SitePoint Podcast #117: Return To Boagworld with Paul Boag

Episode 117 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! In this week’s show, our host Louis Simoneau (@rssaddict) interviews the legend of web design podcasting that is Paul Boag (@boagworld). We get to hear about the new seasons of podcasts Paul is doing which chronicle the method used while re-designing the Boagworld website, from mood boards to the HTML5 coding and responsive web design.

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Interview Transcript

Louis: Hello and welcome to another episode of the SitePoint Podcast. Today on the show I’m very happy to have with us another illustrious podcaster in the web design world, Paul Boag, hi Paul.

Paul: Hello, good to meet you and good to be on the show, thanks for inviting me.

Louis: Absolutely, it’s a pleasure. I’ve been told by Patrick, who you know, to thank you for any influence you may have had for judging the .net Awards where the show won The Best Podcast Award, so his thanks to you. I didn’t have anything to do with the show at that point so I can’t really thank you for that directly, but yeah, so it’s good to have you on the show.

Paul: It’s good to be on the show, and you guys have been going for a good length of time now.

Louis: We’re getting there, we’re in the — what is this, I think this will be 118 or 117, so pretty good, getting there, not quite the venerable age of Boagworld.

Paul: Well, nobody’s quite the venerable age of Boagworld unfortunately.

Louis: I definitely remember. I remember listening to possibly the first few episodes you did.

Paul: That must’ve been painful.

Louis: (Laughs)

Paul: It was terrible to begin with; it was just me droning on in the mic without any company or any banter or anything that people have come to like from the show. We’ve actually put on the very first episode now, we got a health warning at the beginning

Louis: You’ve added in a little bit?

Paul: yeah, we’ve added in a little bit saying ‘don’t listen to this’.

Louis: (Laughs) just in case anyone should stumble across it.

Paul: Exactly, yeah, we’ve told them to listen to the later episodes, but I think a lot of people still ignore it, it’s interesting.

Louis: So that brings me on to something I wanted to talk about, you guys have done something pretty interesting, you’ve decided sort of I guess retrospectively that the first 200-odd episodes of the show you did were the first season spread out over five years.

Paul: That’s quite a long season isn’t it really?

Louis: I think that might actually be a record, you should look into to phoning Guinness about that; you might be eligible for something. And then so you took a bit of a break and then launched into a second season which is sort of thematically different, do you want to talk a bit about that, it’s pretty interesting.

Paul: Yeah, I mean essentially after 200-plus episodes we were losing a bit of momentum, and to be frank the kind of the burden of doing a weekly show and having to do it every week was becoming problematic to us and our business because of the amount of effort that was involved with it, and I think there wasn’t the same passion that there was initially for it, and I think even listeners were beginning to take the show for granted, and we needed a change, we needed to do something different. And so what we decided to do, you know, we debated should we stop it entirely as our kind of time gone, there are all these other web design podcasts with people that are super-enthusiastic out there wanting to do stuff, so should we just step away from it completely, and we didn’t really want to do that just simply because we do enjoy doing the podcast a lot. So what we decided to do is move to a more TV-based approach to the show which is where we do a season of say six, eight, whatever episodes on a particular subject doing a particular thing, and then essentially what we do is we finish that season, we have a rest, we decide what we want to be the next season and then we repeat the process again. And so far we’ve done one season and we’ve just started the second, and it seems to be working, it makes the show feel much more focused, it makes it feel much more alive again, there seems to be renewed interest, so overall it feels like the right move to do. The other thing that we did with the first season which we’re not doing with the second season, we’ve produced a book that’s associated with that season, and I think that went down very well as well of having this kind of take-away that you can take away from the season as well. So, yeah, it seems to be working well, I’m enthusiastic about it.

Louis: That’s really cool, it’s an innovative idea and especially the idea of bundling it with a book; did you guys self-publish that or did you partner with a publisher for the book?

Paul: Yeah, we decided just to self-publish it. I mean it’s really interesting because I was a little bit unsure about what the best thing to do with that was. And so we’ve just kept it really simple for the first season and we’ve published an e-book associated with it. So it’s a fair length book, six chapters in it, and in that first season it’s about dealing with return on investment, how to build a website that generates a return on investment. And, yeah, we decided to self-publish it; interestingly I was of the opinion of a web designer they would want a physical book anyway, they’ll be quite happy with their Kindle or their iPad or their iPhone or whatever, but I got into an interesting debate on Twitter where everybody told me that actually we still want dead trees and that I’m entirely wrong on that, so apparently it was a false presumption, but there you go.

