US refusal of offer to UN

[Gryff]

Originally posted by Woody
WHEN did the US agree to not develop ANY weapons of mass destruction?

errrr


http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...ecord.html#npt

[rabmurdy]

Originally posted by Polymath
As I understand it, the Saudis agreed that the US could use Saudi airspace to launch attacks on Iraq. The moment Saddam realised that, he knew the game was up, and he was like:
"Oh, you said 'inspectors'? I thought you said you were going to 'infect us'. No, of course, silly misunderstanding, that's fine, come in come in! Cup of tea?"

As for the other stuff, I don't know, just assassinate Saddam and his twisted son. That should do the trick.

You understand it incorrectly then, the Saudis are only willing to allow their airbases be used if it is a UN backed operation, and that looks very unlikely at the moment.

You are probably right about the assasination way of taking Saddam out of the equation, but do you think the other Arab states would stand by and watch one of the leaders in the area be assasinated ?

I don't think so.

Rab

[TheOriginalH]

Nor should they be expected to. A lot of counries around the world are appalled at the Bush regime, but I'm sure they'd all jump if Bush were assasinated...

[Gryff]

I think the world would be more stable if Bush was assassinated rather than Saddam.

[BuriedAlive]

I think the world would be more stable if Bush was assassinated rather than Saddam.

I agree

[DaveMaxwell]

Originally posted by Gryff
I think the world would be more stable if Bush was assassinated rather than Saddam.

OK. That's the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. This will be the last post I will ever make in this forum and the last time I even click into it. I've come to realize this is a US-bashing area in the forum, but to state something like this it beyond even reason.

Have fun US bashing all!

[neil100]

Yes I agree the US should be beyond criticism, George Bush is perfect.

[TheOriginalH]

Originally posted by DaveMaxwell


OK. That's the straw that broke the proverbial camels back. This will be the last post I will ever make in this forum and the last time I even click into it. I've come to realize this is a US-bashing area in the forum, but to state something like this it beyond even reason.

Have fun US bashing all!

I don't see that as US bashing, just Bush bashing, something many US residents indulge in also. I note your reaction wasn't the same when the assisinate Saddam post was made - and it's evident that there's plenty of Iraq bashing going on...

[DaveMaxwell]

OK, I said it was the last time before, but I couldn't resist when TOH posted. His posts are always...."interesting", and are usually fair. He bashes everyone, his own country included. Equally opportunistic basher

You're right, I didn't react the same way to the assassination of Saddam statement. I was going to and then saw the post by Gryff. Both statements are equally heinous. To wish someone assassinated, regardless of how evil that person may be, is just incredibly wrong.

I am not saying that Bush is perfect. In fact, I think this whole situation with Iraq is ridiculous and has been for a number of years now, but it's like a presidential tradition to cover up the mistakes of previous presidents by continuing the inane policies of his predecessor, especially in terms of world affairs. My problem with this whole forum lately is that everything in the world is 100% the fault of the US. The US doesn't do this, the US doesn't do that.

I guess it's just the "patriot" in me that gets a rise everytime I step into this forum, and I don't think it's worth the rise in my blood pressure to keep coming in here and hearing all the stuff the US does wrong without ANY acknowledgement of what we do right.

Now, I'm outta here....

[Gryff]

I didnt say I wanted either assassinated, I merely stated my belief that the world would be a less turbulant place with bush out of the way, rather than iraq out of the way.

[TheOriginalH]

Originally posted by DaveMaxwell
[B] He bashes everyone, his own country included. Equally opportunistic basher

I'm glad someone recognises it

You're right, I didn't react the same way to the assassination of Saddam statement. I was going to and then saw the post by Gryff. Both statements are equally heinous. To wish someone assassinated, regardless of how evil that person may be, is just incredibly wrong.

Agreed.

My problem with this whole forum lately is that everything in the world is 100% the fault of the US. The US doesn't do this, the US doesn't do that.

