Episode 72 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! This week, Patrick O’Keefe (@iFroggy), Stephan Segraves (@ssegraves), and Brad Williams (@williamsba) interview Gregory Ng, the Frozen Food Master at Freezer Burns, a popular web video show focused on frozen food reviews that can be found at freezerburns.com, and Wayne Sutton, the Business Development and Marketing Strategist at TriOut, a geolocation based startup that’s focused on the Triangle area of North Carolina.
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- SitePoint Podcast #72: Web Video and Social Media with Gregory Ng and Wayne Sutton (MP3, 30:25, 27.9MB)
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Brad: July 30th, 2010. It’s all about web video and social media as we play host to a couple of experienced and respected practitioners. This is the SitePoint Podcast #72, Web Video and Social Media with Gregory Ng and Wayne Sutton.
Hello and welcome to the SitePoint Podcast. I’m Patrick O’Keefe and we’re glad to have you today as we share more interviews from our live show at Word Camp Raleigh. Today, joined by Brad Williams and Stephan Segraves, we’ll be discussing social media and web video with Gregory Ng and Wayne Sutton. Gregory Ng is the VP, Creative Director at Brooks Bell Interactive and the Frozen Food Master at Freezer Burns, a popular web video show focused on frozen food reviews that can be found at freezerburns.com. Wayne Sutton is the Business Development and Marketing Strategist at TriOut, a geolocation based startup that’s focused on the Triangle area of North Carolina. He’s also a partner at Our Hashtag.
Our next guest is Gregory Ng, Frozen Food Master.
Stephan: Where’s the Frozen Food Master? (Applause)
Patrick: Thanks for joining us.
Greg: Thanks for having me.
Stephan: How are you doing Gregory?
Stephan: Gregory is the VP and Creative Director of Brooks Bell Interactive and the Frozen Food Master at Freezer Burn.
Greg: Self-proclaimed. (laughter)
Stephan: Which leads right into the first question.
Patrick: If we had to vote on Frozen Food Master I guarantee you would be named by this room Frozen Food Master.
Stephan: You’d get my vote. Where did you come up with the idea to blog about frozen food? What struck you to do that?
Greg: So, I’m kind of a self-proclaimed disciple of Gary Vaynerchuk and loved what he did with his wine shows—everyone familiar with his wine show, Wine Library TV?—and I wanted to get involved with video and I wanted something that wasn’t just about— I mean a lot of people talk about passion, but I wanted to also talk about monetizing that passion. And so I wanted something that I could own, a niche that I could own, something that’s backed by big business, and I kind of arrived at the frozen food category because as you know it’s backed by huge business.
Stephan: Yeah. Con Agra one of them.
Greg: Con Agra is one of them, yes.
Stephan: So you mentioned Gary Vaynerchuk, who are some other video blogging inspirations that you have or other people that you watch that you like?
Greg: Rocketboom; I watch Rocketboom religiously, Ze Frank, when he did The Show, which is like the ultimate in dedication; a show a day for a year is amazing. I watch Zadi at Epic Fu, those are obviously the biggies.
Stephan: The big ones, yeah.
Greg: But, you know, I like obscure shows as well, Old Jews Telling Jokes, do you know that?
Stephan: (Laughing) I haven’t heard of it, no.
Brad: Sounds interesting.
Patrick: Sounds interesting already! Should we cancel the show and pull that up?
Greg: It’s a great show. There’s a show called Project Rant which is amazing, and so I try to consume a lot of video.
Patrick: So, I was at your talk earlier, most of it. I’m sorry I came in and walked out; I felt like an idiot when I did that the first time. But I listened to how you spoke about competition and how you chose something that you felt was open and that you could just, to use Gary’s language, to crush; any competition you wanted to scare them away, you didn’t want anybody to feel like they could enter this space and play with you.
Patrick: So, I guess the question is what if you are passionate about something and there’s already a show about that? Do you discourage someone from going into that or how do you look at that?
