I don’t know how you guys operate, but I’d never tolerate this from a client. I write super-neat code without any sort of GUI and it validates, but to be treated like a schoolboy with exams and tests? Well it never came up, but I’m certain I’d balk at such requests. Same goes for them breathing down my neck while I work, the only contact I have with my clients is at meetings where we might discuss technical matters, but I’ll never actually do any work with them around.
The only time something similar came up is when an IT manager of one of my clients started telling me how much time should it take me to do each function of their application, like this should take you three hours, this should take you five hours. I simply told my client that I’m not to be treated like their employee and he apologized, gave his IT manager a look and I got the job.
Anyway, my portfolio and references should be enough to convince them I’m the man for the job.
Come to think of it, I’m a bit vague as to who actually does the job. I have a company and my business card says Director and since I don’t get into highly technical matters with my clients, most of them might think I have employees or something.
This is the main problem with the ‘Real World’ setting when it comes to university students. They get taught in such a way that they have to conform to what they’ve been taught or fail, even if they won’t ever use that methodology again. For one of my website assignments I was assigned to create a quick web page for a bar. I knocked one out, wrote a storyboard, made a case study, requirements spec, technical spec, competitive analysis, and loads of other documents, then got told that even though it got a distinction (A+ grade) there wasn’t enough documentation. I’m pretty sure that in a real life setting a lot of people wouldn’t write as much documentation for a site as small as that.
Other than that, I still feel a degree is a good route to go down to look for a good Web Developer. However, I would demand a good portfolio of at least a few sites. If the guy/girl has just come out of university though give them a 2 week period to create 3 websites to show off. They’ll be used to getting the coursework so apply it to the methods of work and I don’t see them getting any problems.
Ok folks. My previous posts were biased towards traditional employment, not independant contract work. I’ll post a more accurate list (one for employer/employee relationships and one for client/contractor relationships) soon.
And for those who took my previous statements out of context, you might want to re-read the posts in their entirety. You’ll notice I actually agree with you on most points, specifically on the one about the degree.
And keep in mind that was written from the POV that there is a presumed employer/employee relationship to be developed, IE, a job applicant being screened for a job, not a client weeding through proposals submitted by independant contractors. Whole different ballgame there, folks.
It is a tricky situation. As far as I see it web has changed a lot over the past few years, and it continues to change. University shows us this easily, as lecturers are still teaching how to design in tables and have never heard of validation, but have picked up basic CSS to make their lives easier.
As far as I can see, a Web Developer who is serious about their work will be up to date with these changes, and will obviously write up-to-date code and design with usability and accessibility in mind. However, the work place is changing a lot as well. I’ve noticed a lot over the past few years that employees aren’t given seperate jobs to do like they were anymore. There are no single Web Designers or Web Developers. Employees work in smaller teams where teamwork and sharing work is the biggest skill used.
In all honesty, if their code is terrible they don’t deserve the job. Validation is something that can be picked up on though. If an employee needs to know more than “how to write xhtml and cs properly” then I wouldn’t make such a big deal out of it. In a job that requires knowing the changes in Web Development though, employees will need to be trained on new developments in the web world. Perhaps giving them a few weeks to pick up on the newest skills is needed? I managed to get some students in my classes using valid CSS and HTML within 2 weeks of barely knowing tables so I can’t see how mature employees can’t.
I think this pretty much sums up the problem with qualifications. Everything changes so fast you have to be actually working as a web developer and constantly upgrading your skills to keep in touch. Their very profession prevents university lecturers from being able to do this, therefore they aren’t able to teach their students what they themselves don’t know. And even supposing they did keep in touch with the industry, translating that into the classroom is another matter entirely. A curriculum is a very slow-moving cumbersome beast.
I’ve no wish to offend anyone, but I tend to think that anyone who needs to pay someone to teach them something they could easily learn just by doing, is the kind of person who will not be able to continue to grow their skills once they have graduated. Having said that, of course there are people who will go out and get qualifications to make themselves more attractive to employers, and if that’s what you want, there’s nothing wrong with that. Me, I’d rather spend the time just doing it and improving as I go.
I disagree in some aspects of what you’ve said. I agree that a lecturer is probably teaching more than web, so it’s not a priority to know what’s happening now in industry. However, I think they are more than capable of learning about what they’re teaching. Generally, a LOT of Web Developers in the industry are no better than these lecturers. Lecturers on loads of other subjects, such as networking, hardware and programming have to keep up with new technologies and things like that. They attend conferences and train for these kind of things along with their jobs. However, I’ve never noticed any Web lecturers having to go for training on the newest web development news and technologies.
I don’t know if I’d call it incompetence. I have a great Web Development lecturer who works hard to learn what he’s doing. Whilst his techniques are a little dated he will edge students into where to go to do what you need. All a lecturer needs to do is ask the questions that brings these technologies up.
As far as employment goes, I’d still recommend going for someone with a degree. However, you’re more than welcome to ask what kind of work they done in web during their degree. If you ask the right questions you’ll know if they’re up to the task or not.
Surely track record and portfolio should be the main areas to base your decisions on.
The only tricky part is it they have sites in their portfolio that were worked on by more than one person. How are you to know exactly what they did on that site. People can lie.
Definately! Great point there. I’ve found this happen a lot with Graphic Design students.
With Web Development though, you can crack down on it a lot more.