Unfortunately that does reflect world opinion, rightly or wrongly...

I guess it's just the "patriot" in me that gets a rise everytime I step into this forum, and I don't think it's worth the rise in my blood pressure to keep coming in here and hearing all the stuff the US does wrong without ANY acknowledgement of what we do right.

Fair 'nuff and fair point. In defence of the attackers (and obviously on occassion I'm included), more often than not the "wrong" things are justified in a fudged manner, which is perhaps why the "right" things (which certainly exist), are glossed over or ignored and the wrong focused on.

It'll be a shame not seeing you round here, but if the posts really do give ya high blood pressure, then it ain't worth the aggro

H

[Gryff]

Originally posted by DaveMaxwell

I guess it's just the "patriot" in me that gets a rise everytime I step into this forum, and I don't think it's worth the rise in my blood pressure to keep coming in here and hearing all the stuff the US does wrong without ANY acknowledgement of what we do right.

When do you hear about good things in the news?
Its mostly the things we disagree with that we are vocal about, rather than the things we agree with.
When we remain silent on an issue its usually because we agree, and thus theres no reason to debate it, or we dont really mind either way.

PS: I bash anyone who does something I disagree with regardless of country, actually I'd rant about Tony Blah If I thought anyone gave a rats **** outside the UK.

[allie]

Dave Maxwell's post: My problem with this whole forum lately is that everything in the world is 100% the fault of the US. The US doesn't do this, the US doesn't do that.

Toh response to Dave Maxwell: Unfortunately that does reflect world opinion, rightly or wrongly...

Fortunately that DOES NOT reflect world opinion! That is YOUR opinion and the opinion of SOME posters at SitePoint. Other people in the world may share your opinion but "the world" does not.

Unfortunately, you and others who think like you, have run off many posters who disagree with your unrelenting anti-US propaganda. Before you know it, you may all be preaching to the choir! No fun at all!

Will I leave? Not only NO, but hell NO! I would also encourage others who have left to return. Otherwise, some of the young people on this forum are likely to buy in to your BS.

[Jeremy W.]

Have I mentioned how much the mention of Krispy Kreme makes me "happy"?

[makeda]

Originally posted by Jeremy W.
Have I mentioned how much the mention of Krispy Kreme makes me "happy"?

ROTFL

[TheOriginalH]

Allie, heard of the UN? Read any of the world press lately? Can you direct me to an article not written in the US which is in full support? Did you not the bit in the post that left the opinion objective (rightly or wrongly). Don't get personal, or refer to what I post as BS, since half the time you don't actually read it in context anyway. You'll also note that I encouraged Dave not to stop posting - not attempting to drive anyone away - quite the opposite - it's a little hard to a: debate and b: get world views if everyone agrees and is from the same area.

You'll also note that while you don't recognise what I post as "anti-what-I-consider-to-be-wrong", not anti-US (as I've said countless times before that broad-stance is ignorant), Dave, who I was responding to, does...

Jeremy - don't know what a Krispy Kreme is, but can ya sling one this way? I fancy a happy buzz at the mo

[makeda]

Krispy Kremes

Originally founded in Winston Salem, North Carolina!!

[TheOriginalH]

Mmmmm - doughnuts.....

[allie]

toh,

Watching fingers as I type. Trying very hard to be nice.

Allie, heard of the UN? Read any of the world press lately?

Yes. Insulting that you ask.

Don't get personal, or refer to what I post as BS, since half the time you don't actually read it in context anyway.

Just how is one to read "Did you not the bit in the post that left the opinion objective (rightly or wrongly)" in context?

You'll also note that I encouraged Dave not to stop posting -

But, the point is he did and he's not the only one, or have you noticed?

I live in North Carolina. I can have all the Krispy Creme donuts I want! Thinking evil thoughts now about what I would like to do with one of them.

[Gryff]

Debate provokes thought and changes, when people hear something abhorrent to them, I hope it does shock them, and I hope they DO think about it.

