who should be providing/creating the content for a site?

[grahamallen]

Originally Posted by Shyflower

Of course you don't fly blind on a project. The business owner has to provide the business information. Then it's up to the writer to sell the business to the website visitor. Most business owners neither have the time, the copywriting skills nor the interest in writing their own web content. They are involved in running their business and the website is often just a small part of the whole picture.

You'd be surprised at how many small business people jump at the chance to have professionally written content on their websites. Last year alone, I wrote content for over 50 of them. To the small businessman, time is money and they are very grateful to have content crossed from their todo lists.

Obviously, we're coming at this subject from different perspectives. You, as a content specialist and me as a design specialist. I don't wholly disagree with you, as I've stated previously, however, I still stand firm in my understanding of the clients I have worked with: they want as much as they can get for as little as they can get.

I had a potential client shop me out just two weeks ago. My partner and I had a glowing rapport with this client right off the bat and we sold our services very well. Then we didn't hear from her for five days, so we called her to follow-up. For a nominal savings, she shopped us out to the lowest bidder. This gets into business practices and that's something that my partner and I are working on; we should have had a contract in place. Still, the price we quoted her for the work was a very nice price.

I work very closely with my clients on content, but the difficulties in getting the client to deliver market-specific information to develop that content around can become unruly, especially with small business owners. Particularly when there are so many out there who are not technologically savvy in the least.

Of course, this discussion hasn't even taken into account the differences in content volume. Some owners want a very simple brochure style site with a couple of pages. Others want a fully-dynamic and manageable solution that is rich in content and routinely updated. Obviously, those in the latter category are much more likely to pay for content creation, but they still tend to EXPECT that the design and development quote also includes content creation, technical support and maintenance. I think this is the difficulty that all of us who are in this line of work will have and it is easily curbed by writing clear and concise contracts that break-out in detailed verbiage exactly what the client is paying for.

I wanted to touch on one other point that was made earlier in the thread that's been bothering me a bit:

If your only reason for being in web development is to earn money, you won't last long.

From one perspective, this point holds true for anyone in any profession. Money pays the bills. Some people have the luxury of more extravagant bills, because they make better money. But, at the end of the day, the bills are the bills and self-gratification is self-gratification. I spend every amount of spare time I have working on honing the craft with my own little pet projects. This is because I enjoy it. I've taken on pro bono projects as a mutually beneficial endeavor with friends and colleagues as well. It is advantageous to do this at times to build portfolio and further enhance the skill-set. But as an enterprising individual who wants to generate income in the field, money and budgets HAVE to be taken into account. Obviously, those guys who are posting those cardboard signs advertising turn-key templates don't have that sense of self-satisfaction that comes with doing the work. There's a distinct difference, but it's a difference that exists and it's a difference that negatively impacts those of us who are trying to earn an honest living.

[Shyflower]

Originally Posted by grahamallen

...and we sold our services very well. Then we didn't hear from her for five days, so we called her to follow-up. For a nominal savings, she shopped us out to the lowest bidder. This gets into business practices and that's something that my partner and I are working on; we should have had a contract in place.

So, you see the problem "should have had a contract in place". One of the first premises of sales is "Close, close, and close again." That's something you didn't or weren't prepared to do.

Nearly all credible business people want one thing—value for dollar. If you can show the added value your services give them and you are prepared to move ahead (contract), you'll usually (not always but usually) get the business. But you have to ask for it. Although I don't know the details, it looks as if your lower-priced competitor did and was prepared to move ahead.

Originally Posted by grahamallen

I work very closely with my clients on content, but the difficulties in getting the client to deliver market-specific information to develop that content around can become unruly, especially with small business owners. Particularly when there are so many out there who are not technologically savvy in the least.

Getting content from a client has little to do with "market" specifity and nothing to do with technology. It has to do with being genuinely interested, first in the project and second in your client's business success. Yes, it is difficult sometimes to get business information from clients. Like us, they are busy people and short on time to do anything but run their day to day business: service their existing customers, control their inventory, keep their books. Web content is peripheral to them.

