SitePoint Podcast #66: WordCamp Raleigh with Michael Torbert and Steve Mortiboy
Episode 66 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves), and Brad Williams (@williamsba) reminisce about WordCamp Raleigh and share live interviews they recorded with the conference organizers.
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Patrick: June 18, 2010. We recap our time at WordCamp Raleigh and speak with two of the organizers behind the event. This is the SitePoint Podcast #66, WordCamp Raleigh with Michael Torbert and Steve Mortiboy.
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the SitePoint Podcast. This is Patrick O’Keefe, and I’m joined today by my usual co-hosts Brad Williams and Stephan Segraves. We’re without Kevin Yank today as Kevin couldn’t make it to WordCamp Raleigh being so far away, and this show will be focused on WordCamp Raleigh. The conference was held from May 22nd to 23rd, and if you didn’t know, we live streamed a two-hour show on the first day of the event with an array of guests, prizes, and audience interaction, and it was myself, Brad, and Stephan as we were together in person for the first time ever. So we hooked up to do a special edition of the Podcast, and today we’re going to talk about highlights from the conference itself, from the Podcast, and from our own presentations before diving into an interview we recorded at the event with two of the co-organizers behind the conference.
So, Brad, what were some of the —
Brad: Hello, hello.
Patrick: I mean let’s talk about this, right, it was a live SitePoint Podcast,
Brad: It was.
Patrick: We’ve done how many episodes, like 60 episodes now, and we had never done a live one; we’d never really done one in person, I’ve never done an in-person podcast, and yet we did it for the first time ever. What was it like? What did it feel like?
Brad: I was nervous; I’m not going to lie. Not so much nervous as being in front of the crowd and doing the live podcast, but nervous because there were so many different wheels spinning to make it happen, and I was worried that we would have a technical dilemma. Because not only were we doing a live podcast, we were also recording it, the audio, where we were live streaming the video, and we also had the speakers and sound system in the room all connected in. So there were a lot of different moving parts that something could have easily went wrong and threw the entire thing off. But amazingly it couldn’t have gone smoother, I mean I don’t think we had a single glitch that I remember, I mean it was absolutely flawless, it was really a good time.
Patrick: Yeah, I mean there was a lot of things that could’ve gone wrong, let’s say, there was — there was the stuff — there was us, right, we could’ve gone wrong.
Brad: Well, sure, that could’ve happened.
Patrick: Our planning of interviews, a process of giving away those prizes, trivia questions, audience questions, and on and on and on; there’s so much that can go wrong just right there. But then you have four mics tied into a huge mixer, tied into my laptop, recording the audio separately, streaming to USTREAM, both audio and video, and that being on sitepoint.com/podcast, and that’s just a testament to, I think, our preparation and work, but also Dave Moyer of Bitwire Media who was there to help us with the technical operation. I called him the Chief Technical Officer of SitePoint Podcast at WordCamp Raleigh, and that was very fitting.
Brad: Yeah, and definitely hat’s off to you, Patrick, because really behind the scenes Patrick really kind of organized this and scheduled it from day one. And he really kind of helped me and Stephan along by organizing the questions and making sure we were filling out questions, and I mean it was a strict timeline, and we had, what, 12 interviewees in a two-hour period, so we literally had a five or ten block for each person; they were in, they were out, and we had to move on. And if we delayed too much it would’ve been very easy to get off schedule, but since it was so defined from the beginning I think that’s what made it go so smoothly. So definitely hat’s off to you, Patrick, you did a really amazing job at that.
Patrick: Thanks, Brad, I appreciate that. And, like I said, it was all of us behind the scenes and stuff. And like Brad said, it’s 11 guests, we had —
Brad: You’re so humble.
Patrick: Well, thanks. We had really had 11 guests because one couldn’t make it, and then we had 33 prizes within 120 minutes, two hours. So 33 prizes, 11 guests, 10 trivia questions that ended up being probably — and just all this stuff that was happening, and yet it all seemed to come together very smoothly. Any thoughts Stephan?
Stephan: I think it went really well. You know, without the help that we had I think it would have been a lot harder for us to pull it off by ourselves. So, Dave Moyer and what was our runner, what’s his name?
Patrick: Brandon Speaks.
Stephan: Brandon Speaks, yeah, he was a big help running everything around. So without them it would’ve been really hard to do. And the crowd was great too; we had an awesome crowd, right, I mean it was packed.
