Using 'they' in place of 'he/she'

Honestly, I use the word they in replace of he/she when I’m not entirely sure of the person’s gender.

So, I’ll modify my statement for the picky ones of us out there :wink: -
“They” is widely perceived to be grammatically incorrect in this context.

For what it’s worth, I regularly use it. It’s the best option I can find, and I’d be all in favor of the language simply adopting this as the best idea there is to solve the situation.

I think that saying, though “creative evolution is great” is all well and good, as long as we remember that language evolving too fast is just as bad of a problem - you do have to teach it to people, and effectively communicate, after all, and even regional or national dialects of the same language can pose barriers to that, much less adding in new words and modifying meanings of old ones endlessly. But a general progression… a slow evolution of a language… has to be a good thing? Meeting the needs of an evolving people who use it.

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Yes, that’s fair enough, although remember that this singular use of ‘they’ is something that evolved naturally hundreds of years ago, as English was forming as a language, so it’s not forcing anything on people. The usage was beaten out of people by random decisions of a few grammarians.

Right, but once again, you do have to draw lines somewhere at what is and isn’t proper, so who does that?

i.e. - In most places in America, “ya’ll” isn’t proper English; yet many from the South would pretty strongly argue that point. The list of grammatical, or any, “rules” that have been made by people that we don’t care about in a time or place that don’t relate to us abound…

What are y’all talking about? :stuck_out_tongue:

There’s a difference between slang and incorrect language. Slang is usually used in spoken word, and doesn’t often carry over to the written word.

In most places in America, “ya’ll” isn’t proper English

Yes, people get sniffy about various things, but the reality is that this is how people speak, and they do it for a reason—sometimes because of ignorance, other times bedause of a more interesting underlying cause. I think there is a Merriam-Webster video on the background to “y’all” and its the grammatical underpinnings. There’s more to it than just sloppy speech.

Another mistake people make is to decry what’s called sloppy speech—when people say things like “sid down” rather than “sit down”. It’s not actually sloppy at all, but rather a natural speech pattern that goes right back to the very roots of our language—way back at least as far as its Indo-European origins. It’s a process called “sandhi”, where, for example, an unvoiced consonant like t natually becomes its voiced equivalent (d) when followed by another voiced sound.

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Again, I disagree. I see ya’ll written all of the time, as well as a slew of other things.

What determines that it’s slang? Is it the same thing/person/body/ghost that determines if the singular usage of “they” is appropriate or not?

For that matter, what determines incorrect usage of any word anywhere? How does evolution of a language happen, if it doesn’t start with “incorrect” usage?

(I still use “they” in this manner, I just disagree with ya’lls odd standards of what is and isn’t correct and how it gets there :smiley: - I think there either should be standards and a recognized method of acquiring them, or should not be any, and we just forget about proper grammar!)

Edit: Also, how do we deal with the degrading quality of written language that comes with forums, messaging apps, etc? Do we accept that as part of the evolution of our written language, or attempt to curb it, or separate it into a different category of communication, or?

The Queen would say:

“When a user logs on, one enters a username and password” :smile:

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Interesting. I hardly ever see it written, or at least I don’t recall it. Must be the different places we visit.

Unfortunately, we can’t control others. Just try to influence them.

I tried an experiment with my son this morning. He texted me this REALLY long message which got broken up into three separate texts. It was full of text-speak, and was pretty much one long run on sentence. I could catch the general gyst of it, but replied back, “I’m sorry, but I couldn’t follow that. Please re-send - in complete sentences, please.” I got back a text which broke into five different messages, but the response was clear, well written and completely understood (and my son’s spelling/grammar SUCKS). I was amazed, but now I have a new tool in my parenting toolbox to use!

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Nice. A project I’ve worked on now has social media accounts attached to it, and the grammar used there is… horrific. Full of “Heyall hv u seen the nw ftrz of the app? Cant w8 myself!” - coming from the service of a professional business, marketed B2B, primarily, and to a primary age group of end consumer that’s at least over 30. I’m the new guy, and trying to figure out how to address it without stepping on too many toes.

