SitePoint.com

Shane M · Mar 3, 2003, 09:19

Hi gang question. I have been interviewing seo firms for a week now and I keep getting varied responses on key material. Some say maintenace is required, some say the only beneficial aspect of maintenance is reporting (which I can do myself). What do you guys think?

Some use tactics that make me nervous. The most recent one that I interviewed came highly reccommended by some one many of us would probably consider an authority on the suibject (you would probably recognize the name if I told you). They were also rated with 5 stars in a populr seo buyers guide (you probably know the one

). So I am more than a bit uncomfortable with their main technique and I would like some other opinions on the method from you guys.

I know we have some experts around here on SEO. So here goes, I have a site url that they gave me to look at as an example of their seo techniques. I would like to post it, but I am not sure if it is allowed (if a mod could clairify I would appriciate it). If I cant post it pm me and I will give it to you if you want to see it.

Anyhow if you see this site there are two faint little undelined dots on the top left of the home page above the main graphic. If you click on them (sorta hard to do) it takes you to a quasi hidden page that is totally packed with keyword rich links to every product page on the site. Seems like spam to me, but then they are not technically invisible pages, just real hard to find.

The person I spoke with tried to assure me the engines had approved this technique

, but could not produce the supposed letter of approval on demand, had to see if they still had it. So what do you guys think? Opinions appriciated.

aspen · Mar 3, 2003, 09:32

Feel free to post anyone about the company. We don't care. Except I wouldn't make the URL a link. We can copy and paste the URL into the address bar so that they won't be able to find this thread in their referrer logs.

The company that admitted that reporting is really the main value of maintenance sounds pretty honest.

The company that wants to put in the hidden links should be avoided.

icebane · Mar 3, 2003, 09:33

I'm not a moderator, but it should be no problem for you to post the link. People d it all the time to have their sites reviewed...

The method you are describing sounds like spam.
From your description, I'd bet money that Google would ban that website if the site was caught.

aspen · Mar 3, 2003, 09:40

Check out these pages:

http://www.google.com/webmasters/seo.html

http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html (specifically the last section about specific no-no's)

Shane M · Mar 3, 2003, 09:54

here is the site gang
lorainedespres.com

also another of theirs with the same
faucets4less.com
look for the two little dots on the left of the page in the bady.

icebane · Mar 3, 2003, 10:03

Shane M - Thanks for the links.
Those methods are horrible.
It's clearly against Google's rules, and to make matters worse, I don't see that method helping. It's spamming using pointless, unhelpful optimization methods.

Shane M · Mar 3, 2003, 10:13

So I should have asked this question last week. Any recommendations you guys can make for a seo firm that is honest and reasonable? I have a decent budget to market a new site, most is for ppc but I ant to spend some on seo, just need a good company. Lots of "good" companies want 10k a month, thats more than I want to spend for the year. And Aspen thanks for the agreement on the maintenance, glad to hear another opinion on that. Several companies try to tell me its for resubmission, I dont know a lot about seo but i do know you dont resubmit monthly unless you have major content changes. Thanks again all.

Shane M · Mar 3, 2003, 10:23

hehehe, look at this. Third email from them since I questioned her tactics this morning and relayed my discomfort with them.

It was nice speaking with you this morning. I spoke with Bonnie (their expert) and she mentioned that we no longer have that email, but that our pages meet the engine's criteria because:
"Our informational pages are made as static pages in multiple frames. The front frame captures the clients index page. The back frame is keyword rich for the specific engines they are made for. These are not spam or clocking as nothing is hidden. Our gateway pages are nothing more then a page containing links to all informational pages (those dots we add to sites). Yes, they do add to our rankings as every client site, within 3-4 months start to show these pages as top listings. Actually....WebPositionGold is famous for making 'info pages' but I feel these are not very good or useful as they look like a static page with a keyword in a sentence and a link to the index page, so we created our own." When I asked her how we could show you that they are OK, she said the fact that the engines list and rank them, proves that they accept them. Attached is a report from a client of ours, and if you look at the column on the far right that lists the pages - look through for ones that look like this:
happylimo.com/disney-world-taxi-service-fast.html or
happylimo.com/disney-world-taxi-service-fast.html.
You'll notice they are made for specific engines to meet the criteria - that is why some say msn or fast in the page name. Other engines can pick them up as well, but we do design pages specific to the engines. As I mentioned, we have been getting rankings with no trouble for clients with these pages for over 3 years. Is there anything else I can do to increase your comfort level? I'm on my way out soon, but will be back late this afternoon.