Brad: We had a packed room when we started. I was truly amazed. I honestly didn’t think there would be more than maybe 20 or 30 people watching. I don’t know if we got an exact count, but there was definitely probably double if not triple that when we first started.
Brad: And obviously people were coming in and out because it was, you know, two hours, that’s kind of a long time. But there were — I mean we had a great crowd, a lot of good questions, a lot of good crowd participation, so.
Patrick: Oh, yeah, definitely. I think — and we had, like you said, I would say we almost filled the room, and I actually took pictures of the crowd from the table. So I haven’t shown you guys that, but I need to put those up online. And I went through and counted kind of the seats and stuff, and I think it’s between 80 to 100 people at any given moment for two hours. And I thought, I mean that’s really strong. That’s strong; I go to conferences where there’s 3,000 people, and that many people show up to my talk at a conference with the many tracks and it divides people up. We were at a conference, a good size conference, it was a couple hundred people, I think 250 is what they said, and we had more than a third of the crowd at any given moment.
Patrick: So, you know, that’s pretty strong. Plus we had the participation online, Dave said we had, I think, between like 200 and 400 people in total check in online on sitepoint.com/podcast and USTREAM, so, you know, we had this great audience just being there and participation and listening and it was kind of, I don’t know, to me it was little surreal to be up there sitting and talking on the Podcast. But not just doing it right now like I am in front of my monitors with Audacity running in front of me, but in front of actual people.
Brad: Yeah, it certainly was a different experience. And two hours sounds like a long time, but honestly to me it went by very, very quickly, and that’s probably because obviously we had a lot of people, we had a lot of prizes, so we were constantly doing something for two hours. But I was a little concerned that two hours would kind of drag on, and it would get stale very quickly, but I didn’t feel like it did at all. I think it was as fresh at the end as it was at the beginning of the Podcast.
Patrick: And, like I said, we had 11 guests, I’d like to thank them all for joining us; Michael Torbert, Steve Mortiboy, Aaron Brazell, Lisa Sabin-Wilson, Brandon Eley, Dave Moyer, Jeff Chandler, Gregory Ng, Wayne Sutton, Nathan Rice, and Cory Miller. And all of them were there, were participating and helped us promote the show, so it was great to have all the guests. And I mention that not only to throw their names out there, but to say they were going to be releasing interview shows of all those interviews, in case you missed it, they’re going to be released as podcasts here over the next probably two months we’re going to be releasing those in bite sizes probably grouping two together, two or three together, and then releasing those as shows here so you can listen in to what they had to say in person.
And also we’d like to say thank you to SitePoint, Wiley, Amacom, iThemes, Headway Themes, Studio Press, and Semper Fi Web Design/All-In-One SEO Plug-In for providing the prizes to us that we gave away, including Brad’s book Professional WordPress.
Patrick: (laughs) It’s not a plug if I say it, but yeah, so just thank you to everyone who helped us put it together. Thank you to Dave Moyer again for really spearheading the technology, providing mics for us, and being there for a good three hours; to put it together really we got there an hour in advance and we worked for that hour like solid. And then we sat down and did the show.
Brad: And the plan was to eat while we were setting up, and that certainly didn’t happen. Our meals were in the back of the room when we were done.
Patrick: Yeah, to set the scene, the Podcast was from 1:00-3:00, lunch was from 12:00-1:00. So we decided to work from 12:00 to 1:00 to set all the stuff up and we were gonna eat, but that didn’t happen; we worked solid to get just everything running, and then we ended up eating lunch at I believe it was probably 3:30, let’s say, we got out to eat lunch. We went to, uh, where did we go, the sub place?
Patrick: No, no it wasn’t, it was, um, it wasn’t Quiznos, what the heck was it? It was a sub place.
Brad: Oh, Jimmy John’s.
Patrick: Yeah, Jimmy John’s. We went to Jimmy John’s; we had some lunch, and took a rest.
Well, once again, thank you to Steve Mortiboy, Michael Torbert, and Craig Tuller for having us at WordCamp Raleigh, it was a great experience, and hopefully we will be back next year.
