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SitePoint Podcast #135: WordPress Anthology with Raena and Mick

Louis Simoneau

Episode 135 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week our regular interview host Louis Simoneau (@rssaddict) interviews Raena Jackson-Armitage (@raena) and Mick Olinik (FBmick.com) the authors of the upcoming SitePoint book WordPress Anthology.

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You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:

  • SitePoint Podcast #135: WordPress Anthology with Raena Jackson-Armitage and Mick Olinik (MP3, 27:18, 26.2MB)

Episode Summary

Louis, Raena and Mick discuss the WordPress community with all it’s diversity, the advances in WordPress and how the book ties into those.

Browse the full list of links referenced in the show at http://delicious.com/sitepointpodcast/135.

Interview Transcript

Louis: Hello and welcome to another episode of the SitePoint Podcast. So today with me on the show we’ve got the two authors of SitePoint’s upcoming WordPress book, Raena Jackson-Armitage, hi Raena.

Raena: Hi!

Louis: And Mick Olinik; hi, Mick.

Mick: Hi!

Louis: A little bit different for the show today, you might be able to tell from the sound of the audio is that we’re all in one room which is a great oddity for the SitePoint Podcast since I find myself isolated from the rest of the world in Australia. Mick is down here for a couple of days.

Mick: Sure am.

Louis: How long you been in the country?

Mick: I’ve been in the country now for probably about two days; it’s kind of a little bit wavy just because the jetlag trips everything out.

Louis: Right, so you’re still feeling like it’s the middle of the night.

Mick: A little bit. Actually it’s starting to get a little bit more normal now, but you know.

Raena: When we turned on the classy Melbourne weather for you as well (laughter).

Mick: I really appreciate that, thank you.

Raena: You’re welcome.

Louis: As always that’s how it goes here. Right, so I wanted to have you guys on the show, you’ve been hard at work over the last few months putting together this new WordPress book, but just to sort of talk about WordPress in general, the community and how things are going, obviously WordPress has been on a massive run these past few years, it’s gotten to the point where I still remember the days of WordPress when it was a big thing when people would talk about WordPress and they’d mention, “Oh, such and such a site is powered by WordPress,” that means it’s mainstream, it’s cool, you can use it. And now nobody even bothers anymore because everything runs on WordPress.

Raena: In fact, didn’t we hear the other day that it now powers 16% or something of the Internet?

Louis: That sounds totally possible, oh, there was something like —

Raena: We need to check that number.

Louis: It had to do with new domains I think, and someone came up with of the new websites that had come on line in the past year, something like 22% or 25% or something crazy.

Raena: Wow.

Mick: Overall I think it’s 15% of all of the websites that are running on the Web in the world.

Raena: That’s pretty amazing.

Louis: Pretty amazing. So you guys have been working, it’s pretty much wrapped now, the new book. Before we get into talking about the book and about WordPress more in general, maybe just a bit of background about you guys, how you got into WordPress and what excites you about the Web and how long you’ve been working in the industry, that sort of thing.

Mick: Sure. I’ve been working in the industry for, oh, let’s see, I started in late ’96, I got into WordPress five years ago pretty much because I was looking for a content management system that really worked well, and one of the nice things about WordPress was that it’s so modular, it’s flexible, it’s easy, it’s not proprietary at all, so it attracted me right away; I’d been using all sorts of, you know, pretty much everything else that I could get my hands on with Mambo way back in the day.

Louis: You just dated yourself (laughter).

Mick: I did just date myself, absolutely. But I found WordPress and I got into it and it’s just flexible as all sin, and once I realized how flexible it was and how much work I didn’t have to do anymore then I just started doing all my stuff on it.

Raena: Well, I’m a bit of a content management junkie, I guess. I think I got into WordPress about the same time as I think a lot of people started getting into it when the whole controversy with MovableType’s licensing model became a thing and no one was really sure is it open source, is it free, can I use it, how much do I have to pay, rah, rah, rah. And I guess like a lot of us we’d all sort of been aware of WordPress before then, but it was at that time we actually started thinking well, gee, this isn’t as free as we thought maybe. I mean obviously it’s all different now but I guess that was when I first started looking hard at WordPress and trying to figure out how it all worked, and, of course, that’s how I started learning about PHP as well; I’d never really thought about it before then, so.

Louis: You guys both work pretty much exclusively with WordPress for client sites now?

Mick: All I work with at this point, yeah.