What is amazing to me is that, knowing the difficulty in getting basic information, how can anyone expect them to take the time to put their business information into sales copy even if they do have the skills to write web content?

Instead, ask a few questions (express some interest). Have you prepared the content for you site? Do you have a copywriter in mind?

From my standpoint, I ask my prospective clients if their content will go into an existing web site or if they have a designer. I make it clear that I don't do design but that I can help them find a designer if they need help.

Originally Posted by grahamallen

they still tend to EXPECT that the design and development quote also includes content creation, technical support and maintenance. I think this is the difficulty that all of us who are in this line of work will have and it is easily curbed by writing clear and concise contracts that break-out in detailed verbiage exactly what the client is paying for.

Yes, some business people think that web professionals are "jacks of all trades". It's part of our job to let them know at the beginning what services we do and what services we don't provide. Of course, formal proposals and contracts should do that, but I believe it's better to give them information before they have your proposal in hand. After all, it takes time to write a good proposal. If your prospects know what to expect from your proposal, you'll have a better chance of getting it accepted.

As far as being in business for the money-- of course we are. The definitive word there was "only". If you want to be successful in this business, you have to have a genuine interest in turning out the best web sites you can possibly turn out; for your own self-gratification, for your clients, and for the Internet. In short, web providers (and note I didn't use the word professionals) who are here only to make a quick buck won't last over the long term. As I said early, people want value for dollar, not matter how much money they have to spend.

Finally, those prospects who approach you on price-point alone, are probably those you don't want to work for. Just today I got an "invitation" from a free-lancer site. The moron wants a 1,000 word, original, creative article (with a SPIN ON IT) for $10.00 plus he thinks his writer should post his article on 150 blogs (What?) and social media sites over the next month. People like that make me wish that my recycle bin was an incinerator. There is always someone out there who wants to buy a Ferrari at a skateboard price. IMO, you're better off not to waste one minute of time on them.

[bholli]

Ok, so I said this yesterday...

Originally Posted by bholli

Plumbers don't build houses, Doctors don't clean windows, and Lawyers don't wash cars. The point? Be firm in the description of services that you render. Don't let someone else dictate the services you render professionally. In your initial interview with a potential client, directly ask them "who will provide the content for the web project?" If they don't have the means to do so, disclose that you do not do it. Or, if you do decide to do so, charge accordingly.

That statement was contradicted with this...

Originally Posted by Shyflower

I'd be real careful about how firm I was in telling a potential client what I don't do. They just may go find someone who can do it all.

Then, my original statement was supported with this...

Originally Posted by Shyflower

Yes, some business people think that web professionals are "jacks of all trades". It's part of our job to let them know at the beginning what services we do and what services we don't provide. Of course, formal proposals and contracts should do that, but I believe it's better to give them information before they have your proposal in hand. After all, it takes time to write a good proposal. If your prospects know what to expect from your proposal, you'll have a better chance of getting it accepted.

Official Conclusion: Be firm in what services you provide. Shyflower said earlier that many business owners have neither the time nor the skills to write their content. But neither do many professional web developers. Unfortunately, that's not what we excel at. If we did, we wouldn't be professional web developers...we'd be professional content writers.

Just think about it...if you, as a professional content writer, chose to spend most of your time researching xhtml markup standards, new css standards, learning programming languages, or even learning database development techniques, you wouldn't have time to excel in your field of expertise, which is content writing. Well, the same is true concerning the opposite.

So, no matter what services you choose to offer, it is of the utmost importance that this be stated at the beginning...And before any work commences, an agreement should already be made as to where the content will come from, whether that be the developer, designer, business owner, or a professional copywriter.

[Shyflower]

Originally Posted by bholli

So, no matter what services you choose to offer, it is of the utmost importance that this be stated at the beginning...And before any work commences, an agreement should already be made as to where the content will come from, whether that be the developer, designer, business owner, or a professional copywriter.

First of all, actually I do keep up with standards, etc. for two reasons. First of all, I need to have a competent knowledge of how the web works so that I can better serve my clients and second, I do design my own sites. I just don't do it as part of my business. Now that "that" is said...

