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C. Ankerstjerne · Sep 11, 2006, 07:44

I don't want to get into this discussion, since I generally don't like Flash (mainly for the reason that I'm not able to hardcode using free tools - at least none which I've found).

I read about a new book store here in Denmark today, though. 100 % Flash. Sounded scary, and the review wasn't very flattering (multiple IE crashes), so I checked it out. Have a look yourself: http://www.elounge.com/. You can't even use the tabulator to browse the links, and there is no SEO at all. An excellent case study of how not to do.

HarryR · Sep 11, 2006, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by C. Ankerstjerne

I read about a new book store here in Denmark today, though. 100 % Flash. Sounded scary, and the review wasn't very flattering (multiple IE crashes), so I checked it out. Have a look yourself: http://www.elounge.com/. You can't even use the tabulator to browse the links, and there is no SEO at all. An excellent case study of how not to do.

That website simply doesn't work, like you said a perfect example of how _not_ to use Flash

Czaries · Sep 11, 2006, 08:44

I believe flash still has some useful applications for the web - try telling YouTube or Google Video that flash is out of style! It's saving them TERABYTES of bandwidth every day. While I would strongly agree that Flash should never be used for a full website, it has many useful applications in unique circumstances or purposes. Flash works great for little video clips, complex and/or long animations, virtual tours, etc. I think as long as there is a web, Flash will be around for those special applications.

RonnieFizz · Sep 11, 2006, 08:49

I am one of those that loves flash and all and i go crazy for A.S ...(p.s im no pro but im trying to learn)
and my one concern is that for the way that it is evoluating and now they alreayd switch from one version in like so quick....notice how they had flash back then with as1...then pipo had to learn as2......Now its gonna be all about as3 pretty soon.....I mean thats like using programms like Cad or something that you will specialize your self into....

so basically my point is. Css been here foreer and so have HTML..and all that xHtml and hum Css z-index and all that good stuff....I mean im getting mixed feelings about he use for flash.... i dont know whats going to come out of v9 but hum i wanna hear pipo opinion!

Ronnie,
Cheers!

ticksoft · Sep 11, 2006, 10:38

I don't really like Flash for websites, breaks usability ideas and is often too frustrating for the user. It is however ideal for advertising and video playback since it's installed by a very large majority of internet users and is consistent between platforms and browsers.

EOBeav · Sep 11, 2006, 12:07

I'll throw in my .02 worth here. Use xhtml for content, css for layout, and flash for enhancing your page. If somebody doesn't or can't have flash enabled on their computer, you want the flash to degrade nicely and still have an attractive site where the content is easy to get to. All-flash sites are just no good, but flash elements can greatly improve a well-made site.

Mark R · Sep 11, 2006, 12:20

Wow, I was going to post exactly what the Beaver said. Good work. (and stay away from that Eddie Haskell he's nothing but trouble)

mhulse · Sep 11, 2006, 12:39

What about Flex 2??? Seems like adobe is starting to head the direction of accessible flash... I have not done much research on Flex 2 (was on Flex listserv on yahoo for a couple weeks, a lot of action) but it looks very promising.

At my part-time job, we had a top guy for Indesign over at Adobe come down to chat about the future of the publishing industry... At one point I *****ed about how Flash has potential, but I prefer XHTML - flash sucks with search engines, browser back button... yadda yadda yadda... he mentioned Flex, XML, other things. Sounds like Flash is going to soon be way more accessible in near future. I think Adobe has a lot up their sleeve and they are listening to us developers. Sounds like they are thinking in terms of marketing too... being able to get more user information and such via Flash-based adverts with better communication between Flash player and server...

Sorry, have to type quick, on my way out door.

I just hope they figure out a way to make the object/embed xhtml compliant!

brandaggio · Sep 11, 2006, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhulse

What about Flex 2??? Seems like adobe is starting to head the direction of accessible flash... I have not done much research on Flex 2 (was on Flex listserv on yahoo for a couple weeks, a lot of action) and it looks very promising.

At my part-time job, we had a top guy for Indesign over at Adobe come down to chat about the future of the publishing industry... At one point I *****ed about how Flash has potential, but I prefer XHTML - flash sucks with search engines, browser back button... yadda yadda yadda... he mentioned Flex, XML, other things. Sounds like Flash is going to soon be way more accessible in near future. I think Adobe has a lot up their sleeve and they are listening to us developers. Sounds like they are thinking in terms of marketing too... being able to get more user information and such via Flash-based adverts with better communication between Flash player and server...

