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ArticleBot · Feb 4, 2005, 02:47

This is an article discussion thread for discussing the SitePoint article, "Debate - .NET V. PHP: Top 6 Reasons to Use .NET"

Feb 4, 2005, 02:47

Looks like you don't know even what is PHP! All things that you mentioned about benefits of .NET are PHP benefits! I realt recommend you to learn more about PHP, then judge about them!

Tryst · Feb 4, 2005, 03:17

But this article is over 2 years old, surely the debate has come and gone...

Tryst

Chuckie · Feb 4, 2005, 10:42

?? Are you sure? In that time PHP5 has come to market.

Tryst · Feb 7, 2005, 02:36

Yes, but this article doesn't cover PHP5, so therefore its not upto date and can be misleading.

Tryst

CodeLes · Feb 7, 2005, 08:25

I have come to prefer dotnet, but that doesn't mean I shun PHP, I still use it for basic things. I guess I'm too lazy to get into advanced PHP...

Later

WebDevGuy · Feb 7, 2005, 09:06

I have recently gone through this debate internally. I used the PEAR package to add pre-built PHP functionality. I like PHP very much.

Having said that, I am moving toward .Net because of the functionality that comes with the framework.

I think about all the work I had to do to get the PEAR classes working and functioning properly, the only REAL help for many packages include forums. Not a manual of any kind or the very few tutorials that exist, but forums like this one. It was like pulling teeth sometimes to get help. I need a RAD system where much work has already been done. Time to production is the key.

The biggest difference is the documentation (see above) - here I am mainly talking about PEAR classes. Go to the bookstore and try to find anything on PEAR...One book is all I found and that only covered 6 or so clsses. Then move down the row to .Net - there are 70 - 100 books.

The lack of documentation and tutorials available almost forced me to move to .Net.

melancholic · Feb 15, 2005, 05:00

nice article...

I myself am not going for or against either technologies...

I'm looking to expand the options I can give clients without my eyes widening whenever .net is mentioned.

Feb 28, 2005, 17:54

I just thing the main problem with PHP is lack of standardization, which is where ASP.NET kills. Once PHP programmers discover the beauty of ASP.NET web forms and datagrids it'll be hard for them to ever go back to PHP.

Mar 2, 2005, 12:00

<b>Environment composed of UltraEdit ($35), Bullet Proof FTP ($30) and mySQLfront ($0). ???</b> I read everything and it seemed pretty reliable until I read this and I figured out you are just trying to push .net. I have been developing in php for 2 years and didn’t pay a penny for any of my tools so please.....

CodeLes · Mar 2, 2005, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gershon

<b>Environment composed of UltraEdit ($35), Bullet Proof FTP ($30) and mySQLfront ($0). ???</b> I read everything and it seemed pretty reliable until I read this and I figured out you are just trying to push .net. I have been developing in php for 2 years and didn’t pay a penny for any of my tools so please.....

There shall forever be hang ups with everyone involved, I actually haven't spent any money to develope in ASP.NET... and I enjoy it more than not paying anything to program in PHP...

just me though.

mx2k · Mar 15, 2005, 10:10

blah this article is old, but a point which neither side has mentioned much. valid html/xhtml markup.

currently asp.net 1.1 does not produce valid xhtml markup. and unless you do some hacking, it won't produce valid markup till supposedly asp.net 2 is being used. even then, you would have wait again a while after for another version of asp.net to come out before it would probably support xhtml2.0. however with php you could write valid markup today in just about any version of php. in a free text editor.

not to mention visual studio 2003 butchers any decent xhtml markup even inside the IDE. and tries to force you to <asp:buttons> and so on.

not to mention the paging with datagrids isn't all that flexible.

igor.kudela · Mar 15, 2005, 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by mx2k

blah this article is old, but a point which neither side has mentioned much. valid html/xhtml markup.

currently asp.net 1.1 does not produce valid xhtml markup. and unless you do some hacking, it won't produce valid markup till supposedly asp.net 2 is being used. even then, you would have wait again a while after for another version of asp.net to come out before it would probably support xhtml2.0. however with php you could write valid markup today in just about any version of php. in a free text editor.