Greg: I mean I think it takes a lot of dedication to do a video show, a lot, I mean any type of show, right, you guys know that. And it really depends on what you’re in for; are you doing it because you need a creative outlet, that’s great, that’s fine. If you’re doing it to monetize that’s also good, but it really depends on what your end goal is. And Gary has said this in a lot of his talks, you know, you don’t want to do a wine show, right, because he owns that. But, you can start slicing and dicing that into super-niches within wine; I’m waiting for someone to come and do a frozen pizza show, for example. Do I review frozen pizzas? Absolutely, but I review everything; someone could totally own frozen pizzas and have their own show, but it really depends. I used to review Apple products, they’re a dime a dozen, right, you need some sort of hook, some sort of catch.
Patrick: Do you think that personality creates niche? So, for example, Gary Vaynerchuk’s personality is very particular. Now, if you come in, if you were doing a wine show, and you were the opposite of his personality, let’s say, I mean is that in a way creating its own niche? Because as much — I love Gary, but he’s probably not for everyone, right?
Patrick: And no one is for everyone. Like this podcast isn’t for everyone, your show’s not for everyone; people just gravitate toward other personalities; would you consider that a niche in itself?
Greg: Absolutely. You know I have kind of a wry, really an acquired taste for my humor, and some people really dig it and some people really don’t. And my wife unfortunately doesn’t.
Patrick: YouTube commenters don’t, right?
Greg: YouTube commenters do not. But, you know, it depends. People sometimes get really, really into Gary because of his energy, great, but if you don’t drink wine, like myself, you’re only going to watch so many shows, right? So it really depends what you’re interested in.
Patrick: And just to give an example of a niche show, I don’t know if they’re still doing it because I think Kipp moved, but Jeff Cohen and Kipp Bodner used to do North Carolina Wine Show, right?
Greg: They’re still doing it, yeah.
Patrick: They’re still doing it, okay. That’s an example of a niche show.
Stephan: I guess this is the question that you probably get the most is: what’s the best frozen food you’ve ever eaten?
Greg: I get that all the time.
Patrick: Let’s list the top 11, go ahead.
Greg: Great. It really depends on what type of stuff you want; those of you who are local, anyone here local from North Carolina?
Patrick: What’s your palette like?
Greg: Um, my palette is scarred. (Laughter) Physically scarred. Bella Monica is a great Italian place here in Raleigh, off of Edwards Mill Road. A lot of people don’t know they have their own frozen flatbread pizzas that you can get at Whole Foods specifically, they’re gluten free and they’re amazing. And they’re actually the ones that you order off the gluten free menu that you can — they actually serve those and they are really, really amazing. And that’s kind of the one I use as a perfect example. Small, local company starting to build locally then regionally then nationally. Good products.
Stephan: On the flip side what’s the worst most terrible thing you’ve ever eaten?
Greg: If I’m talking overall brand, we were talking about this over lunch, I really cannot stand Banquet Foods. I— What’s that?
Audience Member: (inaudible)
Greg: Right, that’s right, you’re a fan of the show I can see. I did review frozen dog food once. (laughter)
Stephan: Now wait; we gotta go deeper into this because this is interesting.
Greg: Called Frosty Paws (laughter) and Cool Claws, which is the cat version, FYI.
Stephan: Was it a dog tasting this or was it –?
Greg: No, it was me; it was me tasting it (laughter). That was the worst, but probably the worst from human consumption overall —
Patrick: (Laughter) Human consumption, how many different consumptions are there? Is there like cow consumption and dog, cat?
Greg: It is — I don’t know, there’s a lot; if you go on my site and you search by half-star ratings you’ll find there’s quite a bit. I don’t want to necessarily call out.
Patrick: So, you mentioned in your talk your kind of ultimate goal is getting on TV.
Patrick: And I’ve heard you say that before. It’s great to have goals, but has anything ever — Do you see that coming, I guess? Have you had anybody comment to you with any bites? Have you started pitching people? Are you going about it, do you have representation, you know, how are you going about attacking that goal?
Greg: Well, you know the first thing is I don’t know if anyone’s ever read Mastering the Rockefeller Habits, it’s a great entrepreneur business marketing book. And they also talk about something called your BHAG, which is your Big Hairy Audacious Goal, and mine is to be on TV. So everything that I do, every show, every decision, is pointing towards that, and that is to get a show on television. Not necessarily frozen foods, although if it comes around great. And that’s one of the benefits of owning a niche is I’m owning a niche because no one else is doing it, which is great, because no one wants to compete against me right now, which is great, but also because it gives me the best chance of success to stand out in the marketplace. Because it’s now not about hey did you see that guy reviewing food or cooking food or doing a recipe show, which I could rattle off 30 of them right now, it’s hey did you see that guy who does frozen food, there’s really only one person right now. So it’s more of an exposure thing. I’ve gotten some bites, I don’t have representation yet, some people have approached me for potentially doing pilots and what I need to stress is this isn’t my day job. So it’s really gonna be a tough decision; when it’s right, it’s right, but as long as I’m moving towards my BHAG that’s kind of my overall goal.
