SitePoint.com

cyberbird · Dec 11, 2008, 21:16

Hi,

I bid the minimum price on an auction. It was accepted. I expected to either be outbid or win the auction.

I have just checked my email to see if I'd won and see that the auction has been extended and that the reserve has not been met.

I don't remember seeing that the reserve had not been met when I bid.

How can I find out whether the reserve has been changed or not?

Also, does the seller also have the option to wait until the extension runs out and then reduce the reserve price so that my bid becomes the winner? If so it sort of leaves me in a state of limbo? I can't even use my money to go and buy something else.

cyberbird · Dec 14, 2008, 09:26

As suspected, the reserve seems to have been dropped so it looks like I am going to win with my original bid.

The trouble is I find this whole process of extending the auction and increasing and decreasing the reserve price unfair on a bidder so no longer want to proceed with the purchase. As far as I'm concerned my bid was based on the auction finishing on a particular day.

Where do I stand on this? What can I do if I do not pay and the seller gives me negative feedback?

One thing I didn't mention is that the seller contacted me after extending the auction to tell me he had done this as other people were showing interest.

I must admit I'm surprised sellers can extend auctions and change reserve prices. How does this fit with the rule that says a seller must sell if their reserve price is met? It seems as though they can just keep extending and setting higher reserves to avoid this.

Any advice appreciated.

petertdavis · Dec 14, 2008, 10:10

I agree. Sellers shouldn't be allowed to change the terms after they've accepted a bid.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 16, 2008, 18:32

I am the seller being discussed in this thread and I don't mind admitting that and giving my opinion on the matter, so here it goes...

When you place a bid on an auction then you are stating that you are willing to pay that amount for the site. It is legally binding and must be paid if you win. When you go to place your bid you have no idea what the reserve is or if you will eventually be outbid. You must expect to win with the bid you put in. Why would you ever bid on an auction and expect not to meet the reserve or expect to be outbid?

Let's say the minimum bid is $100 and you bid $100 and the reserve was also set at $100. If nobody outbids you then you won. You didn't know if the reserve was going to be higher when you placed the bid and you still placed it will full intentions of buying.

So why does it matter if a seller has a higher reserve and then decides they are willing to accept a lower amount so they lower the reserve to meet the current highest bid? You placed the bid so you stated you are willing to pay that much for the site. The reserve is there for the sellers, not the buyers.

Plus, it clearly states in the rules that the reserve price can be lowered at any time during the auction. It also states that it cannot be increased once there are bids, and I never did increase it. It's not even possible to do even if I tried.

The same holds true for the length of the auction. Your auction can be up to 30 days so what is wrong with extending it to 10 days if you started at 7 days? It shouldn't make any difference to the current bidders. You already put in your bid which states you are willing to buy for that price whether the auction ends today or in 30 days.

Also, I did not wait until the end of the auction to lower the reserve or extend it. Both were done in advance. I also emailed the bidder to let them know that I extended it.

No rules were broken in this auction. Everything that was done is clearly stated in the Sitepoint Marketplace auction rules that it is allowed.

Furthermore, I even told the winner (cyberbird) in a message earlier today that I would take $25 off the winning price just to be nice about this whole thing since they apparently has some issues with it, which I absolutely did not have to do. Haven't heard back from them yet though.

And in response to the comment about feedback...

Even after all of this I will give positive feedback to the winner (cyberbird) as long as I am paid for the site by tomorrow (Wednesday) night. That would be 3 days after the auction end. I hope that positive feedback will also be left for me as I have communicated with you on this matter and have done nothing wrong.

cyberbird · Dec 17, 2008, 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trent Brownrigg

When you place a bid on an auction then you are stating that you are willing to pay that amount for the site. It is legally binding and must be paid if you win. When you go to place your bid you have no idea what the reserve is or if you will eventually be outbid. You must expect to win with the bid you put in. Why would you ever bid on an auction and expect not to meet the reserve or expect to be outbid?

Let's say the minimum bid is $100 and you bid $100 and the reserve was also set at $100. If nobody outbids you then you won. You didn't know if the reserve was going to be higher when you placed the bid and you still placed it will full intentions of buying.

So why does it matter if a seller has a higher reserve and then decides they are willing to accept a lower amount so they lower the reserve to meet the current highest bid? You placed the bid so you stated you are willing to pay that much for the site. The reserve is there for the sellers, not the buyers.

