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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    Polymorphism does
    Of course polymorphism has everything to do with OOP. I never said otherwise. It was you who said that overloading had everything to do wich OOP, which is incorrect. You mix up the various definitions of polymorphism in the link you posted (overloading is a kind of polymorphism according to that definition, but that kind of polymorphism had nothing to do with OOP), and I only pointed that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    What do you think OOP means?
    You're asking me? Want my resume? And while we're at it, may I see yours?

    The person who tells others that they don't know enough about some subject, is surprisingly often the one who knows the least about that subject...

    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    See the above definition of polymorphism, means having "having multiple forms", NOT multiple names. The example has little or nothing to do with polymorphism.
    The example has everything to do with polymorphism. A Ferrari (in my example) is another 'form' of a car; not another name.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    As defined, may not work reliably. True, all Ferrari's are Car's, but not all Car's are Ferrari's. If drive() method written for Car, and doesn't take potential for Ferrari object, then implicit cast will occur and you will lose Ferrari functionality in drive() method and get just Car (will need to cast back to Ferrari object).
    Correct. And this is precisely the problem with your so-called overloading example 'method (Object o1, Object o2, ...N)'. Again, I only pointed that out using this example. The only one you're arguing with here is yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    Not a good OO example. Ferrari different than Car, though is car. Do you take your Ferrari to a Car mechanic?
    Why not? A ferrari is a 'form' of a car (in your speak), so it supports everything a normal car does. So if it doesn't work because of a simple 'car' problem, any Car mechanic can fix it. That's the whole point of polymorphism. The Ferrari -> Car (Or Student -> Person) example is a famous (or infamous) one. And now you're saying it's a bad example? That's a good one!

    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    That's a good thing? And when an object that doesn't have drive() is passed, what now? I can call unknown methods on unknown objects, how it that good?
    It's not good OR bad. It's different. It allows you to do either very stupid things, or very great things, depending on your knowledge and experience. And it's totally different from Java (or C++).

    Vincent

  2. #27
    As the name suggests... trickie's Avatar
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    Mr Tinkles, i think you should re-asses your 'arguments' and who's skills you are questioning.

    If u write badly designed code, you will get a bad result. Do you need to have good programming practices enforced upon you, or can you take responsibility?

  3. #28
    SitePoint Addict mr tinkles's Avatar
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    ...It was you who said that overloading had everything to do wich OOP, which is incorrect...
    If, I did, quote it back, but I wouldn't...

    Overloading is as part of OO as polymorphism is, as definition of polymorphism shows.

    ..but that kind of polymorphism had nothing to do with OOP...
    really? well what polymorphism are you referring to?

    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/P/polymorphism.html

    You're asking me? Want my resume? And while we're at it, may I see yours?
    Yes, I'm asking you...

    You have a definition of OOP on your resume?

    I have no desire to see your resume, but I'll send you mine, pm me or whatever and I'll email. Though I'm not sure my resume defines the OO implementations to a high degree.

    My definition of OO is this:

    Programming Language needs to support all of these:

    Inheritance
    Polymorphism
    Encapsulation (data hiding, though I dislike that term)

    Onward.

    The example has everything to do with polymorphism. A Ferrari (in my example) is another 'form' of a car; not another name.
    "having multiple forms" BEING named the same, sorry if that wasn't clear. This is the definition of polymorphism, not my slant, or what I think it is...

    Both defintion links provided, support this, same name different functionality.

    In your example, Ferrari is a new class inherited from Car, they not named same. Guess I can easily say you Ferrari/Car example not good polymorphic example, but inheritance and polymorphism are related, not correlated.

    The person who tells others that they don't know enough about some subject, is surprisingly often the one who knows the least about that subject...
    Psychology, interesting.

    So what do you call a person that actually does know the subject?

    Mr Tinkles, i think you should re-asses your 'arguments' and who's skills you are questioning.
    If u write badly designed code, you will get a bad result.
    Ok, let's question your skills responsibility.

    GIGO. That's, garbage in, garbage out.

    Do you need to have good programming practices enforced upon you, or can you take responsibility?
    what do you think?