Patrick: When Brandon Ely was up here, I think you’re in similar positions really because you work at an agency, he works at an agency, he’s creative director, so are you. He speaks at events, so do you, and obviously he has an ecommerce business, you do this show, he has kids, you have kids, so he said “don’t sleep,” and from your talk you said you were up till 2:00 a.m. So is that the motto, don’t sleep?
Greg: Well, you know, I mean it’s a matter of priority, right? I sleep about four hours a night, it’s good and bad, when I get sick I get sick for ten days, when I don’t get sick it’s five hour energy drinks and —
Stephan: Getting yourself sick! (Laughs)
Greg: And trying to stay healthy, right? So it’s about priorities. Yes, when I, at eight o’clock when I put my kids to bed, I then start working on my show until about 2:00 a.m. I carve out time every week to go out with my wife. I carve out time every weekend; I build around my schedule to hang out with my kids in the morning and stuff like that, so it is very regimented, vacations screw — can I say screw?
Patrick: Yes, you can say screw.
Greg: Vacations screw me because it throws my process off incredibly, I gotta double-time, you know.
Stephan: Cool. For potential video bloggers out there, bloggers in general, what’s a tip that you would give as encouragement to keep going?
Greg: So I actually covered this as my final statement in my presentation this morning is patience. It’s don’t let negative comments or no traffic deter you from keeping on, staying on focus and continually putting out content. It took me about 250 episodes to feel like I was gaining popularity. For the first 60 episodes I would get one comment maybe, right, and it’s tough sometimes to keep on doing it and saying, okay, when’s the traffic coming? So, that’s what I would say, patience.
Stephan: Cool. So where can people find you online?
Stephan: Very cool. Thank you very much for coming on.
Patrick: Thanks Greg.
Patrick: Well, our next guest is Mr. North Carolina, Wayne Sutton, and Wayne is the Business Development and Marketing Strategist at TriOut as well as partner at Our Hashtag. He says he’s a geek so that’s the simple title. Wayne, how’s it going?
Wayne: It’s going good.
Patrick: Thanks for joining us. Glad to see you here.
Wayne: Thanks for having me.
Patrick: So tell us about TriOut.
Wayne: Well, okay.
Patrick: How many people know what TriOut is? Okay, how many people are on TriOut, are you all on TriOut as well? Okay.
Wayne: How many people found out about TriOut this morning in the session? Ah-ha!
Stephan: That’s why you’re here.
Wayne: Well, TriOut is a location-based community startup here in the Triangle area founded by Lawrence Ingraham who joined me in the session this morning. He came up with the idea back when FourSquare was exclusive to only like Austin, New York, San Francisco and everybody was like well we want it here, and one of my friends Dennis (inaudible) who’s like slowly rolling it out to various cities, and Lawrence was like well we have the community here, which I think Forbes has proved it that the Triangle area is the most wireless city in the county. And so we have the community here, we have the ecologists here; we have the people here so we can launch our own FourSquare similar app in the Triangle. And it started out with an iPhone app and we launched a social network, trioutnc.com, and so we’re a mix of Yelp where we have reviews, BrightKite where you can load photos and also FourSquare with the checkins and the leaderboard, and where they have mayors, we have keyholders. And also I like to call our website CitySearch 2.0 to where you can find local businesses, there is user generated content submitted by the community in the Triangle.
Patrick: Excellent. Someone, oh, I know who it was. Oh, Steve Knight, are you in the room? In the back, he checked in to TriOut for here and there wasn’t a photo, and you took one, right Steve? Or not. You took a photo or did you let me down? You didn’t. Thanks Steve. (laughter)
Wayne: Did you check it? Because of course with all these location based startups there’s two things that happen, one or two things that happen, is that you have to worry duplicate locations. And like we don’t necessarily create — we create an event in the app, but the event is always tied to a real location. So what happened is that there is the Raleigh Sheraton that’s in TriOut, and then somebody created it WordCamp Raleigh. So somebody could’ve, he could’ve, checked into WordCamp Raleigh and saw there was not a photo and uploaded there or he could’ve checked into Raleigh Sheraton. And so that is one of the problems with a lot of location based social networks popping up is we’re gonna keep the database valid and try and keep the community honest.