In other words we have not been banned yet, therfore our tactics are not harmful or in other words- I Spam, Therefore I Am.

If you look at it that way I guess it means crack dealers are not breaking the law untill thay are caught.

icebane · Mar 3, 2003, 10:28

Tell them their methods go against Google's guidelines, and that's why you feel uncomfortable.

Google uses the word 'hidden' when describing shady methods of SEO, not invisible. I feel that little dots that link to large unimportant pages are hidden.

Google also says you shouldn't clone content.
Ask the firm about their content cloning methods..
http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-ave.html
http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-ot.html
http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-sen.html
http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-won.html
etc. etc.

Shane M · Mar 3, 2003, 10:34

You know all of this really makes me question the validity of Sherpas seo buyers guide. Isnt the point of the guide to help those without the time, knowledge or intrest to find reputable companies? They obviously did not check this company out well as they are definatley spammers. Now I wonder how well I can trust sherpas guide. Waste of money I think now.

--scoot-- · Mar 3, 2003, 10:40

It sounds like the same company (ontheavenues.com) that tried to sell me the exact same crap. They use the exact same periods and other spamming methods. After I turned them down their setup charge came down from $1995 to $895. Makes you wonder if there so called service is worth anything at all.

moospot · Mar 3, 2003, 15:38

Unless you do not have the time, I would recommend doing this yourself. You can also post an ad here in the eBargain Bazaar or Trading Post.

dtracker · Mar 5, 2003, 09:47

Anyways, why create thoses hidden link pages when you can create a simple but efficient sitemap, it's legal and not considered has spam.

Bob Carrick · Mar 5, 2003, 17:44

Search Engine Optimization websites make big claims like guarantying top ten placing for 50 key phrases in the ?top ten? search engines for as little as $199.95 US to as much as $4,495.00 US. One big issue is all the fine print to get them out of having to have you placed in the top ten in the ?right? search engines with the right key phrases. If your site comes up in the top ten for a phrase like ?can we be more specific then this? (7 words) then that counts, but you want phrases with 1 to 4 words and you want your words! Most also use methods such as doorway pages, words in your document that are the same colour as the background so you can put in words over and over without providing any content, etc. Those can, and will, get you removed from search engines.

These SEO professionals tell you the names of their clients but don?t ever seem to give you any examples of what keywords you can search for them under. I wonder why.

You can do it all yourself. Trust me.

Golgotha · Mar 6, 2003, 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtracker

Anyways, why create thoses hidden link pages when you can create a simple but efficient sitemap, it's legal and not considered has spam.

yep, not only that, but those dots are at the expense of the sites presentation- Like two zits right on your face. No need for them to be there. In addition she puts like 50 links on one page. DUMB! But, really, I think her PR tells you everything.

AndyD · Mar 6, 2003, 08:00

Hi guys I have been follwing this thread and I notice dtracker say's

'Anyways, why create thoses hidden link pages when you can create a simple but efficient sitemap, it's legal and not considered has spam.'

Being new to all this can someone give me a quck explantion of how having a site map helps with SEO

Cheers
AndyD

Golgotha · Mar 6, 2003, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyD

Hi guys I have been follwing this thread and I notice

Being new to all this can someone give me a quck explantion of how having a site map helps with SEO

Cheers
AndyD

sure, because then you have a link on all pages to a page (sitemap) that is linked to every other page. So with as little as 2 clicks away you can get to any page in your site. Sitemaps are one of the most effective means of PR distribution.