It may have seemed like I was contradicting you, but I do agree with your first statement... to a point.

Yes you should be clear about what you do from the getgo. If you don't provide a particular service that they need, you should tell your prospect that you don't so they don't walk away with any false expectations. But, there are ways to let them know other than saying "I don't provide 'that'".

As I suggested, the question, "Do you have content (or a designer, programmer, web host, domain registration) ready to go for your web site", lets them know they need specific services. If you don't provide those services you can offer to put them in touch with someone who does. In that way I help you, you help me and we both help the prospect build the best web site his budget can afford.

IMO, this is win-win all the way around, particularly noting the fact that our businesses (web professionals) are built around referrals. If I recommend you to a prospect, then you are more inclined to recommend me. If you collaborate with me on your project, I am more inclined to collaborate with you on one of mine. And the client is more apt to recommend us both as web businesses know what it takes to build a great web site.

Over and over I hear how small design firms and freelancers can't compete with larger design agency and how they can't compete with the boiler-plate, turn-key, 5 page wonder-children. However, you can compete if you show your prospects that your services offer them the best value for dollar. If you are going to call yourself (not just you bholli-- anyone) a web developer, then show your prospects that you are interested in their web site and their business, not just your part of the whole picture.

This is getting overly long and a bit off-topic, but I think it all comes down to respect. There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads at SitePoint where these five-page wonder children complain about scope creep, not getting paid, etc. etc. etc. and just as many where clients complain that their web developer didn't complete the job to their satisfaction. Generally, these threads show a lack of respect from one party or the other or both.

Businesses come to us to build websites. Not to get design only, content only, etc. Sales, in any business, is helping a customer determine their needs and fulfilling them. If you can do that, you're ahead of the hacks. If you show your prospective clients that you respect their businesses and their needs, you'll start building their respect for the business of web development and your part in that business.

[aliceslipped]

I think that if the client chooses to not invest in a content writer, that it is their responsibility - they can't expect the developer to do it all.

However, and this is my opinion because I am a pretty decent writer, I would not be completely against helping to write the content. Let me stress that again, helping with content. I wouldn't mind checking spelling and consistency and things like that. But like everyone else said, only the business owner knows exactly what they want to say and how they should say it.

That said, if my client did expect me to write content, I would definitely charge for it, because content-writing can be irritating. I would also make it clear that content is not my forte and not to expect anything amazing perfect and life-changing.

[dvduval]

It has been my experience over the years that clients who can't take the time to write content for the site will likely see the website fail, or at least have results that are less than expected. In recent years I tell the client straight up about this in the beginning. If they don't have to help with the content, they don't have time for me to build a website for them right now.

[DCrux]

Without content creators, there would be no need for a CMS. Yet surprisingly, this user group is often the worst served by a new content management system.
-- Knowledge management consultant James Robertson

James Robertson is charting the collateral damage from the survey results here.

I dearly hope none of you have anything to do with CMS development. None of which requires you to write the content, but does require such an intimate knowledge and facility with writing that you could.

And a CMS that works for the client will require just as much knowledge of the client business as writing the content, perhaps even more but not less.

A Content Management System is not a Joomla install with a pretty template. Being a developer who has nothing to do with 1) Users and 2) Writing means you're not installing a content management system. You can not divorce yourself for the singular purpose of the system, then insist you're a developer of the system.

Sorry, but the users of a CMS system are writers, among others. And CMS installs regularly fail. They fail because the developer saw their job as installing software, not designing a system for the use of writers ...editors ....effective employee collaboration ...project management ...customer conversion ....the content needs of management ...and a few others.

Developing the content strategy where the CMS work for the client objectives makes just writing content look downright simple.

And no, the software developers of Joomla, Drupal and the rest haven't a clue. Why? The feedback comes from CMS installers who don't write, refuse to write, and want nothing to do with writers. (That would be the users of the CMS system).

