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  1. #51
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guysmy
    I'm not sure why the majority of you feel compelled to rip on the new Macromedia site design and their products in general.
    see post number 9....

    here's a good way to tell if you're a Flash hater. When you make comments like, "so you should disregard all design standards." What the heck does that even mean? It means that is such an absurd comment only a Flash hater would use it.

    here's a great example of a site using Flash very well www.nikegolf.com .No, go spend some time at that site. The site works- period. You may not like ALL aspects of the site. But the site works and works well.
    course Nike must be fools for using Flash.
    http://www.harley-davidson.com/ fools for using Flash
    http://www.bmwusa.com/ BMW - fools for using Flash
    http://uk.fujitsu.com/ Fujitsu - fools for using Flash
    http://www.coke.com/flashIndex1.html Coke - fools for using Flash

    do I have to go on.

    sure, they're are going to be purest that say that it's not 100% accessable. No what, you're right, then don't use it if that is your primary goal. But many BILLION dollar corporations use it.

    I rest me case.
    Last edited by Golgotha; Mar 6, 2003 at 22:58.

  2. #52
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    will you lay off with the "flash hater" tirade...it's getting rather tiring.
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  3. #53
    + platinum's Avatar
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    I think flash is great...


    ... when it's used what it's meant for And I think generating entire interfaces for the web with it is awful, it's great to supply an "interactive animation" of a new product, or show a nice animated header outlining your business... and for internet cartoons and games - flash is brilliant... Just don't force people to use it, I bet if you had a "Flash Site" and a "HTML Site" the majority of people would click the HTML site

  4. #54
    1-800-JMULDER JMulder's Avatar
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    I have never understood what purpose flash animations add to a site like Macromedia. Sure, they are promoting their product with it but who gives a damn? In my opinion any user visiting the Macromedia website is because they are looking for something .. wait, did I hear someone say information?

    I cannot believe Flash animations on a Macromedia website would drag a visitor into buying their software. A great way to show of what your product is capable of is simply by linking to example sites or example animations. That way the user can CHOOSE wether he wants to take the time to load these animations or not.

    I am really having problems finding how animations can contribute to a site like Macromedia .. oh well, must be me.
    Jeroen Mulder

    w: www.jeroenmulder.com

  5. #55
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geof Harries
    If the site crashed Chimera, I would humbly suggest you make sure the browser has the latest version of the Flash player. Before I upgraded to the most current player, I also experienced quite a few bombs.
    I suspected something similar was at play. As far as I know, there is a way to sniff for Flash version; this tells me Macromedia didn't do enough testing or didn't have the forethought to display an upgrade box(they had ample time; it crashed after I had been on the site a minute or two.) While this level of forethought can't be expected of any old web author, as the vendor of the technology, they should have thought of all possibilities and strived to make the best impression possible on everyone.

    In any case, I stand by my point that an information driven environment is no place to deploy Flash.
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  6. #56
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    This reminds me of an argument in teh marketing/promotion area. A user is still standing by the fact that this guy is a "guru", despite the fact that he has no presence online, half his customers are cons and there is no proof he's ever done anything but overcharge other marketing people for seminars.

    When questioned, I'm told I'm too "closed minded". When challenged he says "so what, I like him, and look he's rich".

    For me, those things don't wash. If I ask questions, I think that's pretty open-minded. If someone else says "don't matter what you think, they did great" - to me that's closed minded (but maybe I'm wrong).

    At the end of the day, you have like 25 MM USERS here saying they don't like the site, and the rest calling those guys flash haters.

    Sorry, again that doesnt' wash. I use Flash on a regular basis, and will continue to do so. I even believe there are good "all flash" sites, but you have to be very aware of the choice you are making when you do that.

    For me, I see no compelling reason for MM to have used an all flash site, except to showcase it's product and as others, and I, have said, I don't think it's a very good showcase.

    At the end of they day it'll come down to opinion, and things like "flash hater" are just as useful to a conversation as dismissing a Christian for being a "fundamentalist conservative".
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  7. #57
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    I would be curious to see the results of the survery MM has on their site:
    http://www.infopoll.net/live/surveys/s20463.htm

    For me the MM site worked fine. No bugs, no problems, the overall look worked for me. It did what I would beleive it was set out to do.

    However, I have the lastest and greatest player installed and haven't been on a machine that doen't have flash. I really would like to see how it operates in a browser without flash.

