SitePoint.com

ArticleBot · Dec 30, 2004, 01:14

This is an article discussion thread for discussing the SitePoint article, "Beware of Opening Links in a New Window"

fish · Dec 30, 2004, 14:47

Thanks Octal, I'll check out that extension sometime soon.

polvero · Dec 30, 2004, 22:30

this is funny cause i remember reading an article called New Window Links in a Standards Compliant World.

I wonder if Kevin Yank has changed his mind about his own article? Sure it's standards compliant according to the validator, but is it ethical?

polvero · Dec 31, 2004, 11:22

it's a matter of unexpentancy.
the reason you "think" windows should pop up in new windows is because that's what you've been trained.

I also run a bulletin board where I use the board to discussion the articles on the website, and it kind of gets annoying when I have new windows (or new tabs) open on the same website for no reason.

There are reasons the W3C named this attribute as "depreciated" because it takes away control from the user. It's a usability thang

Sitepoint doesn't open up new windows because it's what we're supposed to be doing. If you're going to comply with standards, do it right. It's not about trying to find work arounds to impress the validator. Target _blank should die

... and more importantly, opening up a new window unexpectantly no matter what code you use should die

polvero · Jan 2, 2005, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by polvero
this is funny cause i remember reading an article called New Window Links in a Standards Compliant World.

I wonder if Kevin Yank has changed his mind about his own article? Sure it's standards compliant according to the validator, but is it ethical?
-------------------------------

Not necessarily. He gives you the possibility to still open links in a new window if you so desire and have your code standards compliant. I don't see a problem with this.

I see a problem. The point of the xhtml strict doctype is to hold true to a certain standard. It doesn't make sense to hack the standard you're trying to achieve. If you need to write code of a lower standard, get a different doctype then.

Icheb · Jan 2, 2005, 09:22

Don't tell me that, tell that to the author of the article, Kevin Yank.

megamanXplosion · Jan 2, 2005, 23:37

I like it when sites use links like

except the text opens in the same window and the image opens a new window. This gives all users an effecient way to browse the website. I think it's also important to point out these people are new to computers, they're not mentally challanged, they're capable of learning that a big box was drawn to the screen with a different page inside of it. As long as everyone can browse the way they want, then good. If you can make it more effecient for both groups (like the solution I mentioned earlier) then great. I don't think it's wise to ruin the effeciency for one group so you can tailor for another.

jorigami · Jan 3, 2005, 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanXplosion

As long as everyone can browse the way they want, then good.

Exactly. To override new window you need to do quite unintuitive drag-link-to-addressbar, to override link opening in the same window you need to use right-click which is much more used UI feature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanXplosion

they're capable of learning that a big box was drawn to the screen with a different page inside of it

But doesn't it look just like the big box which was there before, just with different content? In Windows XP taskbar button stacking is on by default, so it's harder to see that new full-size window just popped up.

megamanXplosion · Jan 3, 2005, 11:40

Quote:

But doesn't it look just like the big box which was there before, just with different content? In Windows XP taskbar button stacking is on by default, so it's harder to see that new full-size window just popped up.

I don't think it would take someone a long amount of time to realize that it's a new window. Even if they don't realize it at first, the back button will be disabled and then a message in their head should say "this was a new window." Of course, if this is the first or second time encountering a new window then they might not realize it; however, if they already have multiple browser windows open (which is the only way for button-stacking to occur) then they should have a good idea of how new windows work and should be able to identify if a window is new.

jorigami · Jan 4, 2005, 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanXplosion

I don't think it would take someone a long amount of time to realize that it's a new window.

It takes even less time if they asked for the new window themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorigami

Quote:

Originally Posted by megamanXplosion

As long as everyone can browse the way they want, then good.

Exactly. To override new window you need to do quite unintuitive drag-link-to-addressbar, to override link opening in the same window you need to use right-click which is much more used UI feature.

Again, why are you forcing me to do unintuitive drag instead of common right-click?

Show me just one usability report encouraging opening all external links in new window as I haven't seen any.

zcorpan · Jan 3, 2005, 18:53

stevo99: If you, as a user, want to open a link in a new window... Go right ahead! You can right click on the link and choose "open link in new window", or depending on what browser and OS you use you can hold shift, ctrl or simular while clicking the link to make it open in a new window. Also, most browsers except IE will open the link in a new tab if you middle click it.

The thing is that it should be your choise how the links should open, not the one who created the website.

Webnauts · Jan 7, 2005, 17:55

Something I found today, which you might would like to have a look at.

To open a new window or not?
5 reasons to re-consider this web technique
http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/article...article.php/58

fatnewt · Jan 9, 2005, 13:19

Don't throw out statistics if you have no basis. I'm not disputing them, exactly, but you've quoted your 'belief' as your source.