Raena: I work with a few different things, but WordPress I think is the one that I find is the most easy and friendly for, well, for myself but also for the users.

Mick: Sure. Well, it’s the most useful for about 90% of all the websites out there. If it’s a real specialized type of a website obviously WordPress sometimes isn’t necessarily the platform for you, but it’s very specialized reasons why you wouldn’t want to use it. For instance, you know, like a forum system or something like that, you’ll probably going to want to use something like Vbulletin or something a little bit more robust or advanced card systems.

Louis: Yeah. So, as we’re speaking, WordPress 3.3 is currently in beta; have you guys had a chance to play around with it a little bit?

Mick: A little bit, yeah, absolutely. There’s some cool new features there in 3.3, there’s help functionality which I think 3.3’s really all about just helping the user use the —

Raena: It’s really refining that whole sort of user experience, I think, which is really important.

Mick: Absolutely.

Louis: I noticed there was a couple of a bit more cutting edge web features in there, they’ve sort of made the dashboard more adaptive to screen size which is a cool new thing.

Raena: I’ve got to say I haven’t changed my screen size since upgrading (laughter), so I’m aware that it happened, I’m sure it looks great.

Mick: Yeah, I believe it’s useful for devices, iPads and things like that, you know, but I haven’t really played with that aspect too much to be honest with you.

Raena: Well, I finally bought an iPad and —

Mick: Did you?

Raena: Yeah, and I’ve got to say the dashboard looks pretty good in it.

Mick: Cool.

Raena: Looks pretty good.

Louis: That’s great. But they haven’t done that with the default theme yet, so the default theme hasn’t been made responsive, but I imagine that’s a direction they might be going in the near future.

Raena: Actually I was just looking at a blog with 2011 on my iPhone the tram on the way here, and it does seem to be doing a bit of that, it reduces the size of the banner, so if you’re familiar with 2011 it’s got a big, wide, lovely colorful banner photo, it’s been trimmed down, good to look into it and see how — I mean it’s a pretty simple sort of theme to begin with, it sort of reduces the number of columns in the footer as well, so there are three columns in the footer, you can widgetize them and so on, and in the iPhone they sort of stack on top of each other, so it’s looking pretty good, I think it does a really nice job. It’s a pretty simple theme, though, it’s not like there was a lot of work to do to make it mobile friendly, but a great job.

Louis: Whenever you use an open source platform I find there’s always sort of like one feature that you keep clamoring for the inclusion of. Do you guys have like a pet feature that hasn’t been included in WordPress yet?

Raena: Good question.

Mick: That is a good question.

Louis: Man, you guys are 100% satisfied with WordPress, there’s nothing (laughs).

Mick: No. No, no, no, no, no.

Raena: It’s the bomb (laughter).

Mick: No, you know what, the media manager needs some work yet, the image gallery shortcode is like the most under-utilized WordPress feature out there, alright, it’s the only built in shortcode that WordPress rolls out, and actually I was at WordCamp a couple months ago where I heard one of the core developers talking about the changes that they really wanted to see made in the coming year, and everything that he was talking about revolved around the media manager and the image galleries and shortcode and integrating that a little bit more into making that a more useful feature for users, and frankly I’d like to see that as well, you know, there’s a lot of things that you could do with that.

Raena: Make it a bit smoother perhaps.

Mick: Yeah, well, make it more obvious, frankly, for developers to even know. Look, I’ve talked to so many different really seasoned developers that have no idea that the gallery shortcode’s even out there. It’s like well how do you put a gallery in, and everybody’s like we’ll used this plugin. You do realize that you don’t actually need a plugin to put a gallery in.

Raena: Not anymore.

Mick: You haven’t for quite some time really, actually.

Raena: Ages.

Mick: You know, and so that’s a piece of functionality I think that — I really think that they will end up kind of bolstering out a little bit, that and multisite, you know, multisite is —

Louis: Yeah.

Raena: Geez, it’s really coming leaps and bounds about how easy it is to actually do multisite a bit better, it could be improved but, geez, it was so much more difficult in the past to get that working, my good God.

Mick: Yeah, it’s pretty wild. But even the changes that they’re making to multisite, I mean you know every time they come out with — you know, 3.3 comes out I can’t wait to — I have not played with multisite in 3.3 yet, and I’m really looking forward to playing with multisite in 3.3 just because of the changes that have happened between like 3.1 and 3.2 are ridiculous.

