PHP vs Python

[hotnuts21]

Now I found out recently that

a good chunk of Google is written in Python, a slow semi-compiled language

2 bits of news to me firstly google is written in python and secondly python is slow!!

A friend of mine who has been writing software and working for a large development company for some years now, all they use is open source software so to give the client value for money and for all the other good things about OS.

For a lot of CMS work they use Zope a very powerfull and clever CMS based on the Python language, and have tried to get me to use it a few times, I have dabbled but untill i can php inside out im gonna leave python well alone

Anyway as a cms I have found EZ publish a very good product and I was wondering basically what people think is better and why Ez or Zope ?

I would like to know what people think of the technology behind both and what benefits or downfalls both have.

Your thoughts please!!

[Hartmann]

I'd like to know where you read that. Yes Google is partially written in Python, but slow, I mean, have you used Google?

In my experience with Python the only time I noticed slowdowns was when I programmed quickly and didn't use the proper steps to keep my code clean, fast, and readable. The other reason Python code would be slow is when it is doing a lot of calculations or system I/O. Other than that Python works just as good as any other language.

Zope is actually a really good CMS and site management piece of software.

Anyway, just give Python a chance. It is easy to install and uninstall if you don't like it.

[hotnuts21]

I cant for the life of me remember where I read that now, I think it was in the google seo forum, but I am not sure!!

I am not against either piece of software I am learning Ez publish but I am having a few problems I will eventually move over to zope. I have played with plone which is based on zope and it is excellent.

I really started this thread as php and ez publish are very well known and talked about but python and zope are not and I really wanted to start a debate on which one is best or which one I should really concentrate on.

The big drawback is that a lot of hosts, mine included still do not and will not install/support python so its a no go from the start.

Come on people give us your thoughts

[Hartmann]

Python and Zope have their own little communities. I think the reason for its lack of notariety is because of something you stated, hosts don't install it. I have only found a handful of hosts that don't run Python and the reasoning behind it is because people don't need/want it. So it is a catch 22.

Let me stop and say it here... Python is run as CGI (although there are Apache/Python modules) and it acts a lot like Perl and has come from the same type of needs system. It was originally meant as a tool to automate tasks on *NIX/Linux systems (much like Perl).

I cannot say which of the two are best because that is an opinion. Both stack up pretty evenly (you can do most of the things you do in PHP with Python).

If you are a big OOP programmer then Python might be the way to go. However with PHP5 that could all change.

I only rarely use Python for web apps and the reasons being are that:
1) Hosts don't install it
2) Hosts don't have the MySQL libraries built in
3) I have the code already in PHP, why spend time porting it.

I do however write a lot of client side software with Python because I find it easier than pulling out C/C++ to write a small application and since it is cross platform there isn't a whole lot I have to do to make it work on other types of OSs.

[hotnuts21]

So as far as learning a CMS inside out, which one would it be Ez pub or zope/plone

[Hartmann]

Well I like EzPublish and I feel that Zope is bloated for my needs. So EzPublish for me.

[hotnuts21]

One thing I do like is that ez publish has a lot of example sites that are good but the plone example sites list
NASA
NATO
a UK police force
CBS new york and more. Now thats good PR

[anode]

The "slow" comment was mine, and is taken a bit out of context(open source search engine thread.) Of course, as anyone that knows me knows, Python is my language of choice. That doesn't make it any faster, but as Hartmann said, it's fast enough for most problem domains.

Originally Posted by Hartmann

Let me stop and say it here... Python is run as CGI (although there are Apache/Python modules) and it acts a lot like Perl and has come from the same type of needs system. It was originally meant as a tool to automate tasks on *NIX/Linux systems (much like Perl).

This is not really that accurate. Most Python web frameworks either use their own server (Zope comes to mind, although it can run behind Apache) or embed themselves in Apache(mod_python, as an example.) With that said, there is unfortunately no one single standard for Python based web apps.