I wouldn't rule out new links in every circumstance. But I do feel that new window links are far too prevelant, and are seldom presented in a truly usable and universally accessible way. Limiting their use is the first step.

Chromate222 · Jan 9, 2005, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatnewt

Don't throw out statistics if you have no basis. I'm not disputing them, exactly, but you've quoted your 'belief' as your source.

I was careful to make that clear in the post

I only used them to illustrate a point really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatnewt

I wouldn't rule out new links in every circumstance. But I do feel that new window links are far too prevelant, and are seldom presented in a truly usable and universally accessible way. Limiting their use is the first step.

Agreed! I think the real message is to excercise great care, rather than to rule them out altogether.

samsm · Jan 31, 2005, 09:07

Can anyone here think of a good reason why back button functionality doesn't work on new browser windows?

In other words, a link opens in a new window. Why isn't the back button on that new window pre-loaded with the back button history from the old window?

Seems to me like many of these useability issues are browser issues rather than webmaster issues.

redux · Jan 31, 2005, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsm

Can anyone here think of a good reason why back button functionality doesn't work on new browser windows?

because that would make absolutely no sense, and could be even more confusing, and would negate the (debatable) need for opening a window in the first place.

the only reasonable (following this logic) solution would be that once a user hits back in the new window, this window closes itself and brings its originating window to the front.

Quote:

Seems to me like many of these useability issues are browser issues rather than webmaster issues.

no, webmasters / designers need to know about the specifics of browsers and work with them to create something that's usable. claiming that browsers should behave differently to make the designer's wishes right is...disingenious, imho.

samsm · Feb 1, 2005, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by redux

because that would make absolutely no sense, and could be even more confusing, and would negate the (debatable) need for opening a window in the first place.

I suppose the amount of sense it makes is a matter of perception.

My perception would be that the user gets what they expect, a working back button. The worst case scenario for that user is that they are confused by an extra window that has content they had visited previously. More likely, they will either appreciate it being there, close it with minimal annoyance, or end up not even thinking about it.

So why open a new window, if it is essentially the same as the one that spawned it? Fair question! The advantage to opening links in a new window, as Steve related in post 82, is that hitting back more than a couple of times is confusing, and could even be difficult if a site they end up visiting utilizes a redirect that sends the user forward a page every time they hit back. I don't know if that's a good enough reason to make links open in a new window, but I can definitely see the perceived webmaster benefit.

Of course, if you are across the board opposed to "forcing" users to open links in new windows, that begs the question: "why do browsers allow webmasters to force people to open pages in new windows?". It's another browser issue. Ok, now THAT was disingenuous! I admit that on a pragmatic level, most people have browsers that allow target _blank. Fair enough, that means it is a a webmaster issue, as far as pleasing the masses goes.

However, my browsing experience is different, and I believe more ideal. My Firefox+extensions doesn't open _blank in a new window unless I decide that's where I want it. I am alerted to the webmaster's suggestion that I open the link in a new window by a little icon by the link, but it is my choice where the link goes. Not only is webmaster intervention unneeded, it would likely be either redundant or counterintuitive.

I realize that most people don't have those kinds of features, understand that they are available, or care enough to use them, but I believe that in many instances, browser side fixes offer superior fixes for usability than anything short of 100% unified action on behalf of everyone with a website.

fisicx · Feb 2, 2005, 05:06

Let us not forget the purpose of any website: to provide information, to provide goods or services or to entertain.

A huge percentage of internet users simply want their needs met. They do not care about your design or elegant code. All they want to do is navigate to the bit they want, do whatever needs to be done and leave.

If you insist that they open windows (either the whole thing or just a pop-up) every time they click on a link then their browsing experience will be soured. If you tell them what is going to happen then their wrath may be molified a little. If however you allow them to progress through a series of pages with clear navigation and quality content then the whole issue of new windows doesn't even come up. Amazon and Ebay seem to have done very well without using new windows so why should you think that your site selling widgets will be any better for having the images of widgets in a popup?

Remember: The website is for the benefit of the customer not for you. Make it as easy as possible for them to navigate from one place to the next. Opening links in new windows does not make navigation any easier: in fact it makes it more difficult because the navigation history is destroyed and the lest savvy user will not even know that a new window has been opened.

Icheb · Feb 2, 2005, 05:32

No one here is saying that *all* links within a website should open in a new window except... you. It's commonplace all around the internet to open new windows for *external* links, so how on god's earth can you argue that it will be detrimental to the user experience when they get what they are used to get? It seems to me that everyone who is saying that opening new windows for external links will have a negative impact on the user experience either has his eyes blind folded while they were surfing the web for the past couple of years or you are only navigating on your own websites.