AndyD · Mar 6, 2003, 08:41

Thanks Golgotha Now I understand. But what's PR distribuiton ( I know bear with me)

AndyD

Dan Morgan · Mar 6, 2003, 08:49

Excuse me if I am being ignorant, but if your sitemap had a LOT of links on it (i.e. large site) then the PR given to each of those would be quite small and discardable. 1 page - 100 links, each linked page gets 100th of the PR?

Would that be true? It certainly seems that the method the original site in context here is using wouldnt benefit from PR that way. Or is it a purely non PR related thing?

Dan

aspen · Mar 6, 2003, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenplake

Excuse me if I am being ignorant, but if your sitemap had a LOT of links on it (i.e. large site) then the PR given to each of those would be quite small and discardable. 1 page - 100 links, each linked page gets 100th of the PR?

Would that be true? It certainly seems that the method the original site in context here is using wouldnt benefit from PR that way. Or is it a purely non PR related thing?

Dan

Yes, that is true.

But the PR is not discardable.

You can't really create PR, only move it around.

What the site in question is doing isn't really related to PR. It is related more to doorway pages and whatnot.

Bob Carrick · Mar 6, 2003, 09:20

And door way pages are not appriciated by most engines. I think proper site navigation and links is much more important. But that is my opinion.

Shane M · Mar 6, 2003, 09:37

Hi all. Needless to say I did not hire the company in question. Her email attempts to convince me that the methods they use are acceptable have stopped. I have been tempted to report them to save anyone who may be less informed than we are from making the mistake of hiring them, I may yet do this. Anyway i have hired another company that is much more suited to my needs and dont use any spam techniques.

Shane M · Mar 6, 2003, 09:39

BTW, I love this new quick reply box! The only thing I miss from the old forums is the ability to hover over the persons sitepoint (rank?) and see how many posts they have made. Back to the topic.

Bob Carrick · Mar 6, 2003, 10:14

Number of posts should not change how you take them.

Dan Morgan · Mar 6, 2003, 12:05

Ah thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspen

You can't really create PR, only move it around.

But if you added a page to your site, which was spidered and given a PR of say 4, and linked back to other pages, wouldnt that be creating PR? Just trying to clear things up in my head.

Dan

Mar 3, 2003, 09:19	#1
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	What do you think of this seo technique and other questions? Hi gang question. I have been interviewing seo firms for a week now and I keep getting varied responses on key material. Some say maintenace is required, some say the only beneficial aspect of maintenance is reporting (which I can do myself). What do you guys think? Some use tactics that make me nervous. The most recent one that I interviewed came highly reccommended by some one many of us would probably consider an authority on the suibject (you would probably recognize the name if I told you). They were also rated with 5 stars in a populr seo buyers guide (you probably know the one ). So I am more than a bit uncomfortable with their main technique and I would like some other opinions on the method from you guys. I know we have some experts around here on SEO. So here goes, I have a site url that they gave me to look at as an example of their seo techniques. I would like to post it, but I am not sure if it is allowed (if a mod could clairify I would appriciate it). If I cant post it pm me and I will give it to you if you want to see it. Anyhow if you see this site there are two faint little undelined dots on the top left of the home page above the main graphic. If you click on them (sorta hard to do) it takes you to a quasi hidden page that is totally packed with keyword rich links to every product page on the site. Seems like spam to me, but then they are not technically invisible pages, just real hard to find. The person I spoke with tried to assure me the engines had approved this technique , but could not produce the supposed letter of approval on demand, had to see if they still had it. So what do you guys think? Opinions appriciated. Last edited by Matt Mickiewicz; Mar 19, 2003 at 19:48.