Plus, it clearly states in the rules that the reserve price can be lowered at any time during the auction. It also states that it cannot be increased once there are bids, and I never did increase it. It's not even possible to do even if I tried.

Well actually the rules also state that "If the reserve price has NOT been met, it can be lowered at any time during the auction period, BUT IT MUST STILL BE ABOVE THE HIGHEST ACCEPTED BID (i.e. it cannot be lowered below the current highest accepted bid).". The capitalisation is not mine.

Quote:

The same holds true for the length of the auction. Your auction can be up to 30 days so what is wrong with extending it to 10 days if you started at 7 days? It shouldn't make any difference to the current bidders. You already put in your bid which states you are willing to buy for that price whether the auction ends today or in 30 days.

The end date does matter because that is the time you expect to know whether you've won or not. The rules state nothing about an auction being able to be extended other than if there is a bid in the last 4 hours. A bid is made, in my opinion, on the terms existing when the bid is made. This includes the end time of the auction.

As a bidder, how are you supposed to know what is going on if the auction can be extended at the will of the seller? If you take part in a 7 day auction you expect to know whether you've won at the end of that period so you can plan your time and money. Whilst in limbo I took the risk and bought other sites which I didn't want to miss out on, so no longer wanted to buy the site I bid on here.

Quote:

Also, I did not wait until the end of the auction to lower the reserve or extend it. Both were done in advance. I also emailed the bidder to let them know that I extended it.

Yes, the day after extending it.

Quote:

No rules were broken in this auction. Everything that was done is clearly stated in the Sitepoint Marketplace auction rules that it is allowed.

Yes, rules have been broken. See my earlier point about reducing the bid.

Quote:

Furthermore, I even told the winner (cyberbird) in a message earlier today that I would take $25 off the winning price just to be nice about this whole thing since they apparently has some issues with it, which I absolutely did not have to do. Haven't heard back from them yet though.

I live in the UK. I am dealing with this at first sight of it.

Quote:

And in response to the comment about feedback...

Even after all of this I will give positive feedback to the winner (cyberbird) as long as I am paid for the site by tomorrow (Wednesday) night. That would be 3 days after the auction end. I hope that positive feedback will also be left for me as I have communicated with you on this matter and have done nothing wrong.

Feedback is my main concern as I will want to buy sites on here in the future. I am currently in communication with sitepoint support on this issue (and clarification of the rules) and will ask them to remove any negative feedback due to the seller not keeping to the rules. The problem though, is support are located in Australia and because of the time difference, turnaround takes 24 hours minimum. They have failed to reply to my last email so I will send another today, but it will be this time tomorrow before I have a chance to see their reply.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 17, 2008, 10:10

Once a bid is placed the system will NOT allow the seller to increase the reserve, edit the auction details, or do some other things. However, it WILL allow the seller to lower the reserve, increase the auction length and other things like that. So, if it allows you to do those things then how can they be against the rules?

Just because you say the rules were broken does not mean they were. And I will admit that just because I say the rules weren't broken does not mean they weren't. I have read the rules many times and I see nothing that states I have done anything wrong. The only people that can tell us for sure is the Sitepoint admin.

You say you are in contact with Sitepoint about this and so am I. We can go back on forth on this forever amongst ourselves but the only way to get it resolved is to let them decide, so let's just wait for them to give us the answers.

Quote:

Feedback is my main concern as I will want to buy sites on here in the future. I am currently in communication with sitepoint support on this issue (and clarification of the rules) and will ask them to remove any negative feedback due to the seller not keeping to the rules.

I agree that feedback is a concern. I am also in contact with Sitepoint about this and awaiting their reply. I will also ask them to remove any negative feedback, or take any other action necessary, because a buyer did not pay on a winning bid. As I stated I will not leave negative feedback unless Sitepoint finds that I am right on this issue and you still do not pay.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 17, 2008, 20:55

Cyberbird,

Here is the reply that I just received from Sitepoint support...

Quote:

Hi Trent

It appears that your winning bidder is trying to get out of the sale.

I have told him that if he bids on an auction then he is showing intent to purchase the site and cannot complain if a bid he places on the auction does indeed buy the site.

I have assured him that you have done nothing wrong

You can now legally pursue him regarding the sale.

Kind Regards

Nonie
SitePoint Customer Support

I also PM'ed it to you. Hopefully that resolves this issue and we can move forward with the transaction.

