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  1. #26
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    they've missed the boat.


    now that's funny...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    You missed my point, as you missed most people's points. That's one user. The installed base is actually 92%, which doesn't take into account users 2-3.

    Ah yes, the cross section of the web developer community being the gauge for the world at large. Seems everyone's missing the point.
    No, I'm not missing the point. My point is that Flash has it's benefits when used properly. A designer still needs to give the user the options and the designer needs to be one step ahead of the user -- realizing they don't have flash and display the html version.

    Should it be used on everysite? No. Should you build an entire site out of Flash? Depends on the site and the user base.

    I still don't understand why Macromedia would develop a product and then not use that on their own site. That would be assanine. That would be like a photographer putting up a website and not showing a gallary because people might have to wait for an image to load.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.

    "I think that says it all..."

    Ah yes, the cross section of the web developer community being the gauge for the world at large. Seems everyone's missing the point.
    Exactly. We are in the business, we HAVE to have flash installed, just like most have Moz, IE, Opera, Lynx etc etc to check sites in. The average user would be more than happy with IE alone.

  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Flash has it's benefits when used properly. I agree. The designer needs to give the user the option. I agree (MM didn't. I need to go through 3 clicks, but if I ever click on the MM logo, I'm taken back to the Flash version :|).

    You don't see the point in a company not making their entire site out of their software? Kinda like AutoCAD then? You can view those files on the web using a plugin, and you can download the plugin free, and you can code entire 3D websites in CAD... So, why shouldn't they make their entire site out of it?

    I mean, their users are just as likely to be CAD users as MM's users are to be web developers.
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  5. #30
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    as I said earlier, they're Flash haters, let them go. No matter how ill there arguments are, they will still make them.

  6. #31
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    You don't see the point in a company not making their entire site out of their software? Kinda like AutoCAD then? You can view those files on the web using a plugin, and you can download the plugin free, and you can code entire 3D websites in CAD... So, why shouldn't they make their entire site out of it?

    I mean, their users are just as likely to be CAD users as MM's users are to be web developers.
    Strongest argument I've heard yet. Very good point. The couter argumment would be that most people have Flash installed and while, that may be true, one of the best pieces of advices I ever heard hold true...never assume ANYTHING. We all know what assuming does.

    Aaron
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  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    As I said earlier, they are Flash lovers, let them go. No matter how ill their arguments are, they will still make them.



    At the end of the day, who's more closed minded, the one asking questions, or the one who's made up his mind?

    You guys refuse to see any criticism in the MM site because you life Flash.
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  8. #33
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    I know and understand the strenghts and weaknesses of Flash....
    and DHTML
    and ASP
    and realplayer
    and quicktime
    and mp3's
    and SUV's
    and my HDTV

  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Ahh, quicktime, you could do sites in that quite easily as well (even more easily than CAD). Haven't seen any all quicktime sites yet either, and they come with a preloader automatically...
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    You don't see the point in a company not making their entire site out of their software? Kinda like AutoCAD then? You can view those files on the web using a plugin, and you can download the plugin free, and you can code entire 3D websites in CAD... So, why shouldn't they make their entire site out of it?

    I mean, their users are just as likely to be CAD users as MM's users are to be web developers.

    Ok -- I think you might be stretching there But if CAD served to benefit my online experience and it was accepted by 92% of the user base then yes, I don't see why they wouldn't.

    Like I said before -- the site is there to market the product. And what better way to market a product than to show off it's potential.

    I am curious though. Do you have flash installed? I am assuming so because it sounds you like you saw the site then looked for how to switch to the HTML version. I'd like to know if MM shows the HTML version for a user that doesn't have flash.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    As I said earlier, they are Flash lovers, let them go. No matter how ill their arguments are, they will still make them.



    At the end of the day, who's more closed minded, the one asking questions, or the one who's made up his mind?

    You guys refuse to see any criticism in the MM site because you life Flash.

    My mind is far from made up. I use the best tool for the situation.

    It's disscussions like this that make for better user experiences. And that is really what its all about.
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  12. #37
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenplake
    User 1:
    Doesn't have flash installed. Is told to go to macromedia.com to get Flash. Can't.


    Is that true for the current site and was it for the last one? I dont have a machine without flash installed so cant test. Dont the direct/url/to/flash_players/download links work, or is that just for the homepage?
    Has MM finally released a Flash player for Konqueror? I'd think so as Safari is based on Konqueror, but as of right now the Linux system behind me doesn't have a Flash player.

  13. #38
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    So Vinny, what happens when you visit macromedia.com on that non-flash system? I'll try Lynx when I get home just to see the accessibility of it all
    Aaron Brazell
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by smallFarm
    it was accepted by 92% of the user base then yes, I don't see why they wouldn't.
    One point I would like to make after seeing this figure splashed everywhere is that this figure shouldnt be taken as it is. It means 92% of users have it installed, not all of those want it installed. Flash Player is bundled with so many things nowadays the less than savvy user is likely to have it without knowing what it is. Autodesks plugin certainly is not distributed like that. Im not saying bundling FP is wrong, just making a point in context.