Louis: Right. It’s not something you see often touted on the feature lists of any of these point releases. I remember when 3.0 came out it was a big thing that multisite was a core feature now.

Mick: Yeah, totally.

Louis: But people don’t seem to focus as much on the incremental improvements on that side of things.

Mick: It’s usually like a bullet point, “Hey, by the way, we worked on multisite,” (laughter) moving on, you know, but for those of us that do a lot of multisite work they’re actually making some really significant changes with every release that comes out.

Raena: Yeah. And a really big theme of the book is that you don’t just use WordPress now for blogging, and what you see a lot of the improvements in the last few releases I think is away from that core sort of thing of ‘ooh, posts and pages’ and more about encouraging using it for things that are not just blogging, so things like the gallery system or improvements to the media manager make it a little easier to actually use it as a fully fledged CMS which it absolutely can do.

Louis: Yeah, prior to 3.0, if I’m not mistaken, you didn’t really have any control over the menus without actually hard coding them in the themes, or was that earlier, was that 2.8 or 2.9?

Mick: No, that was 3.0.

Louis: Yeah. I remember I still have WordPress sites out there that I’ve coded for people that, you know, have hard-coded menu items in the theme, and that’s such a fundamental thing if you’re using it for anything other than a blog that just has sort of a list of categories and an about me page; it’s crucial to be able to play around with the menus and add additional pages.

Mick: And the post-types feature that WordPress added, too, in 3.0 is huge.

Raena: Fantastic.

Mick: I mean talk about, you know, that’s really just a massive thing that made it more of a full fledged CMS really.

Raena: Yeah, and I think we’re still sort of, in the community, still sort of exploring all the different sorts of things that we can do with it, you know, a lot of people go, ah, you mean I could have a post with a description in it, oh, you can do even better still (laughter), amazing.

Mick: All sorts of things you can do actually, you know.

Raena: Yeah, yeah, it’s, you know, we’re just sort of starting to make better use of that and it’s a really exciting time for WordPress users.

Louis: Yeah, it’s interesting from the point of view of a community where the WordPress community is particular in the sense that WordPress sort of as a consequence of it being so easy to use has attracted a wide range of people, you’re talking about the gallery shortcode, people don’t know that it’s there, talking about all this stuff that the developer core are really excited about but that maybe people don’t really glom onto right away.

Mick: Exactly. And that’s a direct reflection of how easy the system is to use.

Raena: Exactly.

Mick: Because it’s so simple, you know, you’ve got all these WordCamps and sometimes you see a WordCamp it’s a really fascinating slice of exactly who’s in the WordPress community, and it’s interesting to kind of see who those people really are because if you go to a lot of other, you know, if you check out a lot of other development communities you’ll see that it’s a lot more techie, a lot I don’t want to say smarter, that’s the wrong word (laughter).

Raena: There’s a higher expectation of experience.

Louis: And our audience just dropped off (laughter).

Mick: Yeah, gosh, that’s bad.

Louis: Apologies to all the designers out there.

Mick: No, but (laughter) — yeah, but what it is it’s interesting because a lot of times you’ll go to WordCamp and they’ll have three tracks; they’ll have the beginner, the intermediate and the advanced track, and it’s fascinating to see who fills up each room because you’ll see everybody there from the shop development team or something like that to, you know, just some guys running a podcast who are doing everything off dot com blogs not self-hosted.

Louis: Yeah.

Mick: So it’s a really — it’s a wide range of folks.

Louis: So you briefly mentioned, Raena, a little bit back the book, so we haven’t talked about that at all yet, so you guys want to talk about sort of a bit what the focus of this book is? So we did a WordPress book fairly recently which was all about themes.

Raena: That’s right.

Louis: And it was a more design area book, so what’s the focus of this one?

Raena: Well, this one, whereas the previous book was a little bit more sort of focused towards people who just wanted to get up and running really quickly with WordPress themes using a framework, this is more for people who want to kind of dig in a little more. And it’s an anthology style of book, so if you’ve ever read any of the book like the PHP Anthology, and so on, where it’s just full of interesting little nuggets and solutions to things, this is what we’re looking at here hopefully with the WordPress book, and it’s the WordPress Anthology (laughter) was the title.

Louis: It’s worthy dropping the title in there.

Raena: It’s worth dumping the title in there at some stage, isn’t it? Yeah, so we’ve really sort of aimed more to practical sort of code-related solutions to things rather than worrying so much about up and running quickly, it’s more about diving in a bit deeper.