Louis: It definitely appears to be the case here at SitePoint; we make a pretty good living on sitting in an office that was built on selling dead-tree books.

Paul: Absolutely.

Louis: It seems to be something that people still like to have next to the computer and reference, especially when it comes to sort of instructional stuff for code or even any kind of I’m doing something on the computer which is where I’m working, but then when I want to refer to some advice or instruction about that I can turn away and look at something different. The new season of the Boagworld Podcast that just started, you’ve done one episode so far in the new season if I’m not mistaken.

Paul: It depends on when this interview goes out (laughs), either one or two I’m guessing.

Louis: And so the new season is something a bit different, right?

Paul: Yeah. So, season one which was building websites for return on investment, season two was meant to be client-centric web design; I was going to write another book and do a second season which was going to be looking at the subject of working with clients and how to get the most out of that client relationship, because I get kind of fed up with a lot of the negativity that flies around about clients. But, when I kind of actually sat down to write it, it’s a subject I’m really keen on and still really want to do, but I was kind of looking back at my body of work and going I don’t know I’ve talked a lot about web design and not actually do a lot of it, and I was feeling that I think the thing that’s always held me back with an audio podcast is it’s quite hard to obviously demonstrate things like code and design and that kind of stuff, so I’ve always intended to keep away from the really specifics of, I don’t know, how to approach design or get a mood boards or wireframes or code or anything like that because it’s visual and it’s hard to do. But what I’ve decided to do, and they’ve left me feeling like well everything that we’ve been doing is very theoretical, I’d like to do something that was more practical, more hands-on, getting our hands dirty kind of thing. At the same time I also had this problem whereby the Boagworld website is in desperate need of redesign; when you’ve got a website that’s about web design it should really be using cutting edge technology and all of the rest of it. So I decided to kill two birds with one stone and essentially rebuild the Boagworld.com website as season two, so each episode within the season will tackle a different aspect of the process that I’m going through to rebuild Boagworld. So it’s starting at the very basics in episode one where we’re talking about what are my business objectives of Boagworld, why does the website exist, etcetera, episode two is going to be about target audiences, who are my target audiences, what do I want from them, etcetera, three is going to be a wireframe, four on kind of mood board look and feel, then we’re going to get on to design proper, we’re going to look at usability, accessibility, we’re going to get into responsive design, setting up a WordPress blog, dealing with content, all these different areas going step-by-step through the process right the way through to kind of analytics and AB testing and all that kind of good stuff. So, I’ve really taken this case study and following it through; I think this is going to be quite a long season simply because I think it’s going to take me quite a while to do this.

Louis: Yeah, that sounds like it’s a bit more involved than what you could fit in five or six hours of radio.

Paul: Exactly. So, you know I think this one will go on a while, but I just think it’ll be much more hands-on and much more practical and already the feedback has been superb for it, and I think people are much more excited to see a website evolve. I mean what really kind of got me was being at Future of Web Design this year, and I was watching Mike Kus who is a designer here in the UK, and he gave a talk in which he played a video of him designing a website, it was obviously a time-lapse video to kind of compress it all down, but essentially you watch this website kind of evolve in front of you, and I find those the most exciting talks, the talks where you see somebody’s work, see somebody’s thought process rather than here’s a load of pretty pictures of stuff that I produced previously or alternatively here’s a load of theories; it’s seeing that stuff done in practice I think is so inspiring. But as a podcaster and a web designer it’s absolutely terrifying designing in the open like this and letting everybody see your work and see your thought process, it’s scary because people might be horrible about it (laughter), but I’m hoping not.

Louis: Yeah, I’m sure you’ll do fine in it, and if anything the feedback you’ll get will help you out.

Paul: Well that is what I’m kind of hoping really. I’m just being blatantly honest and transparent about the whole process, and even to the point where the show that I’m recording on Monday is about target audiences, and obviously everybody listening to the show is actually the target audience I’m trying to reach, and so I’m sitting there like talking about all the things I can extract from this target audience, you know, what I want them to do and how I want them to do it, and you’re thinking, bloody hell, should I be talking like this, but let’s go transparent, let’s go on this, let people see the real reasons we do these podcasts, that we do these things and the marketing benefits they provide, etcetera, and just put it out there and see how people respond. And I think normally people respond very positively to honesty, and people are already making some great suggestions about how I can improve the site and stuff that I can do, so I think it’s going to be a good process.