Related:

Things That Go Bump in Your CMS Project

Content-tious Strategy A List Apart

[pixelsoul]

The client... but usually it will be very bad content.. so the website maker is responsible

[joebert]

I think the client should provide something, and if need be the webmaster would bring the content up to par.

[aaboobacker]

the owner write the content and information and gives to designer and designer changes the grammer and sentence and publish it. owner has to help from first to last as the design and layout will be from designer. information si from owner.

[jeffvdovjak]

I think that writing content falls to the client as they know their field best. However, if a designer is also a decent copy writer, the designer should give them tips. At the very least the designer should help educate the business owner on how to better write for the web (ie. short paragraphs, short copy, call to actions, ect).
Yet I believe that designers should be good writers (or someone in the web design company should be) who can go over their copy and make it better. The meaning has to be provided by the client - but the clarity, focus, and pizazz can be added by the designer.

[aussiedomainer]

I have developed a few small sites for small businesses and ensure they know that the content is their responsibility. I am happy to help or outsource this if they require but it must be clear that this will be at an additional cost. I charge a very low rate for the web design that I do in the beginning so cannot afford for additional tasks such as this to eat into the already small profit margin. Whatever you decide just make sure everything's clear so that neither party are disappointed or feel ripped off at the end of the transaction.

[01globalnet]

It is the client's responsibility to deliver the content. If the client has no content or no time to create content and asks the website maker to do so, then all this work is billable.

[Stormrider]

Generally the client, but it depends on what services your company offer. If you ahve a copywriter, then that is their job, and is a service you can offer to clients.

[Stevie D]

I've voted for "client", but with a caveat.

In an ideal situation, the client would supply an outline of the content, and the web-person would re-write/format/purpose it for the web.

It's unlikely that I would know enough about a client's business, markets and ethos to write content that says the right things for that client's company. At the same time, it is unlikely that the client would have as good an understanding about what makes good web copy. So what I like to do is get the client to give me draft copy, that says what he wants to say, in the style he wants to say it. Then I will work on it to make it suitable for the web - all sorts of little things to tweak, like shortening paragraphs, using bullets where appropriate, softening the tone sometimes, cross-linking - as well as the usual editing and suggestions that any good publisher would do.

[Shyflower]

Originally Posted by Stevie D

editing and suggestions that any good publisher would do.

Although I believe that most clients are best served in having their content written by a copywriting professional, this is spot on and the very least a web developer should do. It's nice to see that there are those that see their job in the proper perspective. Design without content is nothing. Developers are inherently publishers of web content. The design is only the hardback cover and dust jacket, nothing more.

[PatrickSamphire]

I'm not sure why we would expect the client to write the content any more than we would expect them to do the graphic design. Both are skilled jobs that are unsuited to most business owners or staff.

I suspect the attitude that content should be the job of the client comes about from the fact that content is still not very highly-valued on websites, which in turn explains why the content is so *bad* on so many websites.

So, unless a business had their own content writer, I would definitely try to persuade them to have the content written professionally. (And, as a few others have said, it really isn't hard to write specialist content, as long as you discuss the aims, requirements and audience at the beginning of the project and as long as you get it checked for accuracy.)

[DCrux]

I suspect the attitude that content should be the job of the client comes about from the fact that content is still not very highly-valued on websites, which in turn explains why the content is so *bad* on so many websites.

Your observation seems to be at odds with the consensus the client knows their business best.

We've all encountered teachers who knew their subject, but were poor at communicating subject matter to others. Knowing your field is not the same as knowing how to communicate in a compelling way.

And the "clients can't afford effective content" argument makes about as much sense as a used car dealer selling cars that don't run because they're cheaper if they don't fix 'em.

One small business owner I encountered had no money for effective marketing. However, that same guy had thousands to blow on alcohol and exotic dancers. That guy's business -- the one he was so expert about -- no longer exists.

Another guy was on a strict budget: $3,000 per month. He never offered up the actual numbers, of course.

So the next time clients say your business building, self-funding services aren't in the budget -- you had best check on what is in the budget.

[PatrickSamphire]

Originally Posted by DCrux

Your observation seems to be at odds with the consensus the client knows their business best.