[hotnuts21]

The "slow" comment was mine, and is taken a bit out of context

Thanks for clearing that up, it just made me think a bit and so i put my thoughts down in a thread, I wanted a debate hence the title and its slowly happening. I used your comment with a bit of artisitic licence as hartmann pointed out google isnt exactly slow

I think you also said its a semi compiled language, but I am right in thinking that it can be used fully compiled cant it?

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by anode

The "slow" comment was mine, and is taken a bit out of context(open source search engine thread.) Of course, as anyone that knows me knows, Python is my language of choice. That doesn't make it any faster, but as Hartmann said, it's fast enough for most problem domains.

This is not really that accurate. Most Python web frameworks either use their own server (Zope comes to mind, although it can run behind Apache) or embed themselves in Apache(mod_python, as an example.) With that said, there is unfortunately no one single standard for Python based web apps.

Yeah, that was what I was trying to say... unfortunately it didn't come out that way

I will say that mod_python is probably the de facto standard for myself. I won't use a host that has Python but a different implementation, however, that is personal preference.

[coo_t2]

I've dabbled in python a small bit. My impression with it is that it's a better general purpose language than either Perl or PHP.
And I think Perl is a better general purpose language than PHP.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

--ed

[anode]

This would probably be a good time to drop a link to the Python Web Framework Shootout.

Originally Posted by hotnuts21

I think you also said its a semi compiled language, but I am right in thinking that it can be used fully compiled cant it?

You can compile it down to C for desktop apps, but I can't think of a reason to do that for web stuff. A more likely (and common) scenario is re-writing bottleneck modules in C.

[Hartmann]

Great link anode!

I agree that compiling Python to C for web apps is a little odd and I haven't done much compiling to C for desktop apps either. But I know it has been done, especially when desktop speed is an issue.

[coo_t2]

Originally Posted by anode

You can compile it down to C for desktop apps, but I can't think of a reason to do that for web stuff. A more likely (and common) scenario is re-writing bottleneck modules in C.

Speaking of desktop apps. Have you done anything with
wxPython ?
That is one of the impressive projects in the python community.
Not only can you easily write nice GUI apps, but there is a large, helpful user community, which is something that wxPerl is missing IMHO.

--ed

[anode]

Originally Posted by coo_t2

Speaking of desktop apps. Have you done anything with
wxPython ?
That is one of the impressive projects in the python community.
Not only can you easily write nice GUI apps, but there is a large, helpful user community, which is something that wxPerl is missing IMHO.

I've done a bit of messing around with it, but I'm too much of a Mac GUI snob to give it serious thought yet (the Mac version is a bit behind the others at the moment and higher standards apply regardless.) PyOBjC has been seeing the most of my GUI tinkering.

[hotnuts21]

Now im lost :s

[Hartmann]

I do most of my GUI work in wxPython, just because I used the wxWindows with C++ so the library was easy for me to pick up. I think it is probably one the faster cross-platform GUI libraries which is another good reason to try it out.

There are some really cool tools for wxPython (wxDesigner) that allow you to create the GUI much like you would create one in Visual Studio, using RAD. The tool isn't free but in my opinion it's worth the $$$.

[pata]

I'm really interested in this thread. I just got started with Python mainly because I needed to write a watch script (for a folder) to put in a cron job and the only scripting language I knew was PHP. Unfortunately, only linux has php on the command line and my development machine (and everything else machine) is a Powerbook Titanium running Mac OS X. And also, PHP is not a good language for the sort of script I needed. So I looked at Python and was awed by its ease and power. I'm just a beginner in it, but I like it quite a bit, though I hate the syntax (no curly braces, no end of lines, etc).

For you mac guys I suggest MacPython. Not only does it install a higher version of Python than the one that comes with Jaguar (2.2), but it also comes with a nice bare-bones IDE which includes debugging and a secret syntax coloring feature (the latter not very robust, but better than nothing).

I'd like to get more into building GUIs with it, any suggestions?