Thank you.

Trent

cyberbird · Dec 18, 2008, 01:48

And this is what they have said to me:

Quote:

Hi John

An auction holder can reduce the Reserve price before they accept a bid, but not afterwards.

If you had made a bid on the auction then you are showing intent to buy that site and cannot withdraw from winning the site as you have accepted that you are legally bound if you win the auction.

Kind Regards

Kind of different to what they have said to you isn't it?

They must think you reduced the reserve price before you accepted my bid which isn't the case. I have a screenshot showing a $500 bid with 'reserve not met' so you obviously reduced the reserve after accepting my bid.

I'm afraid this needs clarifying still. Support seem to be telling you one thing and me another.

The rule is there for a reason and that reason is that somebody who thinks they have not won an auction, because they have not met the reserve, should not later be told that they have indeed won the auction. It's obvious really.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 18, 2008, 11:26

Yes, that is different.

However, I don't see how they can't know that the reserve was lowered after you bid on it. If I lowered it before you bid then you would have never known and there would not have been any issue with it. It makes no sense otherwise.

Also, I never told them that I lowered the reserve before you bid. And I did admit to them that I lowered the reserve and extended the auction. I didn't try to hide anything from them.

I have all the communications saved between you and me as well as between sitepoint and me in case their is any dispute on what has been said.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 18, 2008, 11:33

One more thing...

In your original post above you said this:

Quote:

I don't remember seeing that the reserve had not been met when I bid.

But in your most recent post you said this:

Quote:

I have a screenshot showing a $500 bid with 'reserve not met' so you obviously reduced the reserve after accepting my bid.

A little contradiction in those two statements isn't there?

Chris Corbyn · Dec 22, 2008, 14:55

Hi Guys,

I'd just like to chime in here and clarify what our rules are.

When a bid is placed, the bidder is agreeing that they are willing to buy at the price bid.

A seller has to list an end time between 1 and 30 days when they create an auction. They also have to specify a minimum bid and a reserve. These CAN be changed during the course of an auction, provided the following criteria are met:

1) The reserve price MUST always be higher than the minimum bid
2) The reserve price MUST always be higher than the current highest bid
3) The end time cannot be more than 30 days, since this is the maximum permitted time for an auction to run*

* Note that in the closing 4 hours of an auction, bids placed will cause the auction to be extended so that no less than 4 hours remain after the last bid placed. This is to prevent the scenario bidders face on eBay where bid sniping occurs at the close of an auction. We want the other bidders involved to have at least some chance to respond.

Feedback cannot be removed so think carefully before leaving feedback. You do not have to leave feedback and if you think this is mostly down to a misunderstanding it's probably in both of your interests to move on without leaving feedback.

@Trent Brownrigg, I have sent you a private message regarding your auction and what you can do from here.

Chris Corbyn · Dec 22, 2008, 15:00

I'd also like to add, regarding feedback, you can leave a neutral which does not affect your feedback score. Probably a wise thing to do in the case of a misunderstanding.

cyberbird · Dec 22, 2008, 16:18

Hi Chris,

Thanks for commenting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Corbyn

2) The reserve price MUST always be higher than the current highest bid

Well this was not the case. The reserve was reduced by Trent to below the current highest bid. The bidding system appears not to work in accordance with the rules.

I sent the screenshot to SitePoint support demonstrating that my $500 bid did not meet the reserve and then later the $500 bid won the auction.

Trent also gave Sitepoint support this information.

Yet support have come back to him saying that the auction proceeded in accordance with the rules and that Trent can legally persue me for the sale. Because of this I paid Trent for the site and am not happy about it because you are now saying that the auction did not proceed according to the rules.

cyberbird · Dec 22, 2008, 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trent Brownrigg

One more thing...

In your original post above you said this:

But in your most recent post you said this:

A little contradiction in those two statements isn't there?

Just spotted this post and thought I must reply.

There is no contradiction. The comment about not spotting that the reserve had not been met was when I made my bid. The screenshot came later once I spotted that the auction said 'reserve not met'.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 22, 2008, 16:37

Thanks for the reply Chris.

I think cyberbird and I have this worked out and have put it behind us.

I did leave positive feedback for him. There was a misunderstanding and those do happen sometimes, so I have no hard feelings. He has paid me for the site, I have transferred the domain and site files to him, and we are in the process of getting it set up right now.

I think this issue is now closed.