It's possible that the client knows the business best, but it's unlikely that they know best how to present their business best on the web.

The problem is, as it always has been, that there is a perception that anyone can do a website. It might have been true when the web was just starting and we were all amateurs, but I don't think it's been true for a long time now.

If only people would realise that building and maintaining an effective website is as expert a job as anything else in business, we would all have a better time of it.

[DCrux]

It's possible that the client knows the business best, but it's unlikely that they know best how to present their business best on the web.

Exactly. A client may know all there is about making a widget.

Famous copywriter Claude Hopkins knew next to nothing about making beer. He visited the client plant. Saw the beer making process, and decided to write an ad about it.

The client objected, saying everyone does pretty much the same thing.

Claude Hopkins persisted, and the ad was amazingly successful. Hopkins knew the reader impression would be everyone else does less. Even when they later come out and say they also use artesian wells and such, the competitors come off sounding like an imitator.


Related:

Claude Hopkins Schlitz Beer Ad What clients think is irrelevant can be important to the reader. What the client might think of as important could be trivial to the potential customer.

[George Susini]

Content should be written in conjunction with the Designer/developer doing the SEO. If you don’t do the research on the target market then how can you have a total package website that is found in google ? I let my clients take the first draft, then research the leywords, then have the marketing specialist rewrite it effective for SEO. The client should do the first draft though.

[DCrux]

doing the SEO.

And there's another dimension where the client isn't always right. One SEO I know calls keyword research a "cold shower moment," when the client finds out the keywords they thought their customers would use aren't nearly as popular as others.

[Shyflower]

Originally Posted by DCrux

And there's another dimension where the client isn't always right. One SEO I know calls keyword research a "cold shower moment," when the client finds out the keywords they thought their customers would use aren't nearly as popular as others.

Make that two. Actually doing keyword research and finding the terms people use as keywords that aren't being searched for is a laugh in itself.

Very good point, Dcrux and just one more reason why clients shouldn't write their own content.

[5tevooo]

Who should provide content?

Assuming you mean text, well in most cases it makes sense for the client to be responsible for supplying content.

If you as a web designer/developer have the skills and want to offer a copywriting service, then by all means offer this to your client, but it's a very separate skill/service, and you should charge for it accordingly.

Most web designers/developers don't offer this - understandably, because their area of expertise won't necessarily include writing good copy.

Big clients will mostly have in-house marketing departments/individuals (or external marketing consultants) to write their copy, whether it's for a brochure or a website.

Smaller clients with smaller budgets/workforces will typically either (a) cobble something together themselves, or (b) hire a marketing/copywriting consultant (or even an SEO specialist) to provide the copy.

Bottom line: as a web designer/developer, you're typically NOT expected to write the copy, unless you specifically make a point of offering this service. Otherwise, assume you're just providing what you say you are: design, technical development, SEO advice, etc.

(On that last point: you may want to offer advice about key words and phrases, but again this is only if you are actually offering SEO as part of your ouvre - not every web designer goes into SEO beyond the basic search engine-friendly HTML, picking out phrases for the title tag, adding alt attributes, etc)

Of course none of that means you shouldn't communicate with the client about their text content. By all means look through what they provide, and tell them if you think it would benefit from a polish/rewrite. Also tell them if it's not suitable for a website (paragraphs too long, not enough subheads, etc) and correct any spelling errors if you're sure they're errors. But that's usually as far as it goes ...unless you charge them extra!

[DCrux]

If you as a web designer/developer have the skills and want to offer a copywriting service, then by all means offer this to your client, but it's a very separate skill/service, and you should charge for it accordingly.

Exactly. It's an option. A value added service for those who see it as part of the service they provide and their business philosophy.

Too often it's not an option. And the very idea is alien.

Test offering writing services. Don't sabotage the test, give it a fair chance. Then decide. If you're not comfortable talking about written content, have the writer handle that part. You don't have to have the skills yourself.

For all the phony stock photos of glass clad office buildings making your 'company' look big, here's an option for something tangible.