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Mar 3, 2003, 09:32	#2
aspen Serial Publisher Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: East Lansing, MI USA Posts: 13,285	Feel free to post anyone about the company. We don't care. Except I wouldn't make the URL a link. We can copy and paste the URL into the address bar so that they won't be able to find this thread in their referrer logs. The company that admitted that reporting is really the main value of maintenance sounds pretty honest. The company that wants to put in the hidden links should be avoided.

Mar 3, 2003, 09:33	#3
icebane SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 168	I'm not a moderator, but it should be no problem for you to post the link. People d it all the time to have their sites reviewed... The method you are describing sounds like spam. From your description, I'd bet money that Google would ban that website if the site was caught.

Mar 3, 2003, 09:40	#4
aspen Serial Publisher Join Date: Aug 1999 Location: East Lansing, MI USA Posts: 13,285	Check out these pages: http://www.google.com/webmasters/seo.html http://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html (specifically the last section about specific no-no's)

Mar 3, 2003, 09:54	#5
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	here is the site gang lorainedespres.com also another of theirs with the same faucets4less.com look for the two little dots on the left of the page in the bady.

Mar 3, 2003, 10:03	#6
icebane SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 168	Shane M - Thanks for the links. Those methods are horrible. It's clearly against Google's rules, and to make matters worse, I don't see that method helping. It's spamming using pointless, unhelpful optimization methods.

Mar 3, 2003, 10:13	#7
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	So I should have asked this question last week. Any recommendations you guys can make for a seo firm that is honest and reasonable? I have a decent budget to market a new site, most is for ppc but I ant to spend some on seo, just need a good company. Lots of "good" companies want 10k a month, thats more than I want to spend for the year. And Aspen thanks for the agreement on the maintenance, glad to hear another opinion on that. Several companies try to tell me its for resubmission, I dont know a lot about seo but i do know you dont resubmit monthly unless you have major content changes. Thanks again all.

Mar 3, 2003, 10:23	#8
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	hehehe, look at this. Third email from them since I questioned her tactics this morning and relayed my discomfort with them. It was nice speaking with you this morning. I spoke with Bonnie (their expert) and she mentioned that we no longer have that email, but that our pages meet the engine's criteria because: "Our informational pages are made as static pages in multiple frames. The front frame captures the clients index page. The back frame is keyword rich for the specific engines they are made for. These are not spam or clocking as nothing is hidden. Our gateway pages are nothing more then a page containing links to all informational pages (those dots we add to sites). Yes, they do add to our rankings as every client site, within 3-4 months start to show these pages as top listings. Actually....WebPositionGold is famous for making 'info pages' but I feel these are not very good or useful as they look like a static page with a keyword in a sentence and a link to the index page, so we created our own." When I asked her how we could show you that they are OK, she said the fact that the engines list and rank them, proves that they accept them. Attached is a report from a client of ours, and if you look at the column on the far right that lists the pages - look through for ones that look like this: happylimo.com/disney-world-taxi-service-fast.html or happylimo.com/disney-world-taxi-service-fast.html. You'll notice they are made for specific engines to meet the criteria - that is why some say msn or fast in the page name. Other engines can pick them up as well, but we do design pages specific to the engines. As I mentioned, we have been getting rankings with no trouble for clients with these pages for over 3 years. Is there anything else I can do to increase your comfort level? I'm on my way out soon, but will be back late this afternoon. In other words we have not been banned yet, therfore our tactics are not harmful or in other words- I Spam, Therefore I Am. If you look at it that way I guess it means crack dealers are not breaking the law untill thay are caught.

Mar 3, 2003, 10:28	#9
icebane SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 168	Tell them their methods go against Google's guidelines, and that's why you feel uncomfortable. Google uses the word 'hidden' when describing shady methods of SEO, not invisible. I feel that little dots that link to large unimportant pages are hidden. Google also says you shouldn't clone content. Ask the firm about their content cloning methods.. http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-ave.html http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-ot.html http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-sen.html http://www.lorainedespres.com/loraine-despres-won.html etc. etc.