Maybe if someone had done that to oh I dont know....Hitler, he wouldnt have been the genocidal lunatic he was.

The point being, not everyone agrees with you, in fact if everyone did I'd be distinctly worried, if you cant listen to anothers argument, attempt to point out its flaws or counter-argue, then you just dont want to realise your viewpoint is flawed, or dont feel your argument or point can hold water.

A few ( rare I know ), someone elses post has changed my opinion, and i've said so, likewise i've had a few ( 3 *G* ) pm's saying they have agreed with my viewpoint on some issue or another.

Anyway the point being, if you want to be a turtle and live in your hole then please go and do it.

If, whilst your country is debating whether to invade a country, and certainly inflict civilian casualties, not that Sanctions are not already doing so, you get offended by someones comment, then think how you would feel if your country was in the vice of a dictator, and your country was raped and pillaged by your leaders and foreigners.

[Hellbent]

Originally posted by Gryff
5. oh right, go bomb an afghan wedding party instead

Excellent idea. Stop them before they breed.

[rabmurdy]

Dave,

I think you are making the same mistake others have done, taking it personaly. These discussions/debates are for everyones benefit, not just those who agree with each other.
I don't think anyone is US bashing in this post, but there are several who are critical of American policy abroad, which affects us remember, we are the ones 'abroad'.

I think it is excellent that we can hear/read each others opinions on such matters, far better than getting an opinion of someone from the tv/stereotype. There is enough information going around thats accessible to most on the internet, we are able to see and read stuff that the normal tv viewer wont get to see. Because of this I reckon the discussions in here can be argued very well from both points of view.

Put simply, if you don't like something you read then it is a simple search on google and a bit of research to come back on the topic with an answer for the post. Or you can be part of the silent majority, sit back read the posts and Tut Tut away, then go surfing to do something else.

The Iraq situation is not a cut and dried situation as most who agree to conflict seem to think, it is much more complicated.
The people who choose to go to war don't do so in my name, in fact it's times like this I wish Scotland was an independent country....But then maybe the UN would have a go at us for upsetting the UK!

I don't know about anyone else, but I learn stuff I never knew when I come here, some of the links that are posted are excellent....And some are just plain scary..

My own opinion is that the more who respond to the posts the more knowledgable we all can become, and benefit from. I don't hate anyone, least of all Americans, I will help anyone who posts in this forum if I know how to help them. This is how it should be, we can all have a difference of opinion, but we all got to be strong enough to voice our opinions rather than just surfing through this section of the forum.


Rab

[makeda]

While reading these forums I always hear people going on about "american double standards" and "ooohhh you supported this guy and now you don't like him so you want to get rid of him". I am a firm believer in choosing one's battles. I came across this editorial in this week's Time Magazine which I felt provides a succinct counter to the "double standards" arguement. The essay was written by Charles Krauthammer. Unfortunately it won't be online until next week, so I had to transcrible the whole thing!! (forgive the typos)

Ever since the U.S. unveiled its radical new policy of bringing democracy to the Islamic world - whether through reform in Palestine or at the point of a gun in Iraq - the Bush Administration has come under attack for inconsistency and hypocrisy.

...examples of american press denouncing bush...

But wait. How did we win the cold war? We fought and won the cold war, and thus liberated tens of millions of people, because we prudently, albeit reluctantly, tolerated unfreedom in certain places. Why? In order to win the larger battle for freedom on a global scale. Today we "coddle" Musharraf of Pakistan, Mubarak of Egypt, the Saudi princes. Yesterday we coddled Pinochet of Chile, Marcos of the Philippines, the Shah of Iran, Mobutu of Zaire and a train of South Vietnamese generals.

Why? First, because, for all their faults, they were at the time better for their own people than those who would replace them. In those countries, the alternative to autocracy was not democracy but often totalitarianism. We know all too well the history of misery that followed the fall of our very flawed friends: genocide in Cambodia, boat people in Vietnam, theocratic thuggery in Iran, catastrophoic war in Zaire.