Patrick: So you recently left the agency space, right Wayne?
Patrick: And you know we’ve had some Agency people up here who do other things too.
Patrick: And I guess what I wanted to ask you was that you know there are a lot of people in the social media space who work for agencies or who look to do so or who want to do so. It seems like a certain number of Twitter followers maybe you could work at an agency.
Wayne: (laughs) That’s funny.
Patrick: But I guess what’s your take on that whole sort of — the idea of working for an agency and whether or not it’s something that you yourself would want to return to in the future.
Wayne: Well, repeat the first part of the question.
Patrick: So, social media people and entrepreneurs going to agencies, like yourself, and how you feel about that, your own personal perspective and whether or not that’s something you’re going to look to go forward and back to in the future.
Wayne: Okay, the agency space is very competitive right now because of the whole economy, agencies have to prove their value. I call myself a geek because of Twitter and so forth and social media, a lot of people put me in the market, but I will constantly tell people that I’m a marketing guy, I’m a geek, I’m a former network administrator, a blogger-type guy, little gadgets and technology, but entered the marketing space because, like I say, social media. So, in the social media space a lot of agencies, people say their agencies had to catch up to be — to the whole roulette way of marketing and PR. And as far as the — I’m more of an entrepreneur as well. So joining the agency space was interesting because it kind of felt like the agency that I joined last had a startup vibe to it, and I said wow we can really take this and do something big with it. But I feel like I was doing TriOut on the side and fell in love with it and continued to fall in love with its potential and said pursue my passion, which the previous three or four speakers came up here and talked about; about how pursuing a passion is important, so that’s what I decided to do. I think anyone looking at joining an agency now should look at what clients they have, maybe sign on and do a contract first before just going full time, possibly working part time with the agency. And also look at — make sure there’s no work for you not to do for one single project but to continue on six months, a year down the road. Would I join agency again? My goal was always to have my own business, you know, from the time in I was in high school to now I owned my own business and I worked with a couple startups that some failed, some are working out, but I believe in TriOut, I believe what were doing at OurHashtag, what we use online, and then marketing to promote events and we have some concepts we’re gonna start doing as well, so I believe those two are in my future.
Brad: So we’re in North Carolina for WordCamp Raleigh, obviously, this past October was the Social Media Business Forum that you had a part in helping out with or organizing. Are there plans to do that again this year in 2010?
Wayne: Yes, yes, Social Media Business Forum was a social media conference that myself, Jeff Cohen, Rian Bowden, Kipp Bodner organized. We had Patrick spoke there and a couple others, Greg Ng spoke there, and we had a good turnout, it was the first one. I have been blessed with the opportunity to travel and speak at various conferences throughout the year, past couple years, and meet all these different people across the United States. And with the conference I wanted to bring some of the people, some of the knowledge, some of the conversations I’ve had across America to the Raleigh-Durham area, and so that’s why we planned the Social Media Business Forum and we’re looking to have another one in September. The date is not one hundred percent set, but it’s late September 2010.
Patrick: It’s a great event.
Stephan: Beyond you being here, why is North Carolina such a great place to be in the social media area and tech and stuff?
Wayne: Well, (laughter) it’s not me, it’s the people. The community here is what is a great place. I would be nothing, you wouldn’t know about Wayne if it wasn’t for the people in this community. I mean I went out to a lot of networking events, met awesome people, networked, and when we just came together and got to know one another. And I made it a goal of mine a couple years ago to say let the world know about how great the Triangle area is. And that became my under, you know, kind of my underbelly passion so to speak. And it bothers me when I read stuff from TechCrunch, Mashable, CNN, New York Times, and I know they work with startups, I know they’re friends with startups in their own backyard, and we got great people, we have great startups; we have everything here in the Triangle that the Valley has, that New York has, that Austin has, that Boulder Colorado has. We may not have the VC, the YCombinator, funding, incubators, but we have that now, we didn’t have it in the past, but we have launched (inaudible) Digital, no affiliation, but we have, with TriOut, we have a location based startup. There’s a site called (inaudible), no affiliation with none of these other companies, but they’re like our own Groupon, you know, we have developers, a great development team, we’ve got a lot of designers here. And I just feel like this community is awesome and we don’t get enough respect in the tech space as we deserve. Yeah, we have this SitePoint podcast and all.