    And if it is as messed up as it sounds, well then they did a piss poor job of testing. As I said before the site needs to exhance the user's experience. Maybe the designers at MM over looked this very simple principal.

    Flash or no Flash -- the decision needs to be made on experience not preference.

    and so it goes ...
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  8. #58
    SitePoint Wizard LeoWebDesign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geof Harries
    Well it looks like they have finally done it. Macromedia has launched their new site http://www.macromedia.com/ with some of the forums, Exchange, and a bunch of other sections all in Flash. Very cool. Nothing like putting your money where your mouth is!

    geof

    Let me just start by saying that I use and love Macromedia products. These opinions come form a "one man shop" type of view. I have done some Flash intros etc. in the past, but they ultimately end being removed from a site when they get "old".

    I have not "pushed" Flash on my design clients for these reasons. A small company is generally more interested in quickly getting their message out and selling their product, they don't "need" Flash for that. The small business clients generally don't want to pay the additional development fees associated with Flash. I can't assure them of search engine placement. Heck, I'm still trying to figure out how to do that on the HTML sites! The learning curve is steep and takes much time to continue, taking away from learning other more productive aspects of web development. It's hard to recommend it when the first thing I do when I hit a site with a Flash intro is click Skip Intro. If I have any hiccups with loading a full Flash interface or it takes to long then I am gone.

    That doesn't mean I won't use it in the future. It's just not a matter of Flash OR HTML. I do think there are some great applications out there. Especially some of the hotel booking apps. and some of Disney's sites. Those are great for the big budget large corps, but often ill suited for the little guys.

  9. #59
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    To everyone,

    Please don't categorize me as being a proponent of the term "Flash Hater". While I do believe that there are people out there who are discounting Flash before they even know what it can do when used properly, I agree with many of your opinions. I just get my back up when folks relegate Flash to animated intros (ugh), header graphics, spinning logos or any other lame use.

    That was the OLD Flash. I am speaking of the NEW Flash. And I am guilty of the pointless, animated intro....but give me a break it was the summer of 1999 the tail end of the dot-com boom days when they were the norm.

    Anyways, JMulder wrote:

    "I cannot believe Flash animations on a Macromedia website would drag a visitor into buying their software. A great way to show of what your product is capable of is simply by linking to example sites or example animations."

    Macromedia did not use animations on their site, well except in some places, but not as their main selling point. They wanted to display the RIA concept (rich internet application) in a multitude of sections, and for several functions. The company has done this, and done it well. They are attempting to demonstrate how Flash Remoting, J2EE (and JMS & Java) and XML can work together as a package in a real world environment. As programmers, I would bet that most of you think that's pretty darned cool. I sure do!

    In regards to seeing how the macromedia.com worked on a browser without Flash, I had visited the site in Mac OS 9 with Netscape 4.7, no Flash player installed. I got the HTML website initially, but in the header it read:

    "You may not have everything you need to view certain sections of macromedia.com. Please see our site requirements."

    I then clicked on the link and was taken to a Flash player download page. That's pretty straightforward to me. And far less than a "poor job of testing".

    I don't directly sell Flash to my clients, or to any clients I have held in the past. If they ask for it, then I will deliver. There have been many occasions though we throw in a "free" animation just to spice things up, and there's never been one client who didn't think that was cool (maybe it was the free part). But I have been part of several projects where we used Flash Remoting, CFMX and XML to deliver a RIA, and the clients were completely overjoyed with the results. Moreso than they ever could have been with a heavy duty, plain vanilla HTML/Javascript app.

    geof

  10. #60
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geof Harries

    In regards to seeing how the macromedia.com worked on a browser without Flash, I had visited the site in Mac OS 9 with Netscape 4.7, no Flash player installed. I got the HTML website initially, but in the header it read:

    "You may not have everything you need to view certain sections of macromedia.com. Please see our site requirements."

    I then clicked on the link and was taken to a Flash player download page. That's pretty straightforward to me. And far less than a "poor job of testing".
    Geof --

    Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.