But again - what makes that wrong and not natural language evolution? Do I plan to do something to try to stop it? Yes. But why? Because of common perception. So the end thought there is - if we base everything on common usage and common perception, most or all change must start out being incorrect, and then bully its way into appropriate grammar?

Ugh! I could forgive this when the cost of texts were by character or before the day when there were full keyboards on phones. Now, it just drives me nuts.

I have found however, that the more I respond in complete, coherent English, especially with included grammar, the more likely their responses to me change over to less text-speak and more complete English. I don’t know if it’s immersion, but the responses seem to happen.

Or, I play dumb and just respond with “What?” and I’ll get the message again, more coherent this time…

Why would the Queen enter her username and password when a user logs on? I guess she doesn’t understand how this stuff works. Anyhow, nice to see the Queen doing something for the common folk for once. :stuck_out_tongue:

Remember that those are all just written abbreviations, rather than different language. It’s been common practice to abbreviate words in writing for thousands of years, but it doesn’t actually change the language—as @DaveMaxwell demonstrated with his son.

I’m pretty sure most people are aware it’s slang. :smile:

But no one is still answering the question - why is it slang? Many people that use terms that are unique to a dialect or a region don’t believe that there is anything at all wrong with what they’re saying. And if they do - why do they?

@ralphm - that particular example is an abbreviation, sure. But can you tell me that every single word that you’d consider slang - or grammatically incorrect, for that matter - is simply a shortening?

My point is: When language changes, the beginnings of that change are bound to seem “incorrect” to those who are unused to them. If you’re arguing that it’s appropriate for language to evolve, it’s my stance that you should be hesitant to critique “improper” use of the language.

Edit: Apologies to @ralphm; I’ve dragged your thread pretty far off topic, my bad :smiley:

There’s nothing wrong about slang though. They are correct for believing there is nothing wrong with it.

Blegh. This is one of those conversations where no one seems to be willing to address the actual point being made, so I think I’m gonna drop it. It was fun while it lasted :smiley:

I was actually referring to all of the abbreviations in text messages—like “Heyall hv u seen the nw ftrz of the app? Cant w8 myself!” That’s not actually new language, but just written abbreviations, which, though a bit ugly, are not a change in the language as such. Sorry for not being clear.

Yes, in reality I’m one of those sniffy people that doesn’t like bad grammar. But one can do that from the wrong perspective, so I’m trying to evolve in that respect. (It’s why I love the Merriam-Webster videos, as they give a larger, historical context to this stuff.) When Shakespeare bent and twisted English, he did so from a point of understanding the language, which is the ideal. It’s the same with all the great writers who do unconventional things. Unfortunately, most of the changes in a language are pushed along by the ignorant masses who don’t know what they are doing, and that’s where the pity of it comes in.

In terms of something like “y’all”, though, before writing it off as “wrong”, some historical perspective on language comes in very handy. The “all” at the end is a typical kind of intensifier. Actually, I don’t know the correct term for it, but “y’all” has a particular flavor to it that’s different from “you”. There is a long history of this kind of subtle additions of meaning, but unfortunately, English lacks them in a formal sense. That’s why you get phrases like “I literally exploded with laughter”, when you didn’t literally explode at all. But the “literally” adds extra, subtle meaning to the statement.

In languages like Ancient Greek and Sanskrit, there are lots of little intensifiers that aren’t words in themselves but which add subtle meaning like this.

Nah, let it run where it needs to. This is a great discussion. Imagine having a conversation in a pub where someone keeps complaining because the discussion is “off topic”. I would just walk out. :stuck_out_tongue:

It’s informal.

slang (noun)

  1. a type of language that consists of words and phrases that are regarded as very informal, are more common in speech than writing, and are typically restricted to a particular context or group of people.

I use they in place of he/she all the time, much better.

I can’t resist this addemdum to the topic. There’s a great podcast episode by Lexicon Valley going into the history of this issue: http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2016/01/american_dialect_society_word_of_the_year_is_the_singular_they.html

In it, they note that the use of they as singular goes back to the thirteenth century. It was used by Chaucer, Shakespeare and Austen. It was only grammarians in the 1800s who decided, by themselves, that it should no longer be allowed.

Seems silly to suggest that a pronoun can’t be used for plural and singular, given that we use “you” for both the singular and plural.

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