Patrick: The first ever live SitePoint podcast. Does anyone have any questions for Wayne? Questions about TriOut? Entrepreneurial ship, anything?
Stephan: Got a couple over here.
Audience Member: TriOut is just the iPhone app at this point (inaudible)
Wayne: Yes, right now we launched with the founder Lawrence Ingraham, he’s an iPhone developer by trade, so of course we launched with that platform. We have a mobile version that works on any smartphone, any web-enabled app phone, m.trioutnc.com, which I’ll allow you once you set your password on trioutnc.com you can check in, log in and check in. We’re working on HTML5 mobile version next, after that we’re looking into Blackberry, Windows Mobile and Droid versions as well.
Audience Member: (inaudible)
Wayne: Wow, I’m probably not the best person to talk about privacy.
Patrick: To repeat the question, just talk about privacy, Wayne Go!
Wayne: Um, yeah —
Patrick: Wayne doesn’t have privacy, everything’s online.
Wayne: That is kind of true, almost everything online. But you should be concerned about privacy depending on what type of content you’re posting, what type of career path, that’s kind of been my philosophy. Don’t post anything online you wouldn’t want your mother to see or a potential job opportunity come up for them to hire you, or be questionable or something that would be controversial that could land you on the front page of Digg and so forth, and you’ll be that poster guy for something that you thought was fun or somebody sent you an email or a comment about. So, with the whole Facebook situation privacy is huge, but you got to think about it, it’s something that we don’t talk about that much but how many people have a Gmail account? Almost everybody in this room, right? Yeah, alright, do I see anybody deleting their Gmail account? Anybody thought about it? But Google has access to all your information based on your login; in Google using a Gmail account access to history, your searches, also what type of content, you know they scan your email and so wherever you login has that data. So is Google an open or closed network like Facebook? Think about it. But, all the fuss right now is talking about Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg because that’s where the main tech blogs and everybody is talking about. Of course Facebook is a closed data network, they don’t let people access the data to get it out but they have all your data. But, they let their advertisers access that data to get information to advertise to you inside of Facebook. So the privacy concerns you got to think about it, it’s on the Web, don’t post content that could get you in trouble. People got to make money, we’re in the Web business, web businesses revolve around making money; advertisers got to make money by eyeballs, got to make money by clicks. Facebook is not gonna sell your data to somebody that’s gonna take advantage of it, they’re gonna work with partners to get eyeballs to make money. It’s all about privacy, it’s all about users, it’s all about eyeballs and clicks. So, the Web is run on dollars, dollars run on eyeballs around users, you know, create a profile, be smart about it, delete your cache, your cookie, don’t do anything you wouldn’t want your mother to see.
Patrick: And I can testify to that because even though I know Wayne is out there, like really out there, everywhere talking about a lot of things he’s doing, there is, and I’ve witnessed it, I can attest to it, the restraint, the seriousness, the responsibility that you have for what you put online, and how maybe there’s something that someone said that wasn’t that great, but you’ve let it pass because Wayne is a nice guy. That’s all. Wayne’s really a nice guy.
