s on BasicInstructions.net and I’ll share the link in the notes.
Brad: You sir, are wrong.
Patrick: So what’s the tip then? How should we tell people they’re wrong?
Stephan: Well, they’ve got four steps. You then look to see if you’re dealing with an open-minded person — if you can’t see any reasons for the other person’s position, you have to ask them and make a point that that stuff didn’t occur to you, and then once you understand the logic, you have to explain logically again why they’re wrong.
Patrick: And I’m sure it’s funny when you’re reading the comic.
Stephan: It is. Yeah, see I can’t explain it.
Patrick: Yeah. I understand. You don’t want ruin it.
Stephan: Exactly. Yeah, we just cut this part out of the show.
Patrick: Now it’s staying. Alright, so my spotlight is an article by Jay Baer at ConvinceandConvert.com. It’s called Attacking the Social Media Lynch Mob and in the article Jay talks about just some articles recently that have come out. It’s been a popular topic in this small social media space to criticize anyone who calls themselves a “social media expert” and all of these people popping up who proclaim that they had no social media. Jay takes a different perspective, saying that everything will work out at the end — people who don’t have that much experience, in the end, it will all even out — clients will find out who to work with, who the better consultants are, and so on and so forth. Who are we to criticize someone else who may not know as much in a medium that is really pretty young. So I thought it was a really good read and if you have any interest in the subject, definitely check it out. Jay is a smart guy and a good writer.
So, let’s do our host sign offs guys.
Brad: Sure. I’m Brad Williams from Web Dev Studios and you can find me on Twitter @williamsba.
Patrick: I am Patrick O’Keefe for the iFroggy Network, ifroggy.com. You can find me on Twitter @ifroggy and you can follow our usual co-host, Kevin Yank @sentience and SitePoint @sitepointdotcom. You can visit us at http://www.sitepoint.com/ to leave comments on this show or any show and to subscribe and to receive every show automatically.
Email email@example.com with your questions for us. We’d love to read them out on the show and give you our advice.
The SitePoint podcast is produced by the great Carl Longnecker.
Thank you for listening and we’ll see you next time.
Theme music by Mike Mella.
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