not to mention visual studio 2003 butchers any decent xhtml markup even inside the IDE. and tries to force you to <asp:buttons> and so on.

not to mention the paging with datagrids isn't all that flexible.

yes yes and php is the best bla bla bla , i always say code in what ever you like as long as it works , but PHLEASE dont says things like you can't to that in asp.net and in php you can , or that doesnt even work in asp.net
1. xhtml , no problem , u just need to know how to code well
2. paging works just right READ the docs
3. well with a few clicks in my IDE ( VS.NET ) and voala its not forcing me to do anything
so just stick to PHP i know its the best ( 4 u) and its your choice but dont crap all over asp.net just cause u dont know how to use it
THX

cringer · Mar 15, 2005, 12:05

I've done enough developing in both PHP and .NET to know that I like .NET much better, and using VS.NET as an IDE with the .NET framework at my disposal gives me the tools to be a much more efficient programmer.

VS doesn't "do" anything you don't tell it to do.

Datagrids are incredibly convenient and powerful tools if you know how to use them.

What i really like best though is what's coming right around the corner:

http://beta.asp.net/quickstart/aspnet/

Quote:

Performing Data Access
Nearly every dynamic web application performs some kind of data access, and fortunately ASP.NET 2.0 makes this incredibly easy to do. Unlike ASP.NET 1.0, which required developers to write custom code in order retrieve and bind data to server controls, ASP.NET 2.0 enables a declarative solution for data binding which requires no code at all for the most common data scenarios, such as:

Sorting, Paging and Caching Data
Updating, Inserting and Deleting Data
Filtering or Master-Details Using Parameters

mx2k · Mar 15, 2005, 13:12

yeah try to validate the markup in a validator. .net will not validate as it puts things like <script> tags without defining what kind of script it is placing, i.e javascript. and it also adds html 4.0 attributes that are no longer valid in xhtml markup, which will be fixed in asp.net 2.0, but only as far as xhtml 1.1 is concerned, not to mention inserting things like rules in tables.

and i never said that it couldn't be done. it just requires extra hacking and coding. and the paging tends to be ugly by default.

so the point being it wasn't an aspect that was deemed important when it was developed and even then

ms helped to develop w3 standards ... so the framework should have reflected that better.

unless you want to add extra IF / ELSE statements for things like radio groups
then the .net structure tends to push/force for you use their template type system and what not. I usually use plain xhtml with a runat="server" and then add extra code in the code behind to adjust to it, it drives other people mad that i do so because it adds extra work.

cringer · Mar 15, 2005, 14:53

I just ran three .NET pages, none of them failed validation because of something .NET specific.

(they failed due to my own negligence, but could be fixed if I cared enough to take the time.)

BTW - I'm not saying .NET will never produce invalid markup... but you seem to imply that it always does by default and that's not really the case.

big_al · Mar 15, 2005, 15:12

I love seeing these pro PHP'ers always go, but PHP is free, you can use a text editor, MySql is free blah blah blah.

WebMatrix (ASP.NET development Environmnet).... FREE
SharpDevelop(Win Forms Development Environment).... FREE! (And Open Source!)
MSDE.... FREE! (Not to mention all the other database engines that .NET can connect to... including MySql!)

Now my favorite argument... When was the last time you wrote a module in PHP and used it in a desktop app? ... never I hear you say

I as many others, use Visual Studio to develop my .NET applications, and I have yet to find a PHP development platform that supports the collaborative modules and source control that VS offers. Though looking forward to the new team development modules in VS 2005(6?)