Wayne: Thanks Patrick. Patrick’s also nice. We’re having — this is bromance up here guys; this is bromance (laughter). But I don’t get to see Patrick that often but we communicate online on back channels, but thanks Patrick, and you and your team, Brandon, and the whole SitePoint podcast, are great guys as well. But, you know, we have to take actions for what we do online, and being out there in the public, being — I didn’t say this earlier in the brand session but I wish I had, but everybody has a brand, whether you realize it or not. No matter, it’s not about the Twitter followers; if you have five or if you have 3,000, 30,000, somebody’s listening, you have a brand. Anybody remember the story about a lady who posted something on her — she Tweeted about a place she moved out of and the rent and so forth, and they ended up suing her and so forth? The lady had 200 followers. Some people said oh she only had 200 followers; and they came to sue her, and it became this huge social media case about whether or not you should post or complain on Twitter. I mean she had 200 followers, does that make her less of a person or less of a voice or less as an individual; did her matter increase or decrease because she only had 200 followers? No. She’s an individual that had a voice, a brand, had a message. So, everybody has a brand, everybody watch what they say and do as a brand, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be yourself, just be smart about posting content. And if somebody attacks you negatively or positively deal with it the appropriate way. There are some times when you’ve got to ignore stuff. Somebody told me a long time ago two things: they said that people get to you sometimes, they just want to see you struggle, people get jealous, sometimes people just want to get under your skin. Don’t ever let them see they get to you because then they know they got you. And then somebody told me also dealing with the Internet you’ve got to have thick skin. Somebody could say, well, I don’t like the way Wayne talks, they might say — I monitor what people say about myself online, I’m always conscious about trying to do the best job. Am I expert? No. Am I a lucky guy? Yes. Do I try to hustle? It’s funny listening to a lot of people talking about how late they stay up at night, and you know what I call that, that’s vampire moves; you stay up late at night to get stuff done. And so you know you always got to be careful of what you say and just be prepared for criticism, but it’s how you handle that criticism is kind of what people leave with in their mindset and their heads of how they feel about you and your perception.
Patrick: And just the idea of having just 200 followers; I had a friend of mine who he commented about his job on his Facebook page, and public profile, private profile, it doesn’t really matter because his was private and he mentioned something. It was fairly harmless, workday complaints, nothing about a particular person, but it was a stressful issue for him because one of his co-workers saw it. And he has a private profile but he has 200 friends, or however many friends he has, even if it’s 10 friends, your privacy in that case is only as strong as the network of people that you allow access to your page and that you add as a friend because every friend that you add is a potential, has the potential to then share that information with someone else.
Wayne: True. And also just something that happened last week in Charlotte was a lady, she went on Facebook, and she works at a bar or a restaurant, and some people left her a tip and she wasn’t happy about it, went on Facebook and called them a couple of profanitary languages and words and she got fired. They had a policy though; they had a social media policy about what you can and cannot say online. How many of your companies have a social media policy? How many people have read it? (laughs) Alright. Because regardless of it they do or don’t, you know, ask them can I have that conversation? A lot of times we don’t want to talk about it, but in today’s world I mean bloggers are sitting out there waiting for somebody to mess up, somebody to do something so they can go and blog about it and get traffic for it and make you the news story out of it and then your company may not have had a policy but it created such a bad vibe or misrepresentation for them, then they may lay you off for that. I mean it could just set you back. So, think about your company’s social media policy, maybe work with your company developing a social media policy, and get one in place. Because being online in today’s times everything is critiqued, everything is judged, everybody has an opinion, and my little personal rant is let’s try not to complain so much on social media sites and use them as far as just really helping one another out. And a lot of people are using social media for good causes now, so let’s see what we can do for that as well … Patrick!
Patrick: So, Wayne, where can we find you online? And do you want to host, I mean do you want to host? (Laughter)
Stephan: He can host the show, yeah.
Patrick: He’s our fourth host, Wayne Sutton, sorry Kevin in Australia, we have a new host; no. (Laughter)
Wayne: You know I love you guys, I’m just messing with you.
Patrick: No, no, no. So where can we find you online Wayne?
Wayne: You can find me on my blog socialwayne.com and Twitter and every other social network as Wayne Sutton.
Patrick: Great, Wayne, thanks.
Wayne: Thank you for having me.
Stephan: Thanks Wayne.
Patrick: Well, it was great to have them on. And now let’s go around the table and close out this episode of the SitePoint Podcast.
Brad: I’m Brad Williams from webdevstudios.com and you can find me on Twitter @williamsba.
Patrick: And I am Patrick O’Keefe of the iFroggy Network, iFroggy.com, I’m on Twitter @iFroggy. You can follow our usual co-host, Kevin Yank, @sentience and SitePoint @sitepointdotcom. You can also visit us at sitepoint.com/podcast to leave comments on this show and to subscribe to receive every show automatically. Email firstname.lastname@example.org with your questions for us, we’d love to read them out on the show and give you our advice.
This episode of the SitePoint Podcast was produced by Karn Broad.
Thank you for listening and we’ll see you next time.
Theme music by Mike Mella.
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