    I'll take "sponsitility". Enforcing good programming practices, because the programming language doesn't, is the same as a developer saying:

    "If the user makes a mistake, the program should crash"

    What's worse, is, if programming language, allows this to happen, when I enforce good programming practices!

    [mr tinkles]
    prove me wrong, or right. learn something. I'm ready for ALL challenges. (of course conducted on a fair and balanced playing field...)
    [/mr tinkles]

    In life, there are those that do, and there are...

  4. #29
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ...It was you who said that overloading had everything to do wich OOP, which is incorrect...

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If, I did, quote it back, but I wouldn't...

    "PHP does not support function overloading, nor is it possible to undefine or redefine previously-declared functions"

    That blows out Polymorphism, also!
    I would

    Resumes and degrees aside.... (everyone (& I have neither )

    Mr Tinkles you said that PHP does not have the 3 basic requirements of OOP and is therefore not really OOP , I think only the polymorphism issue was at task and I think thats been thouroughly covered.

    So again, if you are saying that lack of private,protected vars etc & lack of abstract classes etc makes OOP a little more work in PHP then no one will argue with you.

    You are suggesting that PHP OOP is not capable of certain things because of these 'shortcomings' which I think you would need to show us if your argument is to hold any water, the flawed example you showed earlier was exactly that designed only to show how its possible to stuff-up .

    If you saying that its impossible to write bad code in Java then that would be another point for you... not holding my breath though.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Addict mr tinkles's Avatar
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    "PHP does not support function overloading, nor is it possible to undefine or redefine previously-declared functions"

    That blows out Polymorphism, also!
    Well, as pointed out earlier, PHP does support method overriding (tho, I consider functions and methods, same thing), maybe in PHP function is Static, method is object function?

    btw, the above quote does not equate to:

    ...It was you who said that overloading had everything to do wich OOP, which is incorrect...
    Regardless, there is:

    1) No polymorphism
    2) Some polymorphism
    3) Full polymorphism

    As a cat, with high feline standards, I'm not giving any programming language OO compliance without #3. In fact, I (and many others) won't give OO compliance without fully supporting:

    Inheritance
    Polymorphism
    Encapsulation (en-cats-ulation)

    What that means may be individualized, but there is/are some agreements/standards.

    Mr Tinkles you said that PHP does not have the 3 basic requirements of OOP and is therefore not really OOP , I think only the polymorphism issue was at task and I think thats been thouroughly covered.
    I will stand by the fact PHP is not fully OO compliant, though that is not a bad thing. If you (or, anyone) think PHP fully OO compliant, then I'll quote Henry Rollins:

    "Think what you want, but you are wrong."

    If you saying that its impossible to write bad code in Java then that would be another point for you... not holding my breath though.
    It will always be possible to write "bad" code, in any language. Much like it is possible to be a "bad" driver regardless of whether you drive yugo/car/ferrari, or have degree/awesome resume.

    Much like the force (star wars reference), there is no try, there is do and not do. Well maybe Mountain Dew, but he bubbles really tweak my whiskers...

    ...the flawed example you showed earlier was exactly that designed only to show how its possible to stuff-up.
    If the example is flawed, may I ask a question, oops 2 questions:

    If PHP doesn't do what is expected, why is example flawed? PHP must share some of the responsibilty, as it allows/executes.

    How come, 'flawed example' behaves unexpectedly on second level of inheritance? Not first?

    You can explain to me until blue in face, but why does PHP do what it does in "flawed example"?

    Catz rule! "So what do you call a person that actually does know the subject?"

    A cat wannabe?

  6. #31
    As the name suggests... trickie's Avatar
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    I don't like cats. They are arrogant and have no loyalty.

  7. #32
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trickie
    I don't like cats. They are arrogant and have no loyalty.
    Try saying that to mine. They'll pee on you out of loyalty to me

    Mr.Tinkles: Care to step back from the rhetoric and give us a real example of why PHP's "lack" of overriding is detrimental in the real world?
    TuitionFree a free library for the self-taught
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  8. #33
    As the name suggests... trickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anode
    Try saying that to mine. They'll pee on you out of loyalty to me

    Hah! Yeah, well my dog will try to hump you out of friendly-ness. Make love, not war!