Just my two cents.

freddydoesphp · Mar 15, 2005, 15:25

That is the argument of choice amongst php developers, along with native database support, ease of learning. Hell I myself started with php and used to be one of those zealots, fortunately for me I made the .NET jump in 2002 and haven't even wanted to go back.

igor.kudela · Mar 15, 2005, 15:35

AMEN to that
i am not saying php is crap but .NET is extremly good

big_al · Mar 15, 2005, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by igor.kudela

AMEN to that
i am not saying php is crap but .NET is extremly good

Testify ** Claps hands **

CodeLes · Mar 15, 2005, 16:46

I totally agree. I started my career in PHP (coming out of a C++ background in College) and it was great, but then .NET caught my eye and I have to admit I haven't turned back. I do have to say though that a lot of the greatness of the main IDE for .NET (Visual Studio.NET) is lost to me, since I do most of my programming in NotePad (archaic I know) and use the Dreamweaver text editor for everything else.

My word to PHP is this:
PHP is good because it is a well structured language. It isn't sloppy like VB (I use C#) and it doesn't lead you into the thought that you are a programmer, because it is a C-like language. You can come out of PHP and do C# with a little help from a good reference book. but then, that is my view of PHP verses .NET with C#, I will never advocate for VB (any version) because I believe it is like an Access DB verses an SQL Server 2000 DB/Oracle DB...

Just my thoughts.

cringer · Mar 15, 2005, 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by CodeLes

PHP is good because it is a well structured language. It isn't sloppy like VB (I use C#)

PHP is better structured "language" than VB.NET? I'm lost on that one. The differences between VB.NET and C# are mainly syntax, and cater to whatever background one came from. (VB or C style languages). (that's an over-simplification I know)

At any rate, the combo of VS.NET, SQL Server, and the .NET framework IMHO is worlds away from PHP.

PHP I use for my hobby stuff and a few clients I have on the side.

.NET I use for my real job that pays me a nice salary.

(very few job offers looking for PHP programmers, at least where I live) - but that doesn't mean I have no use for it.

Archbob · Mar 17, 2005, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_al

I love seeing these pro PHP'ers always go, but PHP is free, you can use a text editor, MySql is free blah blah blah.

WebMatrix (ASP.NET development Environmnet).... FREE
SharpDevelop(Win Forms Development Environment).... FREE! (And Open Source!)
MSDE.... FREE! (Not to mention all the other database engines that .NET can connect to... including MySql!)

Now my favorite argument... When was the last time you wrote a module in PHP and used it in a desktop app? ... never I hear you say

I as many others, use Visual Studio to develop my .NET applications, and I have yet to find a PHP development platform that supports the collaborative modules and source control that VS offers. Though looking forward to the new team development modules in VS 2005(6?)

Just my two cents.

1. PHP isn't made for anything but usage on the web generally, So your desktop argument is moot. I'll use PERL if I want to do that.

2. In both languages, I prefer editpad lite(or notepad) over Visual Studio, Ultra edit, etc. Even when I regulary coded C++ back in the day, I much perferred freeware versions to visual studio 6. The modules aren't that important to me when I write PHP and I just write source code in notepad, it works really well.

I ma now just learning .NET and I have friends that program in both PHP in .NET for years(close to when .NET first came out) and many still prefer PHP because the forced OO in every damn thing slows development down significantly on many projects.

Benjymouse · Mar 17, 2005, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archbob

1. PHP isn't made for anything but usage on the web generally, So your desktop argument is moot. [....]

Not to answer for big_al, but I think you may be missing his point here.

As web applications grow to become more sophisticated in the enterprise, you start to realize that the web is just another way of "framing" much of the same modules that you may use for the internal, desktop or server apps.

Samples of this: Image manipulation, chart drawing, legacy system connectivity, message queueing.

Not to mention object/domain model abstractions, directory services integration.

Enterprises may have very large investments in modules that support this. Generally they dislike having to re-invent things like that just to accomodate a special language for the web.

I think the point is that a language will have a hard time justifying itself if it's "just for the web". As demands grow the web apps will grow more advanced. Developers and managers alike will ask: "Why, we just did this on the web. Why can't we just stick it in our desktop app?".

I realize that PHP does not target this segment. But I fear that if PHP does address this point it will end up where it started: Private Home Pages.

However, as we move to Services Oriented Architectures PHP may mitigate this if it succeeds in implementing good web-service support. Module re-use will become less important as long as you can leverage the same services.