Green Beast · Feb 18, 2005, 23:22

Personally, I really prefer external links to open a new window. Otherwise I tend to lose my place. But I see the other side of the argument as well. Both sides are valid. This is one I've tossed around for myself many times. I'm making a fairly involved site right now and have chosen to open off-site links in a new window (and most people don't know keyboard shortcuts, the average user that is). As a compromise, in all fairness to my expected visitors, I warn of this in three ways.

1) I put it in writing on the site in more than one place.
2) I warn of this in title text (tool tip).
3) I use a consistant link protocol: Uppercase links are internal, lowercase are external. Not everyone will catch these, but at least some will be forewarned.

Mike

elemental70 · Mar 23, 2005, 20:21

alright. HOwever, what if a client is insisting upon it. I wanted to use a gallery type technique from FoE's Web Designers Reference but the client was most insistent. Its for pictures of his stock. so since he pay the bills....

Icheb · Mar 23, 2005, 20:28

He pays the bills, but you are the expert. You have to educate the client on what is best for his website.

elemental70 · Mar 23, 2005, 20:37

I did educate. Showed articles, business related. explained about how we need to consider all suers not just ones that have no motor/vision probs. He didn't care. I got into this for love of the industry. Sometimes the people leave me cold!

c2uk · Jun 10, 2005, 06:22

@Icheb

As you can guess from his status of being a guest, he has just read the article and posted a comment below it. There you don't see the whole discussion, just the last few posts of this big thread. You don't get a feeling for how big it already is and how much has already been discussed if you don't click on "View all comments"

P.S. by the way, him using <em> comes also because he writes a comment rather posts in the discussion forum, so he wanted to emphasis something but there is no clue how you do it, maybe he's just a beginner with all this, so he tried the html tag. What's so wrong with that?

jabird · Jul 29, 2005, 13:34

I really hate how if you're not logged in yet, you goto sitepoint.com then click the forums link... it opens a popup about one of there books... I browse in single-window mode in Firefox, and it shrinks the window down to a box, I have to close the tab, and find the one I wanted... I usually have about 10+ tabs open, so it can be tedious...

Dec 30, 2004, 01:14	#1
ArticleBot SitePoint Articles Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 0	Article Discussion This is an article discussion thread for discussing the SitePoint article, "Beware of Opening Links in a New Window"

Jan 7, 2005, 17:55	#12
Webnauts Organic SEO Expert Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: European Union Posts: 1,577	On topic article Something I found today, which you might would like to have a look at. To open a new window or not? 5 reasons to re-consider this web technique http://www.tiffanybbrown.com/article...article.php/58

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Dec 30, 2004, 14:47	#2
fish SitePoint Zealot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Norway Posts: 187	Thanks Octal, I'll check out that extension sometime soon.

Dec 30, 2004, 22:30	#3
polvero Google Engineer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Mountain View Posts: 614	this is funny cause i remember reading an article called New Window Links in a Standards Compliant World. I wonder if Kevin Yank has changed his mind about his own article? Sure it's standards compliant according to the validator, but is it ethical?

Dec 31, 2004, 11:22	#4
polvero Google Engineer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Mountain View Posts: 614	it's a matter of unexpentancy. the reason you "think" windows should pop up in new windows is because that's what you've been trained. I also run a bulletin board where I use the board to discussion the articles on the website, and it kind of gets annoying when I have new windows (or new tabs) open on the same website for no reason. There are reasons the W3C named this attribute as "depreciated" because it takes away control from the user. It's a usability thang Sitepoint doesn't open up new windows because it's what we're supposed to be doing. If you're going to comply with standards, do it right. It's not about trying to find work arounds to impress the validator. Target _blank should die ... and more importantly, opening up a new window unexpectantly no matter what code you use should die

Jan 2, 2005, 09:22	#6
Icheb SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 1,495	Don't tell me that, tell that to the author of the article, Kevin Yank.

Jan 2, 2005, 23:37	#7
megamanXplosion SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kentucky, USA Posts: 1,091	I like it when sites use links like except the text opens in the same window and the image opens a new window. This gives all users an effecient way to browse the website. I think it's also important to point out these people are new to computers, they're not mentally challanged, they're capable of learning that a big box was drawn to the screen with a different page inside of it. As long as everyone can browse the way they want, then good. If you can make it more effecient for both groups (like the solution I mentioned earlier) then great. I don't think it's wise to ruin the effeciency for one group so you can tailor for another.

Jan 3, 2005, 18:53	#11
zcorpan ⠵ Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,423	stevo99: If you, as a user, want to open a link in a new window... Go right ahead! You can right click on the link and choose "open link in new window", or depending on what browser and OS you use you can hold shift, ctrl or simular while clicking the link to make it open in a new window. Also, most browsers except IE will open the link in a new tab if you middle click it. The thing is that it should be your choise how the links should open, not the one who created the website.