Sorry, have to type quick, on my way out door.

I just hope they figure out a way to make the object/embed xhtml compliant!

The Flash bashers have likely never used Flex/Flex 2 or OpenLazlo. Always easy to talk bad about that which you don't fully understand.

I am keen on accessibility and usability but these are fields that are just starting to be understood as it pertains to the web and especially Flash - it will take years of hard word to address accessibility all acccessibility concerns, including those unrelated to Flash.

People get hung up on the word "Flash" - what it really is is vector rendering, ECMAscript and XML, all technologies we whould be embracing and noting Macrodobe's obvious interest in making Flash better, richer and more developer friendly.

WYSIWYG is the closest to to true for Flash, and that my friends is incredibly compelling. Cross browser issues be damned!

kohoutek · Sep 11, 2006, 14:26

I like Flash. Flash isn't bad. If anything, it's often applied badly or in a inadequate context.

Flash is wonderful for visual interactive means. And of course there are good and solid methods to offer alternative content and implement these cleanly into well formed markup.

mhulse · Sep 11, 2006, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wozbk

The Flash bashers have likely never used Flex/Flex 2 or OpenLazlo. Always easy to talk bad about that which you don't fully understand.

I am keen on accessibility and usability but these are fields that are just starting to be understood as it pertains to the web and especially Flash - it will take years of hard word to address accessibility all acccessibility concerns, including those unrelated to Flash.

Very well put.

Flex 2 looks like an interesting step in the right direction. The few syntax examples/tuts I have seen are pretty cool.

davro · Sep 13, 2006, 03:56

Flash has just found its feet, its far from finished.
example http://video.google.co.uk/

CrucialWebHost · Sep 15, 2006, 03:01

I used to be pretty deep into Flash, but as the OP said, have strayed more into XHTML/CSS for doing websites. I think it's the best way to go. Sites done entirely in Flash, in my opinion, are worthless. Flash should be used sparingly, and only when necessary. Why do something in Flash when you can do it with XHTML/CSS is my line of though on this issue.

Don't get me wrong, Flash (and check out Flex) has its place, but for corporate websites, and most websites for that matter, simplicity is, and always will be, king.

RonnieFizz · Sep 11, 2006, 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhulse

L - flash sucks with search engines, browser back button... yadda yadda yadda...

i think that people do take certain things wrong...complaining about certain things in flash..is just not right...like for instance you have programms like swish max that does things for you...flash is basically like "off scratch program" meaning that whatever that yo accomplish is up to your level..

I only say that because i know for fact that a lot of things( even things that i do not know} are possible inside of flash... so the whole idea is you do what you need.. but notice how Novices tend not to have that much problem with certain things.. I mean its a matter of Patience and practice.and will ..so basically i think that flash within itself has less problem than what is being said about it.

mhulse · Sep 12, 2006, 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonnieFizz

i think that people do take certain things wrong...complaining about certain things in flash..is just not right...like for instance you have programms like swish max that does things for you...flash is basically like "off scratch program" meaning that whatever that yo accomplish is up to your level..

I only say that because i know for fact that a lot of things( even things that i do not know} are possible inside of flash... so the whole idea is you do what you need.. but notice how Novices tend not to have that much problem with certain things.. I mean its a matter of Patience and practice.and will ..so basically i think that flash within itself has less problem than what is being said about it.

I understand what you are saying... and I was a bit rushed when typing the quote you reference.

I am not anti-Flash, by no means. I like anything that gets the job done. I am a Multimedia enthusiast...

If I remember correctly, the Adobe dude asked me a question about Flash, and I responded with pros and cons.

Last time I used Flash, the browser back button would take you out of a full-on Flash site (I am sure there are workarounds, but I do not think I have seen an all-Flash site handle browser controls well without breaking accessibility or something.)

I guess it is getting easier to make Flash based sites that Google/search engines like... but not too long ago that was a problem.

On top of that, the dam embed/object tag breaks validation... Well, now you can use SWFObject (very nice!) but still kinda a hack just to get things to be "right."

I think one can be a proponent of Flash, but still complain about areas that are broken.

Should one have to be an uber-guru just to get the Object to validate? Is it too much to ask of Macromedia/Adobe to give us a product that communicates easily with the rest of the world?