Archbob · Mar 17, 2005, 19:39

Actually if you have GD library(or imagemagik) installed and have apache/PHP install. You can just open up the file on your desktop. But its not designed for such a purpose.

The amount of PHP jobs is increasing as well.

ASP.NET hasn't really made a dent in PHP's territory and PHP's popularity is growing at a fast pace. As long as ASP.NET can only run on windows hosting, I doubt it will really dent PHP.

Feb 4, 2005, 02:47	#1
ArticleBot SitePoint Articles Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 0	Article Discussion This is an article discussion thread for discussing the SitePoint article, "Debate - .NET V. PHP: Top 6 Reasons to Use .NET"

Feb 7, 2005, 09:06	#7
WebDevGuy SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,406	I have recently gone through this debate internally. I used the PEAR package to add pre-built PHP functionality. I like PHP very much. Having said that, I am moving toward .Net because of the functionality that comes with the framework. I think about all the work I had to do to get the PEAR classes working and functioning properly, the only REAL help for many packages include forums. Not a manual of any kind or the very few tutorials that exist, but forums like this one. It was like pulling teeth sometimes to get help. I need a RAD system where much work has already been done. Time to production is the key. The biggest difference is the documentation (see above) - here I am mainly talking about PEAR classes. Go to the bookstore and try to find anything on PEAR...One book is all I found and that only covered 6 or so clsses. Then move down the row to .Net - there are 70 - 100 books. The lack of documentation and tutorials available almost forced me to move to .Net. Last edited by WebDevGuy; Feb 7, 2005 at 12:53.

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Feb 4, 2005, 02:47	#2
Anonymous SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	Looks like you don't know even what is PHP! All things that you mentioned about benefits of .NET are PHP benefits! I realt recommend you to learn more about PHP, then judge about them!

Feb 4, 2005, 03:17	#3
Tryst Knowledge is key 2 progression Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Wales Posts: 1,175	But this article is over 2 years old, surely the debate has come and gone... Tryst

Feb 4, 2005, 10:42	#4
Chuckie SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Chico, Ca Posts: 1,128	?? Are you sure? In that time PHP5 has come to market.

Feb 7, 2005, 02:36	#5
Tryst Knowledge is key 2 progression Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Wales Posts: 1,175	Yes, but this article doesn't cover PHP5, so therefore its not upto date and can be misleading. Tryst

Feb 7, 2005, 08:25	#6
CodeLes SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 157	I have come to prefer dotnet, but that doesn't mean I shun PHP, I still use it for basic things. I guess I'm too lazy to get into advanced PHP... Later

Feb 15, 2005, 05:00	#8
melancholic Non-Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 455	nice article... I myself am not going for or against either technologies... I'm looking to expand the options I can give clients without my eyes widening whenever .net is mentioned.

Feb 28, 2005, 17:54	#9
Timb SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	I just thing the main problem with PHP is lack of standardization, which is where ASP.NET kills. Once PHP programmers discover the beauty of ASP.NET web forms and datagrids it'll be hard for them to ever go back to PHP.

Mar 2, 2005, 12:00	#10
Gershon SitePoint Community Guest Posts: n/a	<b>Environment composed of UltraEdit ($35), Bullet Proof FTP ($30) and mySQLfront ($0). ???</b> I read everything and it seemed pretty reliable until I read this and I figured out you are just trying to push .net. I have been developing in php for 2 years and didn’t pay a penny for any of my tools so please.....

Mar 15, 2005, 10:10	#12
mx2k SitePoint Addict Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 267	blah this article is old, but a point which neither side has mentioned much. valid html/xhtml markup. currently asp.net 1.1 does not produce valid xhtml markup. and unless you do some hacking, it won't produce valid markup till supposedly asp.net 2 is being used. even then, you would have wait again a while after for another version of asp.net to come out before it would probably support xhtml2.0. however with php you could write valid markup today in just about any version of php. in a free text editor. not to mention visual studio 2003 butchers any decent xhtml markup even inside the IDE. and tries to force you to <asp:buttons> and so on. not to mention the paging with datagrids isn't all that flexible.