Louis: It will be really interesting. Have you come with a way of how you’re going to deal with the more I guess the bits of it that require more visual parts, so for the bits that are code or even the wireframes and design aspects it’s hard to convey that through audio, as you were mentioning earlier; what’s the plan?

Paul: I mean, yeah, you’re right, there are going to be some limitations. What I’m intending to do, I think, I’m still kind of playing with it because we’re at the early stages where it’s a lot of still theoretical, stuff like business objectives and target audiences, not a problem yet; I think when we get on to design then that’s where I think the show notes will become really important, I mean I’ve always taken an approach with podcasting where my show notes were essentially a blog post about whatever we’re podcasting on, so people will be able to go and see designs and mood boards and all the rest of it there. When we kind of get to the coding stage I don’t know, I mean obviously again the blog post could do that and you could show examples of code and stuff, I’m half toying with the idea of setting up a development site online somewhere, where people could actually see the website in bits, they can see the un-styled HTML, and as I add the CSS on top of it and all of that kind of stuff. I don’t know yet whether I want to do that or not, so I’m kind of still playing with ideas; it will be interesting to see what people think, and I’m sure they’ll let me know how they want me to do it.

Louis: It will be interesting to get to play with a lot of the newer technologies that are becoming sort of available now, we recently did a book on HTML5 and CSS3, and it’s sort of shocking to see how much stuff has changed. Maybe as I’ve been working in books for a little while and you’ve been working more with clients and on the podcast, if you haven’t actually gotten your hands dirty with code in a little while, when you come back and, oh wow, there’s a lot of different stuff we can do now that we couldn’t do the last time I tried to do this.

Paul: I know; it’s so exciting, even because I’ve already started building bits and bobs of the site, I’m trying to keep ahead of myself so that things that take longer aren’t going to hold the show back, if that makes sense. And already I’m starting to play with things like responsive design and some of the CSS3 stuff that’s going on, and looking at mobile, and to be honest it really excited me there’s just so much; I’m going to sound like an old man now but it’s so much easier than it used to be.

Louis: (Laughs) Well, that’s definitely the truth. We used to spend, and this is going to actually kind of lead on to the other thing I wanted to talk about today, but we used to spend hours or even half a day messing with getting rounded corners on a flexible box to not break.

Paul: Yeah! And now it’s a line of code. So, yeah, absolutely really excited, I mean I do have the advantage, and one of the exercises I need to go through and did go through as part of the show is looking at my analytics and all the rest of it, and I’m in a spoiled position that I think that 10% of my users use IE, and out of that 10% almost all of them are on IE9, so, you know, I’m spoiled in that I don’t have to worry as much about kind of it working in older browsers, although I am going to try and address that just simply because otherwise I’m missing out on a big part of the problem that people face. But, you know that is just brilliant that you can shortcut so much stuff now by using some of these advanced selectors and advanced styling and all of that kind of stuff, and I’m loving responsive design, I just think that’s the coolest thing ever.

Louis: Yeah, I was just going to say it used to be one of those things where you’d start a site and think, ah, you know, do I go fluid or fixed and fluid can look ugly sometimes and fixed who knows what’s going to happen if monitors get huge, and now you don’t even have to worry about it, you can just do it once and it can look good as much time as you’re willing to put into every sort of step along the way, it can look good at any resolution.

Paul: And you know I’m going to spend a bit of time thinking about potentially the future and what will come along and how you can layer in some additional, you know, if suddenly there’s a new resolution that comes out that everybody seems to be using for whatever reason, you can just layer that into the site and the site will adapt without having to rebuild it from scratch and all that kind of stuff. I’m also using another thing that I’m really enjoying using, it’s just making life so much easier, is rems; have you come across these, Jonathan Snook’s article on it?

Louis: I’ve read it but I didn’t really play around with it, I think I just sort of saw it in passing and thought hey that’s pretty cool and then got swept up with something else.

Paul: Yeah, so essentially the thing with REMs, you know, traditionally we’ve all been taught to use EMs as our font sizing, the way that we do font sizing, but the problem with EMs is they’re basically a pain in the neck because you get deeper and deeper because they kind of inherit their value from the parent and so it all gets very complicated working out what value you want in order to get the text a particular size and so on. With REMs what’s so great is they’re set from the root, so if you just set your font size on your html tag and then whatever you set relates back to the html tag, so if you set the html tag as 62.5% that makes one REM equal to ten pixels, so therefore if you want 14 pixels it’s the size of your text and it’s 1.4 and so on, so that made life so much easier, thank you very much Jonathan Snook.