So we’ve talked about the Podcast, let’s talk about me and Brad both presented at the conference, we both gave presentations, actually Brad gave his on the morning of the first day before the Podcast; I gave mine the next morning. So we were kind of the early morning people setting the tone, right, for the conference. Brad you spoke about custom taxonomies in WordPress; can you talk about your presentation and how it went?
Brad: Yes, yeah, it went really well. Like you said, Patrick, I was first on in the morning, so it’s always fun kind of being the first presenter at any conference because everyone’s —
Patrick: You got to bed early.
Brad: Yeah, I think I did (laughs), early for a conference, let’s put it that way. No, it went really well. My presentation was Custom Post Types and Taxonomies in WordPress, which is a little more developer heavy of a topic, but I wanted to — it’s a very exciting feature, so if you haven’t kind of dived into that area of WordPress, and you do build sites with WordPress or are getting into it, it’s certainly something to check out. But it went really well, you know, there was a little technical difficulty at first, but we worked through it and got through the presentation and got some great questions and conversations going, and I heard good feedback from it. So, yeah, it went well.
Patrick: Yeah, I was actually at your presentation, I think I sat next to Stephan, actually, we were both there to support our friend, and I’ll bring that up later about supporting friends, but I really enjoyed your presentation. I enjoyed — I learned things, like I didn’t know that about WordPress that, for example, what we’re talking about is essentially WordPress has always been CMS in my eyes. I use it to power my book site I have for two, three years. It’s not a blog it’s just a static website for my book. The custom taxonomies thing and how that all works is really changing WordPress to work more like a CMS, and giving you just the flexibility to change things like the fields in the post to make it more or less like a blog post and more like a piece of static content that is labeled differently, that appears differently on your site, and yet using the same WordPress-powered features, the admin area, and all those good things that we love about WordPress, but just having it look more like a static site or any site, really, that you’d like it to look like, right, Brad?
Brad: Yeah, exactly. I mean basically there’s, when we talk about post types, there’s a couple default post types in WordPress, and the most common ones are posts and pages that we’re all familiar with; you can create a page, you can create a post. Well now, actually, since 2.9 they’ve created it where you can define your own post types. But the real exciting part is in 3.0 you can create a post type and it will automatically add that post type to a menu. So a simple example, say you want to start a website for a car dealer, you could define an automobile or cars post type and it would show up right under Posts or Pages as a whole separate menu item; you can click add car and you can add a new car. It would have all of the functionality of a post or a page but it would be treated separately. So, yeah, it really is kind of taking WordPress into that true CMS area. It’s really exciting stuff, and WordPress 3.0 is really going to put this in the public eye. So that’s kind of what I focused on during my presentation. And I also have my slides are online, as I’m sure yours are as well, Patrick, so we’ll be sure to put those in the show notes as well, the link to our slides.
Patrick: Yeah, and you have released a plug-in that helps make this happen, right Brad?
Brad: Yeah, so the plug-in’s called Custom Post Type UI, and if you search it it’s in the official WordPress plug-in directory. And basically right now post types you have to create them using, you know, you call functions in PHP, so basically what this plug-in does is allow you to create post types without coding, without touching code. A lot of people just aren’t comfortable going into your functions file and doing PHP code. So basically the plug-in allows you to do it just by filling out a simple form and then clicking create post type or create taxonomy. So you kind of get a little taste of how it works and play with it. Again, it’s built for 3.0 which should be releasing any time now, so.
Patrick: Excellent. Well, my presentation was on Building Community Around Your WordPress Blog. Basically I focused on creating community around your blog in three key areas. The first is the default community you have built in; email, comments, and those sorts of things that you can — that you have right now that you’re building community with. The second part of that is community decentralized, which is what I call it. It’s basically the social web outside of your site. So when you have a Twitter account for your blog or that you feed posts into or that you interact with readers on, that’s community that’s outside of your site and that you’re developing. That’s for Facebook, that’s for — on any outside social network, forums that you don’t own, etcetera. And then the third part is cultivating community deeper on your own site, like having your own forums, like installing BuddyPress over your WordPress installation and having this deeper, richer community that you host, that you’re responsible for. And I just kind of walked through those three phases of community, and I mean I thought it went okay, I thought it went well. And Brad couldn’t come because he was — he actually ended up speaking at the very same time. Stephan was there in spirit, I think, right Stephan?
Stephan: Oh, yeah, yeah, totally.
Patrick: (laughs) Which is code for not there at all.