Mick: Yeah, it basically covers the major components of really everything that is WordPress, and then towards the end of the book it ends up being kind of almost like essays that talk about the different aspects of what’s out there, you know, multisite imaging galleries, SEO, what it is, why WordPress is good for it, what the myths are.

Raena: Why you should care.

Mick: And why you’re probably thinking about it the wrong way, that sort of thing.

Louis: So, say maybe a more general purpose manual for anyone who’s either using WordPress or developing for WordPress.

Mick: You know if you ran a college course on WordPress you could use this as your textbook.

Louis: Right.

Mick: I mean that’s really what it comes down to, it starts off real basic and it goes real advanced (laughter), that’s kind of it.

Raena: At the same time, though, I think once you’re at a certain level you’d be able to pick up this book and flip to any page and find something that you can use.

Mick: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Raena: And use it as a bit of a reference at the end hopefully.

Louis: That’s awesome. What’s your favorite part; what was your highlight chapter or tidbit or tip?

Raena: I think — I worked on the chapter about post types, and that was actually just to get back to what we were talking about with people not realizing, and it took a bit of encouragement, I think for Mick as well, and from Tom the technical editor to sort of really think a bit harder about the sorts of different types of posts, and you know really sort of get myself out of that whole blog-y sort of headspace. I do do a lot of work with, you know, other content management systems and it’s pretty much all page focused all the time, so to kind of really break yourself out of that mould I think was heaps fun for me, a good challenge, and learn a few things.

Louis: Right, so what’s an example of a custom post type that is breaking out of that?

Raena: As an example from the book we were talking about using events, so a site about a conference and in the conference you can have events, and if you’ve looked at a conference site you know you’ve generally got a page about a speaker or what have you, but part of the discipline of content management is to try and represent content as a type of data rather than thinking about it in a page sort of sense to say, right, we have a piece of content that represents a speaker, we have a piece of content that represents an event or a venue or a track, and to give it those sort of data structures there, so when you’re thinking about a session you’re not just saying, oh, here’s a bunch of stuff you can just shove in whatever; you’ve got dates and times for things starting, you’ve durations, you’ve got a venue, you’ve got an abstract, you might have some files associated with it so you can really sort of build on it that way. That gives you as well when you’re working in a situation where you have a lot of users entering content and you don’t want to have to teach them how to do, you know, layout or entering divs in the WYSIWYG editor; in WordPress whatever it makes it so much easier for them to just fill in the boxes and out comes a beautiful layout, you know, that when you manage all things–

Louis: And I think anyone who’s done any kind of content management will have that experience where you’re like, oh, if you want to put an event in you just go to the HTML view and you put div class event and then you follow this structure and that’ll look like what I want it to look like.

Raena: Exactly. And that’s the sort of work that I do at the moment, so I’m working in the higher education sector and you sort of say to people, oh, it’s real easy, you know, you want to do this on your page, well, you make a div in here and a div in there and you do all these classes and everything and you know they call back five minutes later going, what? (Laughter) So, exactly.

Louis: Whereas if the software you’re using gives you those options up front to build these options for people without necessarily doing a ton of development work, obviously if you do it custom you can do that, but that’s no always an option.

Raena: Absolutely right, absolutely right. And it’s a peculiarity of I think really enterprise class CMS’ that let you do that as opposed to, you know, a blogging system that sort of let’s you hack it in, and you know it’s a testament to the maturity I think of WordPress now. I remember we used to do that stuff with custom fields and nasty template hacks, and now we can actually do it in a really intuitive way.

Louis: How does WordPress handle — and this is something I’ve come across and you briefly mentioned it when you were referring to events and speakers; so the relationships between custom post types, that’s always sort of an obstacle I’ve run into with CMS’ when I find, you know, working with things like Rails where I’m building the whole thing myself, a bit more flexibility with regards to that and I definitely had issues working with Drupal on that in the past. So I wondered if there’s anything in the custom post type functionality in WordPress that specifically handles that.

Mick: Are you talking about like taxonomies and different ways to group different types of content?

Louis: I guess more of the idea that each event has a speaker, right, and that speaker’s another content type, so can I put a field on my event that is the speaker and that actually points to the other –?

Mick: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Raena: It can refer to other posts.