Louis: Yeah, that’s definitely something you run into. I was recently looking over someone’s CSS where because of that cascade of EMs that wound up with calculated values of .487 EM for a given size, and it’s just not very pretty.

Paul: No, absolutely not. So this made the world a so much simpler place. I mean it’s not supported by IE, but then you can fall back onto pixels and he talks about how to do that in the article as well which is kind of is a no-brainer really.

Louis: Yeah, that’s great. That does, what were saying earlier, leads onto the other thing I wanted to talk to about we were just briefly mentioning how some of the CSS3 stuff makes our lives a lot easier, for example the rounded corners and how you’re somewhat in a privileged position because very few of your users are on IE but you’re still going to try and address those things. One of the things we were talking about on the panel show on the podcast a couple of weeks ago was this little PDF fact sheet that your company Headscape put out, which was simply entitled Where are my Rounded Corners? And we thought it was a really, really cool little device because it really addressed all of the key sort of points that a client might come up with, if you’ve employed this sort of progressive enhancement in your website where you sort of say I’m going to do CSS3 rounded corners and if the person is using an older browser what they’ll see is a square button but I can still make that button look okay, and at the end of the day I’ve saved two or three hours of development time and there’s a number of reasons in here. So do you want to talk a bit about how that came about and what sort of the content and general philosophy of the fact sheet is?

Paul: I mean as with everything I do it came about for purely pragmatic reasons that we were getting frustrated by clients not getting it. There was also a problem that we were having whereby the designers got it, they wrapped their heads around it, they understood obviously the arguments behind it, but then there were project managers and account managers that were talking to clients and they were having trouble justifying it, and it was just — it was turning into a pain in the ass for our projects, and we were finding that it was becoming the single biggest issue that was preventing design sign-off, and we were having to then, you know, the designers would do it obviously the correct way, the way that they know is best practice, then the client would complain about it, and then we’d have to retrofit kind of the old hacks back into the website and it would waste more time and it was just horrible. So, I was in the process of putting together another document which was a document How To Get The Best Work Out of Working With Your Designer, which was a document we were client that essentially taught them how to interact on design, on websites and deal with some common issues that come up, which are published online as well, but I thought why not also do another very simple document that addresses this issue of rounded corners. So essentially what the document does it starts off by explaining what the issue is very simply, it shows some different examples of what it will look like in a more advanced browser, what it would look like in all the versions of IE side-by-side just to show the kind of subtleties of difference which isn’t just rounded corners it’s also drop shadows, it’s subtle formatting differences, that kind of stuff. Then what the rest of the document does in I think it’s about 10 very simple points, a paragraph or two on each point, it goes through different arguments to why this is the approach that isn’t beneficial to us as web designers but is beneficial to the client, right, and I think that’s really important; often we kind of argue things from our perspective, and to be honest why should the client give a monkey’s ass whether it’s best practice for us or whether it looks good in our portfolio or whether it makes our lives easier, it’s really about what benefits it provides them, so that’s what the document does. And the benefits include more time for what matters; if you waste time creating rounded corners, you know, when a project’s on limited time and budget effort is really better allocated to more important things such as understanding business objectives or user testing or something like that, so that’s one point. The second point is it’s designing for a growth audience but in time on older browsers such as IE7 or 8, ultimately it’s going to be counterproductive because those are going to be replaced by more capable browsers such as IE9, so why spend time and money developing for a shrinking market, so that was my second point. I talk about improved site performance; I talk about improving search engine rankings, which to be honest is a little bit of a stretch (laughter).

Louis: Yeah, you draw it on from the performance to the potential tenth of a percent increase in search rankings.

Paul: But clients love that kind of stuff. If you tell them it improves their search engine rankings then great, but let’s be honest, in theory it should make a difference, how much of a difference it makes I don’t want to really dwell on that but I put it in anyway, a little bit naughty of me, so we talk about better search engine rankings, future-proofing your website, easy maintenance and updates, how it opens up more design possibilities. And then right at the end of the document I talk about — I deal with the major issue which is that people come back, ‘well my audience will hate it, they’ll hate the fact that it looks shitty in their browser. And I kind of emphasize that it’s not going to look shit in their browser, you know these differences are only subtle. And the other thing I think clients do is, you know, because you have to explain this process to them, you have to show it to them in different browsers, so then they say oh well it looks better in Safari, and oh it’s going to look crap for the majority of my users, because they’re comparing it to the other version. The thing is, and I think what clients forget is obviously a normal user doesn’t open it up in IE7 and then open it up in Safari and do a side-by-side comparison, so I kind of talk about that and explain that as well. So, it’s just a really short little handy document, only a few pages long, that you can give to a client and it’s deadly simple, and I’ve released it under creative comments so people can do what they want with it and use it I suppose however they want really.