    So now what is wrong with that? MM took in consideration users w/o flash and displayed a different version -- while telling the user they might not get the full functionality.
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  11. #61
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    I use Flash on a regular basis, and will continue to do so. I even believe there are good "all flash" sites, but you have to be very aware of the choice you are making when you do that.
    this is what I and many have said all along...

    it was you who implied that the use of Flash is a "disregard to all design standards."

    it goes back to why I originally just told Sketch I thought he was wrong and left it alone. Didn't want to go down this path- because it always ends with right where we started, some like Flash, some don't. I can show you good Flash and I can show you bad Flash, I can show you bad non-Flash sites and good non-Flash sites.

    one last thing...
    geoff has it correct- the days of the annoying intros we all skip and the other eyecandy Flash days are behind us and what we are moving towards is a RIA style. Where Flash is integrated with databases and uses XML, php, and the like.
    Last edited by Golgotha; Mar 7, 2003 at 10:32.

  12. #62
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    I just discovered this in Macromedia's DevNet section; a look at new forms, enchanced by Flash:

    http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mmw...info_arch.html

    I am super stoked on the Accordian Forms, but most of all I like the notion of the Navigation Tray and the Content Browser, the latter which allows you to move through their library of articles and downloads without having to reload a page. Now that's pretty cool.

    It's also close to what we did for a group of radiologists who were looking to bring their scheduling calendar online. Before we got involved, the office administrator spent up to 2 days a month scheduling the group of 18 radiologists in 6 hospitals across 4 cities, using a combo of paper (gasp!) and an ancient DOS program. If a doctor wanted to view their schedule, they were faxed a copy when it was done. Revisions, made with a pencil eraser and a clipboard, were a mid-80's nightmare.

    We took their current system, put all the info into a SQL Server database, and wrote a CFMX, XML and Flash Remoting application that brought that 2 day period per month, to just under 2 HOURS per month. Revisions are quick and easy to make. Rules regarding what doctors could work where (due to certifications and skills), when (holidays and contract status) and with who (due to egos!), are written into the app. The RIA is smart enough to know who could work on a specific day, and where, and presents those options as part of a selection for the office admin to choose. Conflicts are shown via a small red flag, and can be overwritten if need be. Each doctor is given access to the app via a secure login, and only sees what the admin wants them to see.

    The RIA has over 600 queries on one page (hefty but required), and does not require reloads as it updates, because its connection to the database is constant. That's the beauty of Flash Remoting; a smooth integration between the client and the server that appears to be (and is) seamless. Bonus? The interface comes in at just under 40 KB.

    Tell me again that Flash is played out

    geof

  13. #63
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Geof,

    That does sound sweet. But let me just throw outsome thoughts.

    Your app is in a controlled environment. Every PC has Flash installed as a basic rollout plugin. Yeah I know 92% of normal users have it but that's not 100% and that's a sidepoint.

    Your app is on an intranet with identical browsers, with identical plugins over an identical network with close to identical workstation specs.

    Your app is on an internet that is not being deep-crawled by Google and other search engines, therefore eliminating the need for deep-linking.

    My point? I concur that Flash is useful in some situations, in highly-controlled environments. In the wild outlands called the internet? I'm not so sure...

    Aaron
    Aaron Brazell
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  14. #64
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Golgotha,

    You seem to really be riding that "design standards" remark, but just in case you missed it, here's the actual quote:

    Much like anything, so you should disregard all design standards.
    Which was in response to:

    some people like,
    some people don't,
    some people view it,
    some people won't
    Which is truly a "screw it all" attitude (at least that's how read it): "who cares if people like it or not, doesn't make a difference".

    My statement wasn't that they disregard all design standards, but to say "ah well" is to allow people to disregard all design standards.

    Again, I didn't say MM was going against standards, but to have a blatant disregard for everything indicates that people may as well do so.
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  15. #65
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    yep, I work with Flash almost on a daily basis. Most of the stuff I do is not for the web though.

    I build kiosk systems for retail stores. We incorporate Flash with ASP and a SQL server backend.

    I have friends that work at IBM that use FLash with a web-sphere and XML to build interactive displays for museums.

    This is Flash's future, and Flash is in its infancy.

  16. #66
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    And, Geof, you can do the same things in .NET and Java (including not needing to refresh, and maintaining state).

    Also, much of what you mention isn't just Flash, but based on server technology which could just as easily be PHP, ASP, Perl, etc

    Here, we apply design principles to backed development. So, our windows apps are 30-50K in size (gasp). We can drop a new frontend on in hours, not weeks, and can take advantage of new standards that may only work in one or two browsers, thanks to .NET's built in browser controls.

    So, if XForms are only available in Netscape one day, well we can still use them with almost no additional coding.

    Personally, I think all the emerging and maturing technologies are great, and if Flash can do all that then wonderful.