Brad: No, actually Patrick, yeah, I — on the second day they had a speaker, his wife was sick and he had to drop out at the last minute, so they pulled a few of us for Q&A, so unfortunately I was opposite Patrick. However, I flew out to Chicago last weekend and I made sure to — the WordPress Tavern actually released your interview, so I made sure to give it a listen. So I did actually hear your interview, or your presentation, I thought you did a really good job. It was very informative, so I think anyone that hadn’t heard it should definitely check it out, and I’m assuming we’re going to add it into the Podcast so everybody can listen to it as well.
Patrick: Yeah, we’ll throw a link to that in the show notes. And thanks, Brad, for the kind words. Stephan has not listened to the interview so he has no words.
Patrick: I’m just kidding.
Stephan: I got nothing to say.
Patrick: So, our stuff out of the way, what were some of the other highlights, let’s say, of the event, maybe not just the programming, it can be the programming, but the highlights of the event in general for you guys, Stephan?
Stephan: I think it’s always, you know, with every conference is networking, meeting people that you — that are doing similar things that you are or doing cool things that you don’t know about, and getting to meet them. So I got to meet some people and see people I had already met before, Wayne Sutton, and Brandon; but also meeting new people that were doing cool things with WordPress and had some cool ideas. The WP Tavern guy, I got to meet him, what’s his name?
Brad: Jeff Chandler.
Patrick: Jeff Chandler.
Stephan: He’s pretty awesome. He’s hilarious. And just meeting people like that was — it was a blast. And I think that was a highlight for me was just kind of standing around talking to people.
Patrick: Was there any talk — were there any talks or presentations that you were at that were standout let’s say?
Stephan: I think Dave Moyer, I mean the guy for being 17 he’s really inspirational and really gets you fired up to want to succeed. And his talk was really good. I thought he did a really good job and it was very informative. So I really liked that one; that one stood out the most.
Patrick: Yeah, Dave gave a talk called Breaking the Trust Barrier; Establishing Personal and Professional Brand or Liability. And I agree it was definitely a highlight for me as well. He spoke about how to basically establish yourself online trust-wise, how to be a trustworthy person, have people trust you, and what goes along with that.
Stephan: Yep, it was good.
Patrick: What about you, Brad, highlights of the event, what stood out for you?
Brad: Yeah, definitely along with what Stephan said, networking, any conference I go to I really, you know, I enjoy the networking, I meet like he said, meet people or you see people you know again, and then you always meet new people. It was great to finally meet both of you. It was also great to finally meet Brandon as well. So this was actually the first time that I can think, no, I take that back, it’s the second time I’d met some people from SitePoint, but we’ve known each other for years now, and to finally put a face to you guys was awesome. So, definitely the networking and I thought the conference was awesome. The venue was perfect and the fact that most people stayed at the hotel where the venue was at I thought really helped, because a lot of times when you go to conferences in a bigger city like New York or Chicago or L.A., or something like that, everybody’s really segmented and spread out. So you don’t get kind of these larger groups of people where you might have a conversation with someone you never would have hung out with that night just because you’re all at the same place. So I felt like that really kind of added to the networking.
But yeah, I mean overall they did a great job organizing; I think all the presentations sounded like they all went really well. So yeah, it definitely was a great time.
Patrick: Yeah, I agree with what you said about being at the hotel. This was actually, you know, I’ve been to — I haven’t been to tons of conferences, but I’ve been to maybe 12, 13 odd conferences, and this is really, well, I did stay, there was a conference that was at Sea World and I stayed at the Renaissance, and if you’ve ever been to Sea World you know that’s right across the street, so that’s kind of like it. But this is like maybe the first conference I’ve ever stayed at where the event was actually held in the same building, it was in the hotel. And this definitely does help to get people together, let’s say, because most of the people like you say were staying there, especially people who came from out of town. Even some locals were staying at the hotel; even if they may be within ten, twenty, thirty minutes of the venue. So that was a first time for me. It was good not to have to take some sort of transportation to get there or walk, and yeah, I think that definitely does inspire maybe a greater sense of community.