Louis: Yeah, that’s really great. And like we were saying on the podcast, I can definitely see how this would be a really useful tool, I would definitely provide it to anyone that I was building a website for if I was using those techniques, and I don’t see why I wouldn’t because I don’t feel like spending half a day in Photoshop messing with drop shadows.

Paul: Exactly. I mean the other thing I would say, I think the most important thing to do, which is what we’re doing, is to give it out at the beginning of the project before it becomes an issue because once somebody — I mean this is a bit of psychology really, but once somebody states a position like oh I’m unhappy with this design, it’s very hard for them to back down without you actually making some form of change. However, if you give out this document right at the beginning of the project you’re saying, look, this is a common issue, here’s the arguments for it, and that makes it very difficult for a client to then come back over it because nobody likes to ask the dumb questions, you know, if something’s a common issue they don’t want to be the person to ask it. And also you’ve already addressed the issue up front so they’re not kind of wading into something and then not being able to back down over it, so we’ve just started giving it out at the beginning of every project essentially so hat people know up front about these kinds of issues and can explain them.

Louis: So that’s one of the things that I was going to ask, is this something that you’re doing with just about all clients now? Are there any projects where based on the analytics or based on the site audience you can see that it’s a disproportionately large number of IE users and in those cases you opt for the more traditional techniques, or you just jettison that completely?

Paul: No, we haven’t jettisoned it completely; we do take everything on a case-by-case basis. This is our kind of — this is our default approach, okay, so when we submit a proposal it makes the assumption we’re going to take this approach. If when the client then engages us we look through their analytics and we conclude that actually they’ve got a lot of IE7 users or whatever, we then go back and explain the pros and cons whether we take this approach or not, we discuss it with them, if the client then decides well actually they do want and it’s appropriate for them to have rounded corners in IE7 then we’ll happily do that because we’ve looked at the analytics and it seems appropriate, but we will charge an additional charge for it, okay. So we’ve kind of — it’s a decision we can make based on the analytics, but all of our proposals and our costings are based on the fact that we won’t be doing that because in most cases these days it’s not relevant.

Louis: Yeah, outside of perhaps sort of Intranets.

Paul: Yeah, there are always a few exceptions.

Louis: There always will be. Do you find that — I was just speaking recently I think with Jeremy Keith on the podcast, and one of the things he was talking about with having sort of a similar conversation about oh it’s so cool you can do all this stuff really easily now and it feels really fun to get in there and play with code, and I think it was him, podcast listeners will correct me if I’m mistaken and I’m thinking of someone else, who said that it wad doing a lot of his designs in the browser now, and I think that sort of that’s addressed in here, but is that something that you guys are doing as well where you’re kind of moving away from comping everything in Photoshop and starting to work directly in the browser for some designs?