Jan 9, 2005, 13:19	#13
fatnewt I am obstructing justice. Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,769	Don't throw out statistics if you have no basis. I'm not disputing them, exactly, but you've quoted your 'belief' as your source. I wouldn't rule out new links in every circumstance. But I do feel that new window links are far too prevelant, and are seldom presented in a truly usable and universally accessible way. Limiting their use is the first step.

Jan 31, 2005, 09:07	#15
samsm SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 5,059	Can anyone here think of a good reason why back button functionality doesn't work on new browser windows? In other words, a link opens in a new window. Why isn't the back button on that new window pre-loaded with the back button history from the old window? Seems to me like many of these useability issues are browser issues rather than webmaster issues.

Feb 2, 2005, 05:06	#18
fisicx SitePoint Enthusiast Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 32	Let us not forget the purpose of any website: to provide information, to provide goods or services or to entertain. A huge percentage of internet users simply want their needs met. They do not care about your design or elegant code. All they want to do is navigate to the bit they want, do whatever needs to be done and leave. If you insist that they open windows (either the whole thing or just a pop-up) every time they click on a link then their browsing experience will be soured. If you tell them what is going to happen then their wrath may be molified a little. If however you allow them to progress through a series of pages with clear navigation and quality content then the whole issue of new windows doesn't even come up. Amazon and Ebay seem to have done very well without using new windows so why should you think that your site selling widgets will be any better for having the images of widgets in a popup? Remember: The website is for the benefit of the customer not for you. Make it as easy as possible for them to navigate from one place to the next. Opening links in new windows does not make navigation any easier: in fact it makes it more difficult because the navigation history is destroyed and the lest savvy user will not even know that a new window has been opened.

Feb 2, 2005, 05:32	#19
Icheb SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 1,495	No one here is saying that all links within a website should open in a new window except... you. It's commonplace all around the internet to open new windows for external links, so how on god's earth can you argue that it will be detrimental to the user experience when they get what they are used to get? It seems to me that everyone who is saying that opening new windows for external links will have a negative impact on the user experience either has his eyes blind folded while they were surfing the web for the past couple of years or you are only navigating on your own websites.

Feb 18, 2005, 23:22	#20
Green Beast SitePoint Addict Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Nottingham NH Posts: 261	Personally, I really prefer external links to open a new window. Otherwise I tend to lose my place. But I see the other side of the argument as well. Both sides are valid. This is one I've tossed around for myself many times. I'm making a fairly involved site right now and have chosen to open off-site links in a new window (and most people don't know keyboard shortcuts, the average user that is). As a compromise, in all fairness to my expected visitors, I warn of this in three ways. 1) I put it in writing on the site in more than one place. 2) I warn of this in title text (tool tip). 3) I use a consistant link protocol: Uppercase links are internal, lowercase are external. Not everyone will catch these, but at least some will be forewarned. Mike

Mar 23, 2005, 20:21	#21
elemental70 SitePoint Addict Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 230	alright. HOwever, what if a client is insisting upon it. I wanted to use a gallery type technique from FoE's Web Designers Reference but the client was most insistent. Its for pictures of his stock. so since he pay the bills....

Mar 23, 2005, 20:28	#22
Icheb SitePoint Wizard Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 1,495	He pays the bills, but you are the expert. You have to educate the client on what is best for his website.

Mar 23, 2005, 20:37	#23
elemental70 SitePoint Addict Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 230	I did educate. Showed articles, business related. explained about how we need to consider all suers not just ones that have no motor/vision probs. He didn't care. I got into this for love of the industry. Sometimes the people leave me cold!

Jun 10, 2005, 06:22	#24
c2uk :mad: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,315	@Icheb As you can guess from his status of being a guest, he has just read the article and posted a comment below it. There you don't see the whole discussion, just the last few posts of this big thread. You don't get a feeling for how big it already is and how much has already been discussed if you don't click on "View all comments" P.S. by the way, him using <em> comes also because he writes a comment rather posts in the discussion forum, so he wanted to emphasis something but there is no clue how you do it, maybe he's just a beginner with all this, so he tried the html tag. What's so wrong with that?

Jul 29, 2005, 13:34	#25
jabird 011110010110000101111001 Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: U.S. Posts: 593	I really hate how if you're not logged in yet, you goto sitepoint.com then click the forums link... it opens a popup about one of there books... I browse in single-window mode in Firefox, and it shrinks the window down to a box, I have to close the tab, and find the one I wanted... I usually have about 10+ tabs open, so it can be tedious...