Second, because we often need such dictators to win the larger struggle against global threat to liberty - Nazism, communism, Islamic radicalism. Did we not, after all, join with Stalin, one of the great monsters of the 20th century, in order to defeat Hitler? Does anyone doubt the morality of that alliance? It is the principle of the lesser evil. As Churchill once famously said, "If I were told that the devil were on poorer terms with Hitler, I should find myself making an alliance with hell".

Alliance with hell is justified as long as it is temporary. When Hitler was defeated, we stopped coddling Stalin. Forty years later, as communism ebbed, the U.S. helped overthrow Marcos and ease out Pinochet. We withdrew our support for those dictators once the two conditions that justify such alliances had disappeared.

Such distinctions apply with equal force today. Musharraf is no democrat. Yet it is neccesary to support him for now because he has enlisted Pakistan in our life or death struggle against radical Islam. And does anyone doubt that his overthrow would lead to more chaos and suffering within his country?

As for the Saudis, their regime is seriously corrupt and seriously repressive. Nonetheless, considering the neighborhood, it is hardly the worst. In time, we should want reform, perhaps even revolution in Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, social democrats are today in short supply there, and we cannot by sheer act of will create them.

Everything in its time. We cannot destabilize every regime at once and hope by some miracle to escape chaos. The idea that we betray our principles if we do not demand universal democracy-immediately and everywhere-is as ironic as it is Utopian. America is daily attacked for cowboy interventionalism and arrogant unilateralism-then simultaneously attacked for not acting unilaterally to cleanse the planet of all tyranny.

Does that mean we should do nothing to promote democracy in friendly dictatorships? No. It simply means that wheras places like Iran and Iraq we push for democracy by provoking regime change, in friendly dictatorships we push for democracy only up to the point of instability. We dare not risk regime change -yet- because of the deluge that would follow.

The New York Times denounces America's "dancing with dictators." Guilty as charged. Dance we do. And without apology. With no more apology than Franklin Roosevelt offered when he reportedly said of Nicaragua's Anastasio Somoza, "He may be a son of a bi*ch. But he's our son of a bi%ch."

Roosevelt was a grownup. He made choices. He slew his dragons one at a time. He understood that we do not live in the best of all possible worlds. He understood that in an international arena populated by sons of bi%ches, you make your distinctions, or you die.

[Jeremy W.]

Sorry, but my biggest reaction to the above article is "pfft". Personally, my issues with hypocrisy have nothing to do with supporting one world leader while denouncing others (besides, the point of "lesser evil" is moot, there is nobody else in Iraq, it would be totalitarianism).

In the ICC, out of the ICC.

In Kyoto, out of Kyoto.

In arms treaties, out of arms treaties.

Terrorism is bad, let's assault nations.

And on and on. The list isn't short, and the only reason I can "stand" the above inconsistencies is because I finally "get" Americans. They want what's best for them first and foremost. That's truly foreign to me.

[mmi]

Chuckie Krauthammer is an inveterate apologist for the disastrous foreign adventures undertaken by the US since WWII - democracy was achievable in Vietnam - but we didn't give a crap about the Vietnamese people and their human rights - we insisted they leave their country open to economic exploitation by Western powers - Ho told 'em t' screw and the fight was on

the U.S. helped overthrow Marcos and ease out Pinochet.

HAH!! - tell that to Benigno Aquino - 'course you'll need to dig 'im up first - just exactly how in the hell did the US "help overthrow Marcos"??? - Phillipinos were being slaughtered daily in the streets of Manila and other cities by military forces still loyal to the dictator Marcos and we did NOTHING!!! - the Shah of Iran and Pinochet??? - they were better than what??? - makeda, this creep spouts some of the most insidious and evil rhetoric imaginable - don't be swayed by its apparent sophistication - when this pig appears on television, I hit that mute button in no time flat - BARF!!!