Then again, maybe my ignorance is shining through here... if so, sorry. :: blushes ::

Well, back to Flex2 and Adobe... Adobe is going to take Flash to a whole new level. Things are changing... IMHO, 2007 is going to be a pivotal year for Flash, and multimedia technologies in general.

bonefry · Sep 11, 2006, 15:10

Eh, Adobe will deliver more up-to-date Flash players in the future, because of the long and promised WPF/E.

I they don't deliver the functionality that Macromedia should've had years ago, like better integration with the operating system (at least a copy/paste of text that does work), better performance, better support for non-Windows platforms ... Microsoft's WPF will crush the Flash market, simply because they have the platform advantage.

And when it will come to choice between Flash and WPF, Microsoft's stench will not make a difference, because it really will not matter what Adobe does ... Flash is also proprietary, and has always been, thus the pain of induring another Microsoft technology will not be relevant.

mhulse · Sep 11, 2006, 15:24

@bonefry, Sorry for my ignorance... but what is WPF? Sounds interesting. Not sure what you are referencing though.

Thanks
M

bonefry · Sep 11, 2006, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhulse

@bonefry, Sorry for my ignorance... but what is WPF? Sounds interesting. Not sure what you are referencing though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows...ion_Foundation

mhulse · Sep 11, 2006, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonefry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows...ion_Foundation

Ah, thanks! I should have checked there myself....

<soapbox>

Sounds interesting... but I am not sure if I would invest much time and/or money in a MS-based web anything... Too much time wasted and headaches caused by crappy apps like IE and Word. I am not sure if they can ever win me back.

I mean, I own a PC (32bit dual core)... I run XP... I would probably hate PEECEEs/XP if it was not for my computer science background. I feel sorry for the folks that are the casual PC user (heck, for them I say get a Mac.)

</soapbox>

Lol, ok, I will crawl back into my hole.

Cheers,
Micky

mhulse · Sep 11, 2006, 15:43

BTW, kinda on-topic.... there is an interesting coversation/thread evolving over on TheList:

The Week Of Monday 11 September 2006 Archives by thread: [thelist] Ajax - Which one to learn on?

jizzypop · Sep 11, 2006, 15:54

flash has its place on the internet and its not going anywhere.

Its found its niche in animated interactive sites. HTML is still the king of everyday usable sites.

janetsmith · Sep 11, 2006, 18:10

hmmm... I only use flash for my "How-to do this step by step" page.

I've been a flash action script user since Version 4.0. Actually even though Flash has been upgraded to 8, and the complexity in Action script has been increased, what I use is only basic function.

So everytime they change their action script, I have to learn sometime new to do the same thing like old days.

Regarding the usability of flash website, unless you can mimic all the functionality of the normal webpage, e.g. right-click to bring up a context menu, and open new page/tab, or click the back button, else the visitor has to learn how to use ur website. If you have to mimic the behaviour of the normal page, you'd better use the html page to save ur time.

jst my 2 cent.

eldacar · Sep 12, 2006, 05:16

Will this Flex2 thing support x64 of any platform?

It's not just Linux that has problems with Flash, 64 bit versions of Windows are also not supported.

brandaggio · Sep 12, 2006, 07:35

I don't mean to sway the conversation away from Flex, which is getting better all the time, but some Fortune 500 companies use OpenLazlo, which is very unique because it does not depend on Flash to run. Your app could be rendered as an AJAX app, using the technologies we all know and love, or in the Flash player - your choice - not Adobe's.

If any of you bother to read about it you will be extremely impressed:
http://www.openlaszlo.org/advancedajax

OpenLazlo has been the most ambitious project of its kind and forced Adobe to step up the RIA abilities of Flex. It is more common to find employers looking for Lazlo developers in Manhattan then for Flex.

FizixRichard · Sep 12, 2006, 07:56

I like Flash, it has some really good uses, same as most platforms out there.

I don't think it's going away either, I think that it's going to become more prominent, maybe not in it's current form but maybe through other applications (Flex). The industry is still very young and it's still evolving.

I know a lot of people say Flash is on it's way out and it's a bad thing, they are just the bashers and should be ignored. The only arguments they can make are based on poor use not Flash itself.

You can make a full flash site fully SEO if you think about your approach, you can make it usable etc.

Instances of people pointing out Flashes flaws are 90% of the time not picking out Flashes flaws but the developers flaws and those flaws are nothing unique to Flash, just look at some of the HTML, XHTML and CSS sites out there and they have exactly the same problems.