Paul: Yeah, it varies from project to project. I’m really torn over this because I do feel that designing exclusively in the browser in my experience and the experience of what I’ve seen at Headscape, it can lead to quite uninspiring design because I think inevitably whenever you do design you’re limited by the tools that you’re using, whenever you’re doing art you’re limited by the tools you’re using; you know if you’re doing an oil painting it’s going to look different to watercolor, it’s inevitable. And I think that coding directly in the browser does have with it some limitations, we rarely start in the browser. What we tend to do is we tend to start in Photoshop or whatever, actually increasingly we tend to start not even doing a website (laughs), I know that sounds ridiculous, because oftentimes you get so hung up on you’ve got this wireframe which has got all these boxes on and all the rest of it, and you’ve got to worry about navigation and search, all the rest, it kind of limits your creativity, so often we start designing something completely different like a poster. We did this recently on a charity website that we’re doing, and once you got the poster then we kind of compromise it based on the wireframe and all of the other things that make it practical, but it is incredible how that transforms a design into something quite amazing. That’s where we start, however, we very quickly move into the browser to the point now where we don’t even ask the client to signoff on a design concept that they haven’t first seen in the browser. So we get roughly the direction right, the client’s happy with the approximate direction, we maybe only mockup one or two pages, and then we quickly move into the browser and do the rest there. But even that is not always the case, I mean some of our clients because they’ve got such a clearly defined look and feel we just move straight into the browser right off, and actually with Boagworld, with the redesign that I’m doing on Boagworld, the way that I’ve approached on that I’ve done some mood boards to set the kind of feel that I want for the site, and then I’ve got very detailed wireframes, quite designed wireframes but still wireframes, and the combination of those two I feel is enough for me to now leap into the browser and design the rest in the browser. So there’s no specific way of doing things, we’re not tied to doing in specific ways, there are pros and cons to each way, I think it very much depends on the individual project, and also the individual designer, it doesn’t surprise me for a minute that the guys at Clearleft would jump straight into the browser, that’s kind of looking at the style of websites that they produce that seem very appropriate for them, but asking somebody like Mike Kus, who I mentioned earlier, to design straight in the browser would just destroy his whole approach and his whole style for things. And I think oftentimes with issues like this we become very entrenched, designing in the browser’s the right way, designing in Photoshop’s the right way! Actually I think it’s personal taste and that’s fine, you do whatever’s right for you. We kind of float somewhere in the middle and change our minds every five minutes as to which is the best way to do things, you know, that’s fair enough too.

Louis: Absolutely. A lot of that comes from the fact that it’s fairly recent that we have the flexibility to do that, designing a whole website in the browser even five years ago would have been laughable because you couldn’t do anything, you couldn’t get your text, you couldn’t get any of the stylistic elements without going back to Photoshop.

Paul: Yeah, absolutely.

Louis: Yay, us!

Paul: Yay, the future (laughter).

Louis: Absolutely. Alright, well it’s been great talking to you and getting your read on a lot of these things. I know we had a lot of fun talking about the ‘where are my rounded corners’ document, I like the title of it, ‘where are my rounded corners’ because I can totally imagine someone charging into the office and saying where are my rounded corners, even though that’s never going to happen, but it’s a beautiful image of this angry client holding a sheaf of papers in one hand charging into the door (laughter).

Paul: Yeah, they do. It’s where you receive a fax where they’ve printed out your website, have you ever had that?

Louis: I’ll have to admit I have not.

Paul: We’ve had that. They’ve printed out the website, they’ve scribbled notes on it with a circle around the corner going ‘where’s my rounded corner’ then they’ve faxed it through to you.

Louis: Clash of civilizations there.

Paul: Absolutely. I like that way or wording it, yeah, different cultures isn’t it?

Louis: Clearly. It’s been a blast talking to you, Paul, thanks so much for coming on and talking about this stuff. I wish you all the best of luck, we’ll be tuning in to the new season of Boagworld to see how the design progresses, I’m looking forward to seeing the new design, seeing what kind of cool stuff you do with responsive web design and CSS3.

Paul: (Laughs) No pressure then.

Louis: And you know all the HTML5 audio you’re going to be using for your podcast.

Paul: I haven’t even thought about that!

Louis: I’m looking forward to that, it’s going to be a lot of fun, I’ll try it out on my mobile device and see how that works. I’m just trying to lay out the pressure here.

Paul: You are; you are absolutely. You’re terrifying me. You’ve got to remember I haven’t coded anything for flipping ages, the pressure here is immense. I’ll tell you what we are doing is we’re getting a load of different people on the show, I’m hoping to get Ethan, for example, he came up with responsive design and that kind of stuff, it should be good.

Louis: Fantastic. So for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know already I can tell them that they definitely should, Boagworld is sort of the grandfather of web design podcasts, and we’re sort of one of the later generation I guess. So where can people find you this season of Boagworld, your books?

Paul: It’s all at Boagworld.com, and you can get to everything from the podcast to the books to the whole lots on there, and if you go to it, if you’re listening to this a long time in the future, hello future, but also hopefully there will be a new spangly site there as well for you to enjoy.

Louis: And if you’re listening to this and you’re like responsive web design, so 2010.

Paul: Oh no! Don’t say that (laughter)!

Louis: Alright, thanks so much, Paul, it’s been a pleasure.

Paul: Yeah, thank you for having me on.

Louis: Alright, and have yourself a good day, I know it’s pretty early in the morning there.

Paul: I’ve got my whole day ahead of me. Yippie!

Louis: Awesome. Alright.

Paul: Bye.

Louis: Bye Paul.

Theme music by Mike Mella.

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