  9. #34
    SitePoint Addict mr tinkles's Avatar
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    Mr.Tinkles: Care to step back from the rhetoric and give us a real example of why PHP's "lack" of overriding is detrimental in the real world?
    Sure, define "the real world". Or show how PHPs OO is helpful in "the real world"? prove me wrong right quick.

    but PHP doesn't lack overriding. Maybe, not do so well...

    [real world]
    Gotta use existing PHP 'system', some object usage, like shopping cart...

    see:

    http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=99270

    ...and lack of feedback

    So I choose to EXTEND the existing PHP shopping cart, you know, add salmon, milk, tuna, more tuna, lol.

    So I choose to EXTEND the existing PHP shopping cart object, and add 'discount' for existing/trusted customers...

    What do you think happens?

    In THE REAL WORLD? I'll tell...

    Doesn't work as desired.

    Me, wonder why?

    'discount' already defined in existing shopping cart PHP functionality!

    but I have to use:

    "existing PHP 'system'"
    [/real world]

    How does that work, just shopping cart? I use object, or EXTEND, but when I do, 'discount' bites my ****?

    Yea, PHP OO....

  10. #35
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    not quite with you Mr T , what shopping cart ? , you mean you grabbed an existing shopping cart class and tried to extend it and it did not work ?

    Then write your own class , its hardly PHP's fault if the class was not up to scratch, if you can do it better than be a nice PHP head , repair it and notify the creators of your improvements.

    Currently most available classes are those that peeps have created for themselves and then made available to others if they wish to use them, often they will reflect the needs of the creators rather than the masses.

    A couple of useful classes for the real world on & offline are snoopy and r&os PDF neither are perhaps brilliant examples of PHP OOP but both very functional and both very useful, I often use snoopy for simple web-fetching and parsing and extend r&os pdf for making simple PDF templates/merges.

  11. #36
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firepages
    Then write your own class , its hardly PHP's fault if the class was not up to scratch, if you can do it better than be a nice PHP head , repair it and notify the creators of your improvements.
    Ditto.

    Mr Tinkles:
    I'm not sure why you feel paralyzed that an existing class has a method named the same that you would like to name. Just replace it with your "discount" method. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill! If this is what you've been arguing about the whole time, I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
    TuitionFree a free library for the self-taught
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  12. #37
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anode
    Ditto.

    Mr Tinkles:
    I'm not sure why you feel paralyzed that an existing class has a method named the same that you would like to name. Just replace it with your "discount" method. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill! If this is what you've been arguing about the whole time, I think you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
    I have to give mr tinkles credit, you surely are stubborn. Although I have to question why you would declare an ambiguous function to an object. Before you start slandering that with "Private" and "public" were getting there with PHP5. If PHP is not up to your standards, then why are you coding in it or better yet, why are you coding in a loosely typed language?

    Most people will agree that it's learning curve is easier to get round than something like java, but the real reason is it's far more productive in my eye's; quick. Anyway, getting back to your question in hand...

    You are obviously losing the plot in many cases, yes poor coding does make any language fail in many apsects, but if you handled something like that, you would check prior for the objects existance "class_exists" and "method_exists". Hopefully with the "new namespaces" in php5 we will have a better solution to this, however you have to stick to the lanuages constructs or all else will fail.


    PHP Code:
    [font=Courier New]<?php

    class {

       function 
    a() {

          if(
    method_exists($this'test'))
               echo 
    'a::test() exists!';
           else
               echo 
    'a::test() doesn\'t exists';

       }


       function 
    test() {

          return 
    true;

       }

    }

    $b = new a();

    ?>[/font]

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Sure, define "the real world". Or show how PHPs OO is helpful in "the real world"? prove me wrong right quick.
    Are you still trying to argue that in the real world, no one is using PHP's OOP? I think it's time you had a look around in that case.

    I think the reason why you got no feedback here is not because no one has any examples but because your question is not far from "show me a website that works and uses PHP"...