Mar 15, 2005, 13:12	#15
mx2k SitePoint Addict Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 267	yeah try to validate the markup in a validator. .net will not validate as it puts things like <script> tags without defining what kind of script it is placing, i.e javascript. and it also adds html 4.0 attributes that are no longer valid in xhtml markup, which will be fixed in asp.net 2.0, but only as far as xhtml 1.1 is concerned, not to mention inserting things like rules in tables. and i never said that it couldn't be done. it just requires extra hacking and coding. and the paging tends to be ugly by default. so the point being it wasn't an aspect that was deemed important when it was developed and even then ms helped to develop w3 standards ... so the framework should have reflected that better. unless you want to add extra IF / ELSE statements for things like radio groups then the .net structure tends to push/force for you use their template type system and what not. I usually use plain xhtml with a runat="server" and then add extra code in the code behind to adjust to it, it drives other people mad that i do so because it adds extra work.

Mar 15, 2005, 14:53	#16
cringer SitePoint Guru Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: NY, USA Posts: 710	I just ran three .NET pages, none of them failed validation because of something .NET specific. (they failed due to my own negligence, but could be fixed if I cared enough to take the time.) BTW - I'm not saying .NET will never produce invalid markup... but you seem to imply that it always does by default and that's not really the case.

Mar 15, 2005, 15:12	#17
big_al The Flying Code Monkey Join Date: May 2000 Location: New South Wales, Australia Posts: 1,723	I love seeing these pro PHP'ers always go, but PHP is free, you can use a text editor, MySql is free blah blah blah. WebMatrix (ASP.NET development Environmnet).... FREE SharpDevelop(Win Forms Development Environment).... FREE! (And Open Source!) MSDE.... FREE! (Not to mention all the other database engines that .NET can connect to... including MySql!) Now my favorite argument... When was the last time you wrote a module in PHP and used it in a desktop app? ... never I hear you say I as many others, use Visual Studio to develop my .NET applications, and I have yet to find a PHP development platform that supports the collaborative modules and source control that VS offers. Though looking forward to the new team development modules in VS 2005(6?) Just my two cents.

Mar 15, 2005, 15:25	#18
freddydoesphp Dumb PHP codin' cat Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 5,460	That is the argument of choice amongst php developers, along with native database support, ease of learning. Hell I myself started with php and used to be one of those zealots, fortunately for me I made the .NET jump in 2002 and haven't even wanted to go back.

Mar 15, 2005, 15:35	#19
igor.kudela Snowboarders die even younger Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 734	AMEN to that i am not saying php is crap but .NET is extremly good

Mar 15, 2005, 16:46	#21
CodeLes SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 157	I totally agree. I started my career in PHP (coming out of a C++ background in College) and it was great, but then .NET caught my eye and I have to admit I haven't turned back. I do have to say though that a lot of the greatness of the main IDE for .NET (Visual Studio.NET) is lost to me, since I do most of my programming in NotePad (archaic I know) and use the Dreamweaver text editor for everything else. My word to PHP is this: PHP is good because it is a well structured language. It isn't sloppy like VB (I use C#) and it doesn't lead you into the thought that you are a programmer, because it is a C-like language. You can come out of PHP and do C# with a little help from a good reference book. but then, that is my view of PHP verses .NET with C#, I will never advocate for VB (any version) because I believe it is like an Access DB verses an SQL Server 2000 DB/Oracle DB... Just my thoughts.

Mar 17, 2005, 19:39	#25
Archbob Level 8 Chinese guy Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Somewhere in this vast universe Posts: 3,806	Actually if you have GD library(or imagemagik) installed and have apache/PHP install. You can just open up the file on your desktop. But its not designed for such a purpose. The amount of PHP jobs is increasing as well. ASP.NET hasn't really made a dent in PHP's territory and PHP's popularity is growing at a fast pace. As long as ASP.NET can only run on windows hosting, I doubt it will really dent PHP.