Thanks again,
Trent

cyberbird · Dec 22, 2008, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trent Brownrigg

I think this issue is now closed.

I would prefer to get to the bottom of this. If SitePoint are prepared to do the decent thing and compensate me for the money I paid, you can have the site back and we'll both be happy.

Trent Brownrigg · Dec 22, 2008, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberbird

I would prefer to get to the bottom of this. If SitePoint are prepared to do the decent thing and compensate me for the money I paid, you can have the site back and we'll both be happy.

Well, that's between you and Sitepoint if it's what you want to try and do.

At this point I am happy, and as far as I am concerned the transaction is over and the issue is closed.

I have saved all the emails and private messages between you and me, and all of them between sitepoint support/staff and me. I have also taken screenshots of various things that I think would be important to this issue if I ever needed them. So, if there's anything that is needed from me, I have it documented very well.

Chris Corbyn · Dec 22, 2008, 17:20

Ok guys, I have contacted you both by private message to try and bring some closure to this. If you could contact Nonie at support, or respond to my private messages if have any further queries that would be greatly appreciated. We will respond to you both.

We appreciate that this has not been a fun experience for either of you and we apologize for the problems you've had.

Chris Corbyn · Dec 23, 2008, 03:04

Following a discussion with both parties involved here I'm happy to say that this issue has been resolved amicably.

I spent this morning (Australian Eastern Standard Time) looking through the logic in our code regarding this rule and did find a hole that would have allowed a seller to lower the reserve as low as the minimum bid, with no restriction regarding the current highest bid. A seller could easily do this without knowing about the rules.

We made a release very soon after which closed this loophole so this will not happen again. Both parties have been aware of this.

Dec 11, 2008, 21:16	#1
cyberbird SitePoint Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	auction extended Hi, I bid the minimum price on an auction. It was accepted. I expected to either be outbid or win the auction. I have just checked my email to see if I'd won and see that the auction has been extended and that the reserve has not been met. I don't remember seeing that the reserve had not been met when I bid. How can I find out whether the reserve has been changed or not? Also, does the seller also have the option to wait until the extension runs out and then reduce the reserve price so that my bid becomes the winner? If so it sort of leaves me in a state of limbo? I can't even use my money to go and buy something else. Last edited by cyberbird; Dec 12, 2008 at 05:34. Reason: Added extra question at end

Dec 18, 2008, 11:26	#9
Trent Brownrigg SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 42	Yes, that is different. However, I don't see how they can't know that the reserve was lowered after you bid on it. If I lowered it before you bid then you would have never known and there would not have been any issue with it. It makes no sense otherwise. Also, I never told them that I lowered the reserve before you bid. And I did admit to them that I lowered the reserve and extended the auction. I didn't try to hide anything from them. I have all the communications saved between you and me as well as between sitepoint and me in case their is any dispute on what has been said. Last edited by Trent Brownrigg; Dec 18, 2008 at 11:28. Reason: added the last sentence

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Dec 14, 2008, 09:26	#2
cyberbird SitePoint Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	As suspected, the reserve seems to have been dropped so it looks like I am going to win with my original bid. The trouble is I find this whole process of extending the auction and increasing and decreasing the reserve price unfair on a bidder so no longer want to proceed with the purchase. As far as I'm concerned my bid was based on the auction finishing on a particular day. Where do I stand on this? What can I do if I do not pay and the seller gives me negative feedback? One thing I didn't mention is that the seller contacted me after extending the auction to tell me he had done this as other people were showing interest. I must admit I'm surprised sellers can extend auctions and change reserve prices. How does this fit with the rule that says a seller must sell if their reserve price is met? It seems as though they can just keep extending and setting higher reserves to avoid this. Any advice appreciated.

Dec 14, 2008, 10:10	#3
petertdavis Intoxicated with the madness Join Date: May 2002 Location: New England Posts: 8,830	I agree. Sellers shouldn't be allowed to change the terms after they've accepted a bid.

