I have met many ‘experts’ - although they are mostly C/C++ programmers who also create PHP expansion modules using their primary language…
that guy obviously didn’t know what he was talking about… probably a faker… lots of them out there though.
I did not say that someone else did
Yeah obviously, but this is just another reason why big business don’t use PHP because some of their IT manager people think PHP is made by HP or they believe open source is the devil.
it’s because of the supply and demand…
There is much more PHP web developer than any .NET or JAVA web developers.
so PHP people will work for low since there is so many competition.
and usually large company tend to use .NET or Java
Really? So you think that setting, holding and checking data types is easier in PHP than C#? That writing a UI is easier in PHP GTK than Java awt? That explicitly closing a data connection is easier in PHP than VB? That class handling is easier in PHP5 than Java or C#?
You like punishment don’t you
How many PHP developers could hack-it having to allocate memory for their strings? Having to handle pointers correctly? PHP is far easier to do properly, than most languages out there, and it’s incredibly easy to do really badly. It’d be interesting to see your average PHP developer tackle some assembly - Your average C/C++ developer would fare far better I would bet.
The majority of PHP jobs are still in the small business range, while .NET and Java tend to be used more in the large business range. Which technology is more appropriate for the job depends on all sorts of things - PHP can definitely be used for enterprise level applications. As more businesses start using PHP for this, more well-paid positions will be available. For now though, a lot of the PHP jobs require limited programming skills, and the average rate is going to reflect that. As a programmer, I’m not too troubled about low averages though. I don’t need lots of jobs - I just need one.
So basically, you can’t compare PHP-jobs with Java-jobs directly. You have to be a lot more specific than that. I would guess that a software architect, working on an enterprise application, in a middle sized business makes about the same, whether she works with PHP or Java. It’s just that there are relatively less such positions, if you work with PHP.
This is very true. It might be that if you are hired as PHP programmer any other skills are ignored in favor of not having to pay out a higher salary. If someone is hired as a Java programmer that learns or knows PHP then they might get paid more even though after a while their daily work percentage is higher in PHP than in Java.
This is similar to when I was hired as a ASP programmer but found myself doing VB and C++ (writing lots of dlls) programming and not getting paid for having expertise in that area.
BTW, I wish that I had the same tools for PHP as I have for VB.NET. This is one of the things that makes programming a breeze as versus nail biting and tooth pulling. No employer would expect a large application in C++ to be built without using an IDE like Visual Studio. But they seem to think that large scaled applications in PHP can be done in notepad.
Actually, I think part of the reason PHP is not in large line of business applications is because, to do non-trivial things, it is so difficult. Especially to handle them correctly and in a non-hackish manner. So much harder that it makes more sense to hire comparatively more expensive .NET or Java developers to do the job.
Oh, and on a moderatorial note, let’s keep discussing the topic at hand and avoid the personal attacks.
PHP jobs are NOT low paying (in most cases). I’m a PHP developer. Straight out of university (doing Java and C++), i started as a Web Developer in PHP with no experience. I started at 38k CAD (in Canada tech wages are lower in comparisons to states). Someone with no web development experience and no experience in web scripting languages, i think was a nice offer :). Obviously i get paid higher now since i have experience. I have friends who work for small companies making 65k CAD doing full time php development.
People with misconception that PHP is an easy language to work with is totally false. Unlike Java or. NET which are fully supported with great documentation and sorts of small plugins, modules, frameworks, tool and libraries to support the developer, PHP lack in many of those. Constructing an enterprise level application is PHP isn’t an easy task. PHP is only easy when it comes to writing small scripts.
Actually rozner facebook currently have both PHP and Java jobs going (http://www.facebook.com/jobs.php) so all we have to do now is find someone who can apply to find out how much each job is paying
They had me until I saw that they wanted a Computer Science Degree. So even if I got the job it would probably pay less because my degree is in the wrong discipline and older than 5 years. This is one of the things that influences the pay rate also. Unless you go and write a book being a self taught web programmer means taking less than a college graduate with no experience. Even though in most cases the self-taught are much more adept and inventive.
Its because PHP is easy to learn. And most big companies that can afford to pay high salaries would always prefer Java or .Net. Because they would think that with Java/.Net you could build a more robust and extensible application. While most application built with PHP are just simple small to medium projects (just simple view, add, edit, delete) and does not require complex business processes. That is why there’s a lot of PHP freelance projects. In short, the mentality is if you have a simple application just go find PHP developer and save money. While if you have a more complex business application that needs some more enterprise integration to other systems then you need to have an experienced Java/.Net programmer.
Looking at jobs and saleries here in Europe, I’d say that .NET and PHP get equaly paid when the job description is web development. System Designers get higher payment, but then you also would get alot more as Java than .NET developer (and there is alot more Java jobs than .NET).
Java for webdevelopment… Do I need to say more than struts ? it’s evil, and people started using php of this very reason.
ASP.NET is fine, but it’s architecture, and platform dependancy does not scale for ALL solutions, so php has a place in the world. Just as C still have a place in the world with all these higend languages.
It would be ignorant to say that ASP.NET is not pr. default designed against other microsoft solutions, on a windows platform. PHP is designed for open source, on a unix platform. There is a world in difference here…
And a skilled professional php programmer , eventually Zend Certificated, is indeed as skilled as any other webdeveloper no matter of language. I’ve seen ASP.NET “microsoft certificated” people post utterly stupid code too, that’s not just a php thing. TheDailyWTF is not just php code either
So in the end it’s due to project size, or location in the world.
In short, the mentality is if you have a simple application just go find PHP developer and save money. While if you have a more complex business application that needs some more enterprise integration to other systems then you need to have an experienced Java/.Net programmer.
PHP scales very good for enterprise level. Better than .NET sometimes, since it’s cross platform and open-source which allows you to write superfast code in C in case you need it.
Please, stop saying php is not good for enterprise webdevelopment, because it is. And it’s been proven numerous times. High load sites as worldofwarcraft.com had problems with scaling on their JSP/Tomcat setup, MySpace had it’s problems on .NET (CF/.NET)… PHP is as good as the others, and I cannot repeat enough times how important the open source part is, because it gives you oppotunies to solve problems you never would be able to solve in .NET
and…where is rails?
nowhere! because nobody is using it except Ruby fanatics
Face it, RoR and python ain’t mature enough to take PHPs place yet. PHP somewhat took perls, but ruby/python won’t.
I think they mostly will stay as unix scripts, and a few entusiast applications for the unix platforms written in them… on the line with what perl is today
what on earth do you base that generalization on?
That is just like saying people without a college degree are inferior. You just reversed it.
Python is older and more mature than PHP. It also plays a significant role at Google. Moreso than PHP.
I have to agree on with carl on this one…