Mick: Totally. And that actually does — that does get back into the notion of taxonomies and how WordPress handles taxonomies, and there’s a whole chapter on that in the book too (laughter). But basically you can create different types of — different post types and then have different associations and find how those associations are so you can systematically set them up just in your — either your functions.php file or the plugins file which is a whole different topic that we also covered very heavily in the book that I’m actually pretty excited about.

Louis: I’m getting the feeling this thing might be a little bit chunky.

Raena: Basically we’re saying read the book (laughter).

Louis: Cool. And so this all started by me asking what your pet chapter was or what your pet tip and tricks, so Mick, do you have an answer for that?

Mick: Yeah, I got a pet tip and trick. My pet chapter is probably the localization chapter just because I’m really big on globalization and making things easier for everybody to use, but the thing that I’m really excited about that — I deal with a lot of developers that run into this problem where they port over old websites that, you know, people go, “Oh, well I changed the theme and all of a sudden nothing works,” so I try to explain to people the difference between site functionality and display logic and what type of programming belongs where. It’s very common to throw everything into the functions.php file, and that’s fine it works great, but we talk about in the book a lot about creating must-use plugins that just go along with the installation so when you change the theme out it doesn’t break your stuff.

Louis: Yeah.

Mick: And that’s something it’s shocking actually how much people don’t do it. And there’s a good reason why because nobody’s ever told them to, I mean even in WordCamps there’s no real documentation that, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, but I’ve never seen anywhere documentation says, hey, by the way, you might want to think about doing it this way.

Raena: Yeah. And I mean it’s perfectly good common sense after it’s happened to you (laughter).

Mick: After, yes, I mean I don’t blame anybody for it happening the first time, you know.

Raena: But, yeah, it just doesn’t seem to be written down anywhere, and I think because we all for such a long time were in the habit of, oh yeah, we’ll just hack everything into the functions.php because that was pretty much what you did.

Mick: Yeah, totally.

Raena: We’re just trying to get used to doing it a bit better.

Mick: Yeah, the reality is that for years I’m the web developer guy, so I’m the only one that’s qualified to be able to actually change the website, you know, well that’s just not the way it really is anymore, you know, so the web developers actually need to build things more intelligently to insulate their clients from hurting themselves when they go to work on their website, put plugins in and change the theme around and do things like that.

Louis: Yeah, and I think it’s interesting in the case of WordPress, again, because it was this very straightforward block software written in PHP at a time when PHP didn’t have a lot of let’s say structure to it, so that that ethos of packaging things out and encapsulating them and try and build reusable components is still somewhat not there in the WordPress community, and some places it’s totally been taken on board, but given the flexibility that you have with the ability to use plugins for functionality and keep your theme logic in the theme, it’s definitely possible and I guess that’s a big — it’s going to be a learning curve for some in the community.

Mick: Sure.

Raena: Yeah. And I mean you talk to people sometimes, you know, they’re really experienced theme hackers and they can do amazing things in the theme, and have you thought about plugins? Oh, I’ve got no idea how to do that. Yes, you do (laughter).

Mick: Of course you do.

Raena: You absolutely do, it’s super easy; if you know how to do theme hacking to maybe move that stuff into a plugin, and vice versa if you really have to.

Louis: Yeah. Maybe there’s this idea that if I’m the sort of front end guy who hacks a little bit of PHP to get it to do what I want then that belongs in a theme regardless of whether I’m doing sort of content logic that could go in a plugin and that the fear of the plugin is being this is the side of the real serious server side developer.

Mick: Yeah, that’s such a fine line it’s not even funny. You know the other thing I hear from a lot of people, too, is they don’t realize there’s such a thing as must-use plugins, you know, and that’s just another small piece of education that people will choose, I don’t want people to deactivate my plugins, you know, you can set that up so that just can’t happen.

Louis: Right. So, do you want to elaborate on that a bit more, is that something that’s set in the theme?

Mick: It’s a plugin that you actually create a must-use plugin directory in the content, and then you put your plugins directly in there and they’ll just fire it.

Louis: And they’ll just be on.

Mick: They’ll just be on, it’s not something that’s set in the theme, it’s something that you set up in your installation.

Louis: Okay, so any plugin can be if you throw it in that —

Mick: Any plugin. Any plugin can be a must-use plugin anytime.

Louis: Alright. You started off this bit by talking about specifically localization, when you work with WordPress is that something you sort of always keep in the back of your mind?