Developer and platform are very different things.

Sep 11, 2006, 12:39	#8
mhulse .•º draziW tnioPetiS º•. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: "Then I figure the most good good guy will win." Posts: 1,625	What about Flex 2??? Seems like adobe is starting to head the direction of accessible flash... I have not done much research on Flex 2 (was on Flex listserv on yahoo for a couple weeks, a lot of action) but it looks very promising. At my part-time job, we had a top guy for Indesign over at Adobe come down to chat about the future of the publishing industry... At one point I ****ed about how Flash has potential, but I prefer XHTML - flash sucks with search engines, browser back button... yadda yadda yadda... he mentioned Flex, XML, other things. Sounds like Flash is going to soon be way more accessible in near future. I think Adobe has a lot up their sleeve and they are listening to us developers. Sounds like they are thinking in terms of marketing too... being able to get more user information and such via Flash-based adverts with better communication between Flash player and server... Sorry, have to type quick, on my way out door. I just hope they figure out a way to make the object/embed xhtml compliant! Last edited by mhulse; Sep 11, 2006 at 14:11.*

Sep 13, 2006, 03:56	#12
davro SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: London Posts: 66	Has Flash had it's day? Flash has just found its feet, its far from finished. example http://video.google.co.uk/

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Sep 11, 2006, 07:44	#1
C. Ankerstjerne SitePoint Mentor Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The Kingdom of Denmark Posts: 2,232	I don't want to get into this discussion, since I generally don't like Flash (mainly for the reason that I'm not able to hardcode using free tools - at least none which I've found). I read about a new book store here in Denmark today, though. 100 % Flash. Sounded scary, and the review wasn't very flattering (multiple IE crashes), so I checked it out. Have a look yourself: http://www.elounge.com/. You can't even use the tabulator to browse the links, and there is no SEO at all. An excellent case study of how not to do.

Sep 11, 2006, 08:44	#3
Czaries if(ie6) { upgrade(firefox3); } Join Date: May 2004 Location: Central USA Posts: 944	I believe flash still has some useful applications for the web - try telling YouTube or Google Video that flash is out of style! It's saving them TERABYTES of bandwidth every day. While I would strongly agree that Flash should never be used for a full website, it has many useful applications in unique circumstances or purposes. Flash works great for little video clips, complex and/or long animations, virtual tours, etc. I think as long as there is a web, Flash will be around for those special applications.

Sep 11, 2006, 08:49	#4
RonnieFizz SitePoint Addict Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 344	I am one of those that loves flash and all and i go crazy for A.S ...(p.s im no pro but im trying to learn) and my one concern is that for the way that it is evoluating and now they alreayd switch from one version in like so quick....notice how they had flash back then with as1...then pipo had to learn as2......Now its gonna be all about as3 pretty soon.....I mean thats like using programms like Cad or something that you will specialize your self into.... so basically my point is. Css been here foreer and so have HTML..and all that xHtml and hum Css z-index and all that good stuff....I mean im getting mixed feelings about he use for flash.... i dont know whats going to come out of v9 but hum i wanna hear pipo opinion! Ronnie, Cheers!

Sep 11, 2006, 10:38	#5
ticksoft SitePoint Guru Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 616	I don't really like Flash for websites, breaks usability ideas and is often too frustrating for the user. It is however ideal for advertising and video playback since it's installed by a very large majority of internet users and is consistent between platforms and browsers.

Sep 11, 2006, 12:07	#6
EOBeav SitePoint Zealot Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 196	I'll throw in my .02 worth here. Use xhtml for content, css for layout, and flash for enhancing your page. If somebody doesn't or can't have flash enabled on their computer, you want the flash to degrade nicely and still have an attractive site where the content is easy to get to. All-flash sites are just no good, but flash elements can greatly improve a well-made site.

Sep 11, 2006, 12:20	#7
Mark R SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 44	Wow, I was going to post exactly what the Beaver said. Good work. (and stay away from that Eddie Haskell he's nothing but trouble)

Sep 11, 2006, 14:26	#10
kohoutek Sunshine. Always. Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 2,596	I like Flash. Flash isn't bad. If anything, it's often applied badly or in a inadequate context. Flash is wonderful for visual interactive means. And of course there are good and solid methods to offer alternative content and implement these cleanly into well formed markup.