Mar 3, 2003, 10:34	#10
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	You know all of this really makes me question the validity of Sherpas seo buyers guide. Isnt the point of the guide to help those without the time, knowledge or intrest to find reputable companies? They obviously did not check this company out well as they are definatley spammers. Now I wonder how well I can trust sherpas guide. Waste of money I think now.

Mar 3, 2003, 10:40	#11
--scoot-- SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: az Posts: 28	It sounds like the same company (ontheavenues.com) that tried to sell me the exact same crap. They use the exact same periods and other spamming methods. After I turned them down their setup charge came down from $1995 to $895. Makes you wonder if there so called service is worth anything at all.

Mar 3, 2003, 15:38	#12
moospot Xbox why have you forsaken me? Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 3,636	Unless you do not have the time, I would recommend doing this yourself. You can also post an ad here in the eBargain Bazaar or Trading Post.

Mar 5, 2003, 09:47	#13
dtracker SitePoint Addict Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 286	Anyways, why create thoses hidden link pages when you can create a simple but efficient sitemap, it's legal and not considered has spam.

Mar 5, 2003, 17:44	#14
Bob Carrick SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 177	Search Engine Optimization websites make big claims like guarantying top ten placing for 50 key phrases in the ?top ten? search engines for as little as $199.95 US to as much as $4,495.00 US. One big issue is all the fine print to get them out of having to have you placed in the top ten in the ?right? search engines with the right key phrases. If your site comes up in the top ten for a phrase like ?can we be more specific then this? (7 words) then that counts, but you want phrases with 1 to 4 words and you want your words! Most also use methods such as doorway pages, words in your document that are the same colour as the background so you can put in words over and over without providing any content, etc. Those can, and will, get you removed from search engines. These SEO professionals tell you the names of their clients but don?t ever seem to give you any examples of what keywords you can search for them under. I wonder why. You can do it all yourself. Trust me.

Mar 6, 2003, 08:00	#16
AndyD SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: 13 miles off the French Coast Posts: 97	Hi guys I have been follwing this thread and I notice dtracker say's 'Anyways, why create thoses hidden link pages when you can create a simple but efficient sitemap, it's legal and not considered has spam.' Being new to all this can someone give me a quck explantion of how having a site map helps with SEO Cheers AndyD

Mar 6, 2003, 08:41	#18
AndyD SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: 13 miles off the French Coast Posts: 97	Thanks Golgotha Now I understand. But what's PR distribuiton ( I know bear with me) AndyD

Mar 6, 2003, 08:49	#19
Dan Morgan Gone! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Witty Location Parody Posts: 4,806	Excuse me if I am being ignorant, but if your sitemap had a LOT of links on it (i.e. large site) then the PR given to each of those would be quite small and discardable. 1 page - 100 links, each linked page gets 100th of the PR? Would that be true? It certainly seems that the method the original site in context here is using wouldnt benefit from PR that way. Or is it a purely non PR related thing? Dan

Mar 6, 2003, 09:20	#21
Bob Carrick SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 177	And door way pages are not appriciated by most engines. I think proper site navigation and links is much more important. But that is my opinion.

Mar 6, 2003, 09:37	#22
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	Hi all. Needless to say I did not hire the company in question. Her email attempts to convince me that the methods they use are acceptable have stopped. I have been tempted to report them to save anyone who may be less informed than we are from making the mistake of hiring them, I may yet do this. Anyway i have hired another company that is much more suited to my needs and dont use any spam techniques.

Mar 6, 2003, 09:39	#23
Shane M SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 294	BTW, I love this new quick reply box! The only thing I miss from the old forums is the ability to hover over the persons sitepoint (rank?) and see how many posts they have made. Back to the topic.

Mar 6, 2003, 10:14	#24
Bob Carrick SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 177	Number of posts should not change how you take them.