Dec 16, 2008, 18:32	#4
Trent Brownrigg SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 42	I am the seller being discussed in this thread and I don't mind admitting that and giving my opinion on the matter, so here it goes... When you place a bid on an auction then you are stating that you are willing to pay that amount for the site. It is legally binding and must be paid if you win. When you go to place your bid you have no idea what the reserve is or if you will eventually be outbid. You must expect to win with the bid you put in. Why would you ever bid on an auction and expect not to meet the reserve or expect to be outbid? Let's say the minimum bid is $100 and you bid $100 and the reserve was also set at $100. If nobody outbids you then you won. You didn't know if the reserve was going to be higher when you placed the bid and you still placed it will full intentions of buying. So why does it matter if a seller has a higher reserve and then decides they are willing to accept a lower amount so they lower the reserve to meet the current highest bid? You placed the bid so you stated you are willing to pay that much for the site. The reserve is there for the sellers, not the buyers. Plus, it clearly states in the rules that the reserve price can be lowered at any time during the auction. It also states that it cannot be increased once there are bids, and I never did increase it. It's not even possible to do even if I tried. The same holds true for the length of the auction. Your auction can be up to 30 days so what is wrong with extending it to 10 days if you started at 7 days? It shouldn't make any difference to the current bidders. You already put in your bid which states you are willing to buy for that price whether the auction ends today or in 30 days. Also, I did not wait until the end of the auction to lower the reserve or extend it. Both were done in advance. I also emailed the bidder to let them know that I extended it. No rules were broken in this auction. Everything that was done is clearly stated in the Sitepoint Marketplace auction rules that it is allowed. Furthermore, I even told the winner (cyberbird) in a message earlier today that I would take $25 off the winning price just to be nice about this whole thing since they apparently has some issues with it, which I absolutely did not have to do. Haven't heard back from them yet though. And in response to the comment about feedback... Even after all of this I will give positive feedback to the winner (cyberbird) as long as I am paid for the site by tomorrow (Wednesday) night. That would be 3 days after the auction end. I hope that positive feedback will also be left for me as I have communicated with you on this matter and have done nothing wrong.

Dec 22, 2008, 14:55	#11
Chris Corbyn Resident Code Monkey Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 800	Hi Guys, I'd just like to chime in here and clarify what our rules are. When a bid is placed, the bidder is agreeing that they are willing to buy at the price bid. A seller has to list an end time between 1 and 30 days when they create an auction. They also have to specify a minimum bid and a reserve. These CAN be changed during the course of an auction, provided the following criteria are met: 1) The reserve price MUST always be higher than the minimum bid 2) The reserve price MUST always be higher than the current highest bid 3) The end time cannot be more than 30 days, since this is the maximum permitted time for an auction to run* * Note that in the closing 4 hours of an auction, bids placed will cause the auction to be extended so that no less than 4 hours remain after the last bid placed. This is to prevent the scenario bidders face on eBay where bid sniping occurs at the close of an auction. We want the other bidders involved to have at least some chance to respond. Feedback cannot be removed so think carefully before leaving feedback. You do not have to leave feedback and if you think this is mostly down to a misunderstanding it's probably in both of your interests to move on without leaving feedback. @Trent Brownrigg, I have sent you a private message regarding your auction and what you can do from here.

Dec 22, 2008, 15:00	#12
Chris Corbyn Resident Code Monkey Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 800	I'd also like to add, regarding feedback, you can leave a neutral which does not affect your feedback score. Probably a wise thing to do in the case of a misunderstanding.

Dec 22, 2008, 16:37	#15
Trent Brownrigg SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 42	Thanks for the reply Chris. I think cyberbird and I have this worked out and have put it behind us. I did leave positive feedback for him. There was a misunderstanding and those do happen sometimes, so I have no hard feelings. He has paid me for the site, I have transferred the domain and site files to him, and we are in the process of getting it set up right now. I think this issue is now closed. Thanks again, Trent

Dec 22, 2008, 17:20	#18
Chris Corbyn Resident Code Monkey Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 800	Ok guys, I have contacted you both by private message to try and bring some closure to this. If you could contact Nonie at support, or respond to my private messages if have any further queries that would be greatly appreciated. We will respond to you both. We appreciate that this has not been a fun experience for either of you and we apologize for the problems you've had.

Dec 23, 2008, 03:04	#19
Chris Corbyn Resident Code Monkey Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 800	Following a discussion with both parties involved here I'm happy to say that this issue has been resolved amicably. I spent this morning (Australian Eastern Standard Time) looking through the logic in our code regarding this rule and did find a hole that would have allowed a seller to lower the reserve as low as the minimum bid, with no restriction regarding the current highest bid. A seller could easily do this without knowing about the rules. We made a release very soon after which closed this loophole so this will not happen again. Both parties have been aware of this.