    So while they may see Flash content, given the choice, then maybe they wouldnt want to.

    That said I am not a Flash hater, I use it sparingly sometimes and love the games you can produce with it. Usability is an issue for me though. I use keyboard shortcuts religiously and it annoys me when I have to use the mouse momentarily in full typing flow.

    These threads can sometime seem quite heated, but it will benefit so many people from the facts and theories it brings up.

    Dan

  15. #40
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenplake
    These threads can sometime seem quite heated, but it will benefit so many people from the facts and theories it brings up.

    True To Point !
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  16. #41
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch
    So Vinny, what happens when you visit macromedia.com on that non-flash system? I'll try Lynx when I get home just to see the accessibility of it all
    sketch, i was way ahead of you in the lynx department
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  17. #42
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redux
    sketch, i was way ahead of you in the lynx department
    ok, ok. Down, boy! Down!
    Aaron Brazell
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  18. #43
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgotha
    as I said earlier, they're Flash haters, let them go. No matter how ill there arguments are, they will still make them.
    new from brilliant industries...the la la la i'm not listening musical headphones...

    seriously though, that is probably the wrong attitude to have in a discussion thread. most of us haters are not opposed to flash as such...but my main gripe is taking away the choice from the user, and in that respect i liken it to all other usability issues such as disabling right click on webpages, making a site full-screen with javascript, and other such horrors.
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  19. #44
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    Smallfarm had it right when he stated that Macromedia went this new Flash route based strictly on marketing. Straight up from their DevNet section:

    "As part of the rebuild project, we've become our own most demanding customer. Because we're rebuilding a whole suite of integrated enterprise applications using Macromedia products, we're pushing our products further than ever before...We think that our new website beta—its architecture, user interface, and applications—is a new experience for macromedia.com and a true example of what you can do with Macromedia products."

    Sketch, Macromedia is pushing their Flash products as a web development tool because, guess what?, it can do a great job in the right hands. Just as Java can be abused and ridiculed for being slow and cumbersome. For those in the know, when Java and Flash are built via best practices, you get a cross-platform, quick-loading, web-based tool that schools any old-world application environment. Progess can be a real pain in the ****, especially for those who are afraid to cast aside traditional notions about Flash, and really see it's power and flexibility.

    Just as the web itself had to stumble through an awkward growth stage (think dot com boom, and then bomb), Flash is now also maturing and reinstating itself in the industry. Don't let yourself fall into the trap that a few bad apples ruin the bushel. IMHO, Macromedia has done a commendable job promoting usability, speed and as said, best practices, with Flash. Their website has a ton of info for doing just so.

    Hmmm, you know to install Editize on a machine its a 1-time 160KB download. That's a fairly good chug for a 56K modem. Macromedia's hompage takes my box (OS X, Chimera 0.6, ADSL) less than 6 seconds to load. I head over to the JRun Exchange and it takes 7 seconds. Once that .swf is stored in my browser's cache, that load time goes down even further.

    geof

  20. #45
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    you don't see this....move on.

  21. #46
    runat="server" Golgotha's Avatar
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    new from brilliant industries...the la la la i'm not listening musical headphones...


    Ill take two...need some for my wife too

    my point is, I know the arguments of Flash's strengths and weaknesses. Some have merit, some don't.

    some people like,
    some people don't,
    some people view it,
    some people won't

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Much like anything, so you should disregard all design standards. While I agree with Geoff in principle, I still, personally, believe that the site isn't usable, isn't fast and isn't firendly (and, no, I dont' think Editize is either ).

    J
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  23. #48
    Not a post-script error?!! guysmy's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why the majority of you feel compelled to rip on the new Macromedia site design and their products in general. I find the site easy to use, and it also manages to look great.

  24. #49
    Sidewalking anode's Avatar
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    Bleh. It took forever to load(on cable), links didn't work right and it crashed Chimera. I like (some applications of) Flash, but that's not it. They should hire the people that did that hotel reservation system instead of doing it in house, because as of now, it's a terrible showcase IMHO.
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  25. #50
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    Anode,

    If the site crashed Chimera, I would humbly suggest you make sure the browser has the latest version of the Flash player. Before I upgraded to the most current player, I also experienced quite a few bombs.

    Here's what Chimera's release notes officially read:

    "There is a known issue with Camino and Macromedia Shockwave Flash 6.0r47, which can cause crashes. To avoid this, download and install Macromedia Flash Player 6 Beta. (which installs version 6.0r60)."

    Oh wait a second, I just noticed Camino (Chimera 0.7) got released. Cool! Go and get it if you wish:

    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/camino/

    geof


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