Well, as far as my highlights go, you know, obviously I agree the networking thing it’s always major to me, that’s always the big thing, meeting Brad for the first time, meeting you for the first time, it was a highlight for me, and one of the bigger highlights of the event. I also, I always love hanging out with people that I’ve already met and have known for a long time like Brandon Eley, Wayne Sutton, Stephan; and also just to meet new people in general that I’ve known. I’ve talked to Jeff Chandler obviously for a while, first time meeting him, same with Dave Moyer, first time meeting him. And I hung out also with Steve Mortiboy, it was great to talk with him, one of the co-organizers of the event and meet Michael and Craig. A little more brief than Steve, but just to talk and meet new people is always a great thing.
Presentation-wise, all the presentations I went to I enjoyed. And the first one was really Brad’s presentation about custom taxonomies and WordCamp, that was followed by Gregory Ng who did a presentation called I want To Be A Video Blogger, you know, Greg’s just a smart guy and does a pretty popular video blog show called Freezer Burns. We had them on the show, that interview will be out in the coming weeks or months, but just a great session on how to be a video blogger if you want to get into that field or have your own show. The next presentation I went to was Brandon Ealy with Five Tactics Bloggers Should Learn from Online Marketers; another smart presentation. And I also went to Dave’s with Stephan, and I don’t know if Brad was at that one also, but all four of those presentations were very good presentations that I enjoyed. And it’s definitely hat’s off to the organizers for putting together a conference like this that’s not just — people think of camp maybe, and they think of the event where you all show up and write what you want on a board and get together; that’s not a bad thing, that’s a great thing, too, but I mean this event definitely had time into it, and a great caliber of speakers.
Well, I think we’ve talked about it as much as we wish to talk about it, so we are going to end the show, or our last feature will be interviews with two of the three co-organizers of WordCamp Raleigh. These were recorded during the live SitePoint Podcast; the interviews are with Steve Mortiboy and Michael Torbert. Steve Mortiboy was one of the co-organizers of WordCamp Raleigh and also is the project manager at Semper Fi Design. Michael Torbert, also a co-organizer of WordCamp Raleigh is the Senior WordPress Developer at Semper Fi Web Design as well as the author of the All in One SEO Pack, a premium plug-in for WordPress that helps with your search engine optimization.
Patrick (Live):Steve Mortiboy is — I hope I’m saying your name right, Steve; Mortiboy is the co-organizer of WordCamp Raleigh and also the Project Manager at Semper Fi Web Design. Steve, welcome to the show.
Steve: Thank you, Patrick.
Patrick: Thanks for having us. Yeah, can you lead us off, Stephan?
Stephan: What part of the event were you focused on organizing?
Steve: I have 25 years’ background in project management, so I was asked by Michael to come in and help, to basically project manage the whole thing. So although I don’t have any event coordination experience, my project management experience was a good study for that.
Stephan: So along those lines, there’s already been a WordCamp RU, so why the WordCamp Raleigh?
Steve: We felt that as we run a very, very popular WordPress Meetup Group here in Raleigh with over 130 members we have monthly meetups where we have very, very good turnouts. We felt that we wanted to do something bigger. We had plans to kind of try and do something with all of our Meetup members and try and get some of the best speakers that we could from around the WordPress world here to Raleigh and speak to them.
Patrick: Okay. If you had to guess, what percentage of attendees today come from outside North Carolina?
Steve: We have at last check about 15 percent from outside of North Carolina, 85 percent from all over the Carolinas. And a very high percentage from the east coast, which is what we kind of expected.
Patrick: So in your opinion what makes WordCamp Raleigh stand out among other WordCamps? Don’t be too competitive (laughs).
Brad: You can be mean.
Steve: We went to Boston for WordCamp Boston back in January I think it was, and I was exceptionally impressed with that particular WordCamp, the organizers did a fantastic job there, and we wanted to use that as a blueprint for this WordCamp, and we’ve done that, and that’s why it’s been so successful.
Patrick: Have things gone according to plan so far today? We’re only halfway into the first day of probably a day and a half, so.
Steve: There’s been a couple of little hitches but it’s kind of what you expect, so that’s par for the course, but everything is running very smoothly and all the guests I’ve spoken to are having a great time.
Patrick: So how did you get involved with WordPress? How long have you been using it?
Steve: You know, I’ve only been using WordPress since January, although Michael Torbert had been talking to me for two years I think now saying, Steve, you need to use WordPress, Steve, you need to use WordPress. I finally relented after two years; I think he was refusing to buy me another beer unless I used WordPress.