    I'd just hate to see people tied to one technology one way or the other. If you need to choose one technology for life, just to use your application, I've think your developer needs a kick

    J
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  17. #67
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Flash is actually great for kiosk applications, as the API's it exposes allow for full-frame and data control. I'd forgotten about my experiences with Flash in that area, it was truly a joy, especially as compared to other offerings at the time

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  18. #68
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    Ah man I am trying to work here, but I keep getting responses to this thread and there's nothing I can do to avoid viewing them

    I have never worked with .NET, but I do know that it's quite powerful, as is the J2EE architecture. I am primarily a graphic designer, and do a bit of backend CF & PHP (junior in JSP), so my role with these apps has been mostly for the interface part. But I do know a good thing when I see it, and Flash Remoting was a terrific go-between for many projects. We will continue to use it in the future, because it's getting better all the time. It is a viable, cost-effective technology.

    We could have built the backend in PHP, ASP or otherwise, yes, but the speed and support for CF Components (CFC's) was just too sweet to resist.

    I am not tied to one technology, nor are the guys I work with. Just like any good developer, including many of you here, we use the best technology for the job, not to mention the one we feel most comfortable with.

    Flash rules

    geof
    Last edited by Geof Harries; Mar 7, 2003 at 11:56.

  19. #69
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    jeremy, I am having a hard time making sense of a lot of what you are saying which is frustrating because you are usually such a level headed thinker.

    I never said anything that would imply a "screw it all" attitude.

    my statement of:
    some people like,
    some people don't,
    some people view it,
    some people won't


    is simply true.

    I get tired of people making blanket statements about Flash that are simply false.
    things like:
    it's time has passed.
    it dosen't load quickly.
    it's all just eye-candy.
    it's only around because there is nothing better.

    I realize that Flash has some short comings. I know what they are. Doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.

  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Geof,

    I hope I didn't sound like I was putting your choice down I haven't used Flash in that capacity, so I was just explaining what we did, so that you knew it wasn't a "flash only" feature

    Good on you though, sounds like you guys are doing some exciting stuff

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  21. #71
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Golgotha, thanks for the compliment, I'll take it for what it's worth

    "it's time has passed.
    it dosen't load quickly.
    it's all just eye-candy.
    it's only around because there is nothing better."

    The ones I said were the second and fourth one. The second one was true, it took more than a minute to load on my T1 connection. The 4th was actually said within the wider context of what's available:

    ie: The reason Flash is being used for everything it's being used for is because there's nothing better around to fill it's shoes.

    It's much like PHP in that way. Just 1 year ago, there wasn't much to compare with PHP. ASP was okay, CFM was middle of the road, and JSP was just too darn slow. Now, though, with .NET and the new versions of CFM and JSP, the playing field has level'd to such an extent, that none of the above have any true "negatives".

    I can see that happening to Flash, where there is a commoditization of some of the areas where it dominates and, for the user, that will only be a good thing

    So, I'm far from a "flash hater", but my exprience on the MM site was far from pleasant. In fact, I won't be going back unless I absolutely need to.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  22. #72
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    I am going to try and let this thread die down now, but Jeremy you really need to go back and rethink some of your statements.

    I'd just hate to see people tied to one technology one way or the other. If you need to choose one technology for life, just to use your application, I've think your developer needs a kick

    does this have anything to do with Flash or this thread? We have just got done telling you how we are using Flash WITH ASP, PHP, CF, web-sphere, XML, SQL and then you make a comment like that.

    then you state this again:

    The reason Flash is being used for everything it's being used for is because there's nothing better around to fill it's shoes.


    what the heck does that mean? the only reason we have cars is because there is nothing better

    Jeremy, this is so frustrating to hear this from you. I have listened to you for a couple years now and this just doesn't sound like you.

  23. #73
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Maybe I'm having a bad day I'll just drop it
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  24. #74
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    you're still number 1 Advisor in my book!
    Slaps Jeremy on the back.....

    got another one with the "I Love Flash" paper stuck to his back.

  25. #75
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Golgotha, I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone has a problem with Flash in and of itself, but with misguided applications of it. This can come on the form of wrong tool at the wrong time(using Flash for an information-driven website) or in the form of bad implementation(usability problems.)

    Flash is great when you need something truly interactive; something where immediate feedback is necessary for example, or you need to establish an athmosphere beyond what is available with HTML(band or movie sites, for example.) As far as a publishing and communication medium, using Flash is trying to stick a square peg in a round hole.
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