Sep 15, 2006, 03:01	#13
CrucialWebHost SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 54	I used to be pretty deep into Flash, but as the OP said, have strayed more into XHTML/CSS for doing websites. I think it's the best way to go. Sites done entirely in Flash, in my opinion, are worthless. Flash should be used sparingly, and only when necessary. Why do something in Flash when you can do it with XHTML/CSS is my line of though on this issue. Don't get me wrong, Flash (and check out Flex) has its place, but for corporate websites, and most websites for that matter, simplicity is, and always will be, king.

Sep 11, 2006, 15:10	#16
bonefry throw me a bone ... now Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Romania Posts: 850	Eh, Adobe will deliver more up-to-date Flash players in the future, because of the long and promised WPF/E. I they don't deliver the functionality that Macromedia should've had years ago, like better integration with the operating system (at least a copy/paste of text that does work), better performance, better support for non-Windows platforms ... Microsoft's WPF will crush the Flash market, simply because they have the platform advantage. And when it will come to choice between Flash and WPF, Microsoft's stench will not make a difference, because it really will not matter what Adobe does ... Flash is also proprietary, and has always been, thus the pain of induring another Microsoft technology will not be relevant.

Sep 11, 2006, 15:24	#17
mhulse .•º draziW tnioPetiS º•. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: "Then I figure the most good good guy will win." Posts: 1,625	@bonefry, Sorry for my ignorance... but what is WPF? Sounds interesting. Not sure what you are referencing though. Thanks M

Sep 11, 2006, 15:43	#20
mhulse .•º draziW tnioPetiS º•. Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: "Then I figure the most good good guy will win." Posts: 1,625	BTW, kinda on-topic.... there is an interesting coversation/thread evolving over on TheList: The Week Of Monday 11 September 2006 Archives by thread: [thelist] Ajax - Which one to learn on?

Sep 11, 2006, 15:54	#21
jizzypop SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Alexandria, LA Posts: 58	flash has its place on the internet and its not going anywhere. Its found its niche in animated interactive sites. HTML is still the king of everyday usable sites.

Sep 11, 2006, 18:10	#22
janetsmith SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 192	hmmm... I only use flash for my "How-to do this step by step" page. I've been a flash action script user since Version 4.0. Actually even though Flash has been upgraded to 8, and the complexity in Action script has been increased, what I use is only basic function. So everytime they change their action script, I have to learn sometime new to do the same thing like old days. Regarding the usability of flash website, unless you can mimic all the functionality of the normal webpage, e.g. right-click to bring up a context menu, and open new page/tab, or click the back button, else the visitor has to learn how to use ur website. If you have to mimic the behaviour of the normal page, you'd better use the html page to save ur time. jst my 2 cent.

Sep 12, 2006, 05:16	#23
eldacar SitePoint Addict Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 276	Will this Flex2 thing support x64 of any platform? It's not just Linux that has problems with Flash, 64 bit versions of Windows are also not supported.

Sep 12, 2006, 07:35	#24
brandaggio Brevity is greatly overrated Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,427	I don't mean to sway the conversation away from Flex, which is getting better all the time, but some Fortune 500 companies use OpenLazlo, which is very unique because it does not depend on Flash to run. Your app could be rendered as an AJAX app, using the technologies we all know and love, or in the Flash player - your choice - not Adobe's. If any of you bother to read about it you will be extremely impressed: http://www.openlaszlo.org/advancedajax OpenLazlo has been the most ambitious project of its kind and forced Adobe to step up the RIA abilities of Flex. It is more common to find employers looking for Lazlo developers in Manhattan then for Flex.

Sep 12, 2006, 07:56	#25
FizixRichard SitePoint Addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: UK Posts: 309	I like Flash, it has some really good uses, same as most platforms out there. I don't think it's going away either, I think that it's going to become more prominent, maybe not in it's current form but maybe through other applications (Flex). The industry is still very young and it's still evolving. I know a lot of people say Flash is on it's way out and it's a bad thing, they are just the bashers and should be ignored. The only arguments they can make are based on poor use not Flash itself. You can make a full flash site fully SEO if you think about your approach, you can make it usable etc. Instances of people pointing out Flashes flaws are 90% of the time not picking out Flashes flaws but the developers flaws and those flaws are nothing unique to Flash, just look at some of the HTML, XHTML and CSS sites out there and they have exactly the same problems. Developer and platform are very different things.