If I were in any position to pick respective Web Developers for a place in my team there’s one thing I’d look for past what work they’ve done in the past. That would be professionalism. If, in an interview, someone pulled out a briefcase or a nice folder containing the work they’ve previously done, along with source code, case studies, competitive analysis’, and other information WHILE running me through it I’d be sure to pick them over someone who just showed me a design and said he’d made it.
In the long term a professional will be better than someone who knows their buzzwords. Who is to say that in a few years time the person who validates his/her code doesn’t follow the new rules for designing good web pages? At least with a professional you can outline your companies/teams method of work and tell him that, if the job was to fall to him, that it would be recommended for him to get up to scratch with the current web development rules. Different firms have different business aims and it is your job to set them out to your future employees.
I see two items of interest here:
1) make small modifications to users sites. I personally would not be interested in having anyone else besides me or who I personally designate modify any of my sites if I were one of your users.
2) [B]we need to place an icon of membership on their site[/B]. Generally, sites that have a need to place an icon on others sites provide the necessary code that is usually cut and pasted into the site.
The validator buttions from W3C Markup Validation Service is like that and other sites I’ve seen with similar requirements: Here is there typical code for pasting minus the <p></p>tags with the rtfloater class added for my purposes.
Point being, you would provide the code needed for your icon and allow their own developers to insert it into their site’s code as they see fit , using your guidelines if necessary.
Unless there is something else you are needing to accomplishe here that is not obvious, you should not need designers/developers to modify others’ sites.
I’m not terribly impressed with college as a training ground for traditional professions, let alone the fast-moving world of web design. However, I disagree with the statement that suggests web design is easy to learn, and there’s no need to hire a teacher.
In fact, I’ve become a huge fan of hiring tutors. I spent a few years teaching myself the basics of web design, PHP, MySQL, etc. and I’ve now reached the point where I’m tried of the constant grind of learning, rather than doing. I’ve hired a couple people to write moderately complex scripts for me, and I recently hired someone to set up Apache, PHP and MySQL on a new laptop. They’ve all been great investments.
First, I have good scripts that didn’t take me days to research and write. Second, it’s nice being able to sit down next to a pro and take notes as they work. One problem many of us do-it-yourselfers face is a lack face-to-face contact with the pros. You can learn a lot from forums, yet you can also miss out on so many simple things if you work in isolation.
Anyway, if I was going to do it all over again, I woudn’t hesitate to occasionally shell out $100-$200 for some simple tutoring just to get me up to speed, especially when tackling a server side language and database. After all, my time is valuable, too.
It’s fine knowing how to handle HTML, CSS,Jave etc. It’s also fine knowing how to use flash and all the other gimmicks. What most and I mean most developers fail in is how to write bloody good creative content.
Content is as important as the visuals, more so even. I think most developers get bogged down trying to impress with technical Knowledge rather than how to write creative that works for their clients.
So ask your developer for CONTENT. How bloody good are they at writing stuff that wil retain attention.
A developer that has EMPATHY with your business and you. One who understands where you want your business to go.
as an adendum. Certification is easy to get from any web-site. Go for the personal touch.
PS Just before anyone thinks I am without certification provenance. I have more than i ever needed.
I am fortunately,in a position to say NO to some clients who dont fit the bill. That’s not conceit but keep yourself aloof. You are who you mix with.
The Baldchemist
In which situations should the web developer be writing the content? In most cases the web developer would be designing a web site for the client’s content. If the web dev is writing the content, how is the client even involved?
Does anyone have any tips on how a non-web developer (hoping to be one day) can select a web developer for a job. Lots of the previous advice re, viewing protfolio, validating code etc. Requires more knowledge than I currently have. Although I understand most of the terms I can not implement or make a judgement at this stage.
Does any one have an opinion on how relevent a subject knowledge or type of website is in selecting a developer. Eg If I need a forum relevent to joggers? Should I and can I find developers whom have already developed forums and have a personal interest in jogging. Ta
How is the client even involved? Seems to me s/he is still a client.
I’ve been hired to write content for clients who weren’t the best writers (not hard to find). They told me what they wanted me to write about and gave me tips and feedback. In fact, one web publisher even hired me to do his writing. There’s nothing wrong with that, though it can get expensive.
Sure, in some situations, web developers will also be able to write content, but I think eldacar’s point was that most developers wouldn’t be expected to do that job. If they can, it’s a bonus, not a criteria for them getting the job. Also, as cococo asks, having an interest in the topic the site is about will enable a content producer to do a better job of producing content for that site, but I don’t think it’s necessarily that important for someone working on the code of a site.
In situations where you’re working alongside someone, then it’s good to share similar interests (I saw a job ad for a developer’s role the other day where one of the criteria was that the person had to be into mountain biking, rallying etc.) cos you want to maximise your chances of getting on with that person, but if the relationship is to be a remote one (ie via email etc.), then that’s probably not so important.
In cases where you want to hire someone, but know nothing about what the person you’re hiring does, then it may be better to get someone who does know to do the hiring for you. That might mean getting a recruitment agency to do it for you (although I’ve often found the recruitment agents to have next to no clue about web dev topics either).
Failing that, I think the best you can do is ask for references from the people you ‘interview’ and actually get in contact with people they’ve worked for before.
You could always ask for a link to their online portfolio and then post a link to it on a web developer’s forum and see what everyone’s feedback is. It’s probably the cheapest and easiest way to get advice.