Mick: When I’m developing, when I’m developing a theme for somebody else to use or when I’m developing a plugin it’s something that I always keep in the back of my mind, I think it’s the best practice available is just to make sure you localize all of your strings so that anybody can use them. You know the reality is when you’re looking at a situation where WordPress is getting — has 15% of the global market share, maybe it was 16, Raena; I’m not sure what the percentage is now, if it’s 16 that’s wild. But, you know, that’s global market share and it’s growing, I mean six months ago it was 14 ½ or 14 ¼, you know, it’s not slowing down, and the reason why you have that is because everybody in the world is using it, you know, so where in the past we’ve kind of been in our insular communities where we’re building individual websites that are specifically for one purpose or we can sell it to somebody down the street, or something like that, or the other side of the country, now all of a sudden everything’s systems and because of how large the market is if whatever you’re developing from a plugin standpoint, let’s say you’re going to make a commercial or whatever you want to do with it, you need to make sure that that stuff can be translated. And it’s a really simple thing to do, you know, it’s just adding hooks around your text strings, it’s a piece of cake, you know. And I think that a lot of people get really, what’s the word –?

Louis: Apprehensive.

Mick: Thank you, yeah, very much (laughter), right there; very apprehensive about doing it because it seems like a really big deal to do, it’s like, wow, man I don’t know German (laughter), I don’t even know if I want Germans using my stuff, you know, this is crazy, I can’t even imagine something that happening, but all you have to do is just wrap the text around the strings.

Raena: You don’t have to know each other, do you?

Mick: Exactly, it’s a piece of cake. And use Poedit or some other type that — some other program to switch up the strings, and all of a sudden just like that you’ve made your — you’ve really followed best practices to make your plugin or theme fully translatable to just about anybody that wants to use it.

Louis: Yeah, and I think it’s worth pointing out that a lot of times one of the other benefits of localization is the ability to change those strings or interface strings even in the original language, so even in English. I remember I was working, you know, found a new site for my personal blog a few months ago, and there was this custom Twitter widget and the button at the bottom was follow us because it was meant for an agency. I’m like all I want to do is make it say follow me which is really straightforward and that’s localization sort of if it had been done in this kind of localizable way, it’s easy for me to change all these strings which are part of the interface and should be on the user’s roll customization more than on the developer’s role of saying, for example, a user interface that’s the number of comments or, you know, reply to a comment; any given theme even if it’s in English might want to change those strings to be the kind of interface you want to present to your users.

Raena: Yeah, I mean localization isn’t just changing a language, it can be changing the dialect or to use a different flavor of all English, shall we say, for a youth site as I would for say a site for seniors or a site for corporate muckity-mucks or whatever, you know what I mean.

Mick: Yeah, look, the more agency that you can give your users to be able to change things, the better off that you’re going to be, you know, at the end of the day that’s what this system’s all about. WordPress is about systems and making things standard; well, that’s really what content management systems are, but that’s what WordPress does it very, very well, and so the more you can do that the more you can make that easy to do the better off you are in the long term.

Louis: Yeah, absolutely.

Raena: Do you have a date for when the book’s out?

Mick: Sometime in November is what I’ve heard.

Raena: It’s going to the printer next week.

Louis: Yeah, that sounds about right. Cool, so very much look forward to that, in the meantime if listeners want to follow either one of you on the Internet or on Twitter do you want to throw some links in here?

Mick: Sure. My personal blog is mickolinik.com, that’s m-i-c-k-o-l-i-n-i-k.com, or you can follow me on Facebook at fbmick.com.

Raena: My website’s at raena.net, r-a-e-n-a.net and I’m the same on Twitter @raena, come and find me.

Louis: Very straightforward. Alright, well, thanks very much for being on the show today, guys, and I really look forward to seeing your book.

Raena: That’s right, November; just in time for Christmas (laughter).

Louis: Alright, thanks guys.

Mick: Thanks, Louis.

Raena: Thank you.

Louis: And thanks for listening to this week’s episode of the SitePoint Podcast. I’d love to hear what you thought about today’s show, so if you have any thoughts or suggestions just go to Sitepoint.com/podcast and you can leave a comment on today’s episode, you can also get any of our previous episodes to download or subscribe to get the show automatically. You can follow SitePoint on Twitter @sitepointdotcom, that’s SitePoint d-o-t-c-o-m, and you can follow me on Twitter @rssaddict. The show this week was produced by Karn Broad and I’m Louis Simoneau, thanks for listening and bye for now.

Theme music by Mike Mella.

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