Patrick: That’s quite a threat from what I understand about you from a story last night; that’s quite a threat.
Steve: Thank you. It’s all true of course. But, yeah, it’s very addictive. I have over ten sites now; I’ve got sites that are running Beta 2 of 3.0 and I love it, it’s great.
Patrick: So what’s your background as far as web development and blog software or just running websites in general before January?
Stephan: (laughs) Really?
Steve: I managed, as operations manager I manage teams of engineers who basically did that for me. So I had some understanding. But for the last four and a half years I’ve been managing Java development, and of enterprise software. So this was something very new to me.
Patrick: Something about engineers we spoke about last night, all of them needing a certain beverage to function.
Well, Steve thanks for coming on. Thanks for allowing us to be here. Where can people find you online?
Patrick: Excellent, thanks Steve.
Stephan: Thank you.
Patrick: So we’ll kick right in to our second guest of the day which is Michael Torbert, also co-organizer of WordCamp Raleigh. He is the Senior WordPress Developer for Semper Fi Web Design and the author of the All In One SEO Pack. Welcome to your seat at our table and welcome to the show.
Michael: Thank you, guys.
Brad: Hey Michael. So, how many attendees registered for WordCamp Raleigh?
Michael: 250, 300 maybe, somewhere around in there.
Brad: Did you actually end up selling out?
Michael: Yes, we actually went a little bit over, we said we would not, we did.
Patrick: Was planning the WordCamp more than you thought it would be? Was it harder than you expected?
Michael: Yes, fortunately there were a number of us that helped out a lot. Steve was incredible; if he were getting paid I would say he’s not getting paid enough, but he’s not getting paid at all, so (laughs). Craig, Marisa, Gemma, there’s an endless list of volunteers and people who’ve helped out and it’s been quite a bit and there are a number of other organizers in here as well, so they know, but it’s been great.
Computer voice: Virus database has been updated.
Patrick: (laughs) Brad’s virus database has been updated.
Brad: Solve all security.
Stephan: What’s been the most challenging aspect of organizing WordCamp Raleigh for you?
Michael: Oh, gosh, just trying to coordinate all the speakers, sponsors, volunteers, all the people involved; they are a lot of people involved, attendees, sponsors, just everybody trying to accommodate what everybody needs, what we need. Well, like I say, there’s been a lot of help; a lot of people have people have put in a lot of time and effort.
Brad: And do you plan on doing it again?
Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Brad: Should I ask you again after tomorrow (laughter)
Patrick: Or a month from now? So tell us about the All In One SEO Pack.
Michael: So All in One SEO Pack is a plug-in for WordPress. It will help you to optimize your WordPress site for SEO purposes to help get found on Google. There is a professional version that you can buy, although the free version is fully functional, it just removes the ads; so it’s mainly for if you set up sites for clients and don’t want the ads for your clients to see, it’s mainly for people like that. The free version is fully functional, currently the most popular plug-in, so I guess some people think it works.
Brad: Only two million (laughter).
Patrick: Speaking of the plug-in, do you have a question for Michael? The first person who has a question wins a copy of the All In One SEO Pack Plug-in. Anyone?
Stephan: There’s one right there on the end.
Patrick: You over there.
Audience Member: First question, what’s your middle name?
Patrick: (laughter) No, no, no, okay, re-qualify that; first question with something to do with something here. Brandon?
Brandon: Can you explain the practical applications of the plug-in?
Patrick: Good one.
Michael: Anything in particular or just something random?
Audience Member: (inaudible)
Michael: I guess the main thing, well, there are a couple of main things, one of the biggest things would be being able to have full control over your title, the title tag for the source code that Google sees as your title. Depending on the way you have your WordPress blog set up you can actually have a number of different titles, and in fact, for pages you can have — it would take a while to explain the technical aspects of all of it, but four different title sections for pages that Google can see all of them, and people, of course, because people need to click on what they see as well. Does that make sense?
Audience Member: (inaudible)
Michael: Yes, you have full control over your titles. And if you find somewhere where you don’t, tell me and I’ll put it in there.
Audience Member: Thank you.
Patrick: Well, where can people find you online, Michael?
Patrick: Excellent, thanks for joining us today.
Michael: Thank you. Thanks for having us here too.
Patrick: Well, it was great to have them on. And now let’s go around the table and close out this episode of the SitePoint podcast.
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