    I could spend the next month finding you links to real sites that I know are using PHP's OOP. For starters check out the eZ publish class library then check out 200 + sites listed as using eZ publish. Of course none of them actually exist because PHP's OO support is un real, my name isn't Harry and I exist only as a figment of your imagination...
    Last edited by HarryF; Mar 17, 2003 at 07:32.

  14. #39
    public static void brain Gybbyl's Avatar
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    I think that everyone who has posted on the Advanced PHP Programming section of sitepoint has used OOP as a tool to some degree in at least some of their apps. I use it all the time, and yes, all of my apps work. They all work far better than scripts just like them that are using PP, and their are far easier to maintain, upgrade, and extend. But, each man to his own; that's the beauty of PHP. You can do PP, or OOP or even OOPP (Object Oriented Procedural Programming (In Theory)), and no one could stop you. If it works, great, if it doesn't, that's fine too.
    Ryan

  15. #40
    SitePoint Addict mr tinkles's Avatar
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    the thread just won't end...

    Stubborn, persistent, all in point of view...

    Did just do the 'poor man's extend' to the cart class. Meaning, just 'update' existing class...

    Although I have to question why you would declare an ambiguous function to an object. Before you start slandering that with "Private" and "public" were getting there with PHP5. If PHP is not up to your standards, then why are you coding in it or better yet, why are you coding in a loosely typed language?
    I actually wouldn' declare stuff ambiguosly (knowingly), just an example (as explained), that shows what is possible. Kinda funky example, that leads to some interesting possibilities...

    PHP actually does meet some of my standards, and I code with it because, I can? But what difference does that make? rhetorical..

    ...You are obviously losing the plot in many cases, yes poor coding does make any language fail in many apsects, but if you handled something like that, ...
    Maybe just being stubborn, but I'm still on 'plot'.

    btw, a little OO better than NO OO.

    Plot, for me, is "How good is PHP OO?" or better "what benefit is PHP OO?"

    A great thing about OO, should be the ability to reuse code/objects. If I have to write more code to handle doing this, kind of defeats purpose. Kind of like how PHP supports 'overloading'. Seems more trouble than worth. Not gaining anything, just more coding for issues...

    a simpler example, that should be relevant:

    <?
    class a
    {
    var $count;

    function a()
    {
    $this->count=10;
    echo "<p>a object count =".$this->count;
    }
    function getCount()
    {
    echo "<p>a object count =".$this->count;
    }
    }

    class b extends a
    {
    var $count;
    function b()
    {
    parent::a();
    $this->count=100;
    echo "<p>b object count=".$this->count;
    }
    }

    print "<p> create a b object\n";
    $nb = new b;
    print "<p> call count\n";
    $nb->getCount();
    ?>

    Andrew-J2000, as you allude to the private/public, instance/class scoping of variables, you may be leaving out the ability to override. This isn't an issue with strong/loose typing,btw. In the above example, the inability of PHP to recognize the scope of each objects variables/members, will not be solved by public/private keywords.

    if:

    PRIVATE var $count;

    in each class would hide scope, perhaps, but:

    PUBLIC var $count;

    will cause even more problems/issues as PHP needs to be able to encapsulate objects properly...

    Lastly, PHP OO can be described as this:

    Simple object concept/creation
    Strict inheritance over many levels. Meaning, highest level scope, always rules, may not be what one wants. Proceed at own risk. This is the same as strict overriding. This also means encapsulation is not guaranteed, nor enforced. Proceed at own risk
    No overloading.

    Is PHP OO, sure, as it has some OO capabilities. Is PHP good at OO, er, ah, no. Unless you prescribe to the:

    segway is a car because it has wheels, own power source and transposts people...

    "It would be nice to see an actual class that could be part of an actual website or PHP application"
    your question is not far from "show me a website that works and uses PHP"...
    That's not a question, statement. Statement much closer to the question:

    "Anyone have a useful PHP class?"

    Speculate all you want.

    Lack of replies, who knows?
    Last edited by mr tinkles; Mar 17, 2003 at 19:16.

  16. #41
    As the name suggests... trickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    Is PHP OO, sure, as it has some OO capabilities. Is PHP good at OO, er, ah, no.
    Are you just going on for the sake of having an argument. If you are a good software engineer you can use PHP to write good OOP. The language (in PHP4) might directly support ALL OOP techniques, but you can still do it.

    You might have to write a few more lines to do something OOP related than you would in java, but then you have to write a whole lot more typing code in java. Once you have written a re-usable class you don't have to rewrite again (if you designed it properly), so the excuse:
    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    If I have to write more code to handle doing this, kind of defeats purpose. Kind of like how PHP supports 'overloading'. Seems more trouble than worth. Not gaining anything, just more coding for issues...
    just isn't an excuse! Learn to engineer your software. If u need to have certain language specfics before you think you can write good OOP, then why not start helping with the PHP5 development?

  17. #42
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by trickie
    "Anyone have a useful PHP class?"
    Yes I do. And lots of them too...

    Maybe you should wonder how it is that you're unable to write a useful class, or even find one on the Internet. Hint: don't put the blame on others (like the PHP developers), and take a closer look at yourself.

    Vincent

  18. #43
    As the name suggests... trickie's Avatar
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    I didn't say that...


  19. #44
    SitePoint Addict mr tinkles's Avatar
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    Are you just going on for the sake of having an argument.
    No.

    If you are a good software engineer you can use PHP to write good OOP. The language (in PHP4) might directly support ALL OOP techniques, but you can still do it.
    As a software developer, I can use FORTRAN (or C, or basic) to write good OO.

    But that is not the 'plot'. Writing good OO and the OO abilities of a given language, are two different things.

    If u need to have certain language specfics before you think you can write good OOP, then why not start helping with the PHP5 development?
    How is that accomplished? I sent an email through www.php.net and never got reply. Though I'll gladly offer...

    Maybe you should wonder how it is that you're unable to write a useful class, or even find one on the Internet. Hint: don't put the blame on others (like the PHP developers), and take a closer look at yourself.
    I will put the blame where it squarely lies. The PHP implementation of OO, or objects, rests in PHP, not the coder. If PHP allows bad things, question that, not:

    why coder trying to do bad things.
    ---
    As a software developer, I WILL NOT ACCEPT:

    "If the user does something wrong/stupid/funny, then when software fails, IT IS THE USERS FAULT."

    It is the fault of the software/developer to allow this to happen, NOT the user.

    That's how I engineer my solutions...

  20. #45
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr tinkles
    How is that accomplished? I sent an email through www.php.net and never got reply. Though I'll gladly offer...
    Instructions on how to contribute to PHP development here. Looking forward to seeing you put your money where your mouth is.
    TuitionFree a free library for the self-taught
    Anode Says... Blogging For Your Pleasure

  21. #46
    No. Phil.Roberts's Avatar
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    I will put the blame where it squarely lies. The PHP implementation of OO, or objects, rests in PHP, not the coder. If PHP allows bad things, question that, not:

    why coder trying to do bad things.
    ---
    As a software developer, I WILL NOT ACCEPT:

    "If the user does something wrong/stupid/funny, then when software fails, IT IS THE USERS FAULT."

    It is the fault of the software/developer to allow this to happen, NOT the user.

    Soooo, if I read this correctly, you think it should be the job of the LANGUAGE to hold your hand, point out your mistakes, show you the correct coding structures, and generally do all of the work for you?

    You may as well say "If I write broken code becuase I don't know how to program in PHP properly then its PHP's fault when it doesn't work." Either way, you're just seeking ways to absolve your own ineptitude.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    So what you're saying is projects like a UML editor that generates PHP, a Javadoc style documentation generator for PHP and a PHP unit testing framework, just for example, have all got it completely wrong? I see...

  23. #48
    SitePoint Addict mr tinkles's Avatar
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    Looking forward to seeing you put your money where your mouth is.
    In the front of my face?

    wait... mouth still there.

    where is your money?

  24. #49
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    Thumbs down How annoying

    This thread must have lots of links to it because it comes up quite a lot when googling for REAL information about OO in PHP4, instead you get Mr. Tiddles making hard and fast rules about how programming languages should work. Sadly it is typical of a attitude amongst a minority of coders, put a sock in it if you can't come up with anything practical.


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