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  1. #26
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    Well it seems it was time to let off a bit of steam as this topic has been done to death so many times before and with the same results.

    Since the beginning of time I have turned off certain features in the browser when the modem capacity has been exceeded with fancy web sites. Upgrade the modem and not long after they find something else fancy. Same again now with broadband and it makes you wonder what they can do when glass is finally connected to the home. Since the rich kids have wrestled control of the web development standards it may even get worse because the spoilt brats can do what they like to make money.

    Mr felgall you seem to dislike Google and their so called experts (I tend to agree) but you have to understand they are required to get the job done no matter what. They can get away with it because of the allowance to sloppy standards that are still hanging around in web browsers.

    One thing that irks me is the quality of the replies to some of the requests that pass through here (and other forums). The request I can understand as they are new and learning the best they can but some off the replies are atrocious. So Mr felgall maybe you could influence some of your fellows experts to lift the game a little by explaining there is such a thing as learning best practices. Newbies of any substance will appreciate the feedback especially if reinforced with examples.

    Have a good day all.....

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Yes they appear to be experts at all sorts of server side languages - but they have next to know knowledge of JavaScript which is why most of Google's pages work better (or are at least less broken) with JavaScript turned off.

    If those particular Drupal modules were created by amateurs then avoid using them and stick with the ones written by professionals Obviously between the thousands of individual developers those without any real web developer knowledge have ruined those particular modules.
    The views and panels modules are two of the most powerful and popular modules within the Drupal ecosystem.
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

  3. #28
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    The views and panels modules are two of the most powerful and popular modules within the Drupal ecosystem.
    That probably explains why so many amateurs have stuffed about with them and broken them for when JavaScript is not available.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  4. #29
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    By making that statement you are just about saying anyone that uses Drupal is an amateur.

    Though maybe I need to make things a little more clear. Both of those modules rely heavily on JavaScript for data entry forms within the admin area. Nothing comes to mind on the front-end that relies heavily on JavaScript. It is merely the forms associated with those modules. Generally the only people who need to modify views and panels will be site administrators, not the entire general population. it would be nearly be impossible to manage all the options exposed by forms associated with those modules without using JavaScript to update things without constantly reloading the page. JavaScript isn't applied in a lack luster way but used to significantly increase the user experience when building views and panels.

    Off Topic:


    I don't know why I'm making an argument for Drupal. Most days I f**kin hate Drupal…
    The only code I hate more than my own is everyone else's.

  5. #30
    padawan silver trophybronze trophy markbrown4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    The internet is a convenience not a necessity.
    Disagree http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...a-human-right/

  6. #31
    Gre aus'm Pott gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    The internet is a convenience not a necessity
    Also disagree: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10461048

    Finland ... Mmm ... Reindeer and broadband.

  7. #32
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    Off Topic:

    Be careful with the politics guys.

  8. #33
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz
    People can say all they want about this being "bad development" but fact of the matter is people making these decisions wok for some of the largest companies around.
    Those of us who bother with accessibility have known since forever that some of the *worst* code comes from the Big Players.

    How you earn your money aside, the assumption that code is good or best practices because "big players" and "large companies" are using it is a bad assumption. The only thing you can truthfully say about it is that their code and their models and their practices are working just well enough for them to manage to earn some amount of money.

    That is not, and has never been, a benchmark for things like Good Code or Best Practices. I honestly don't care if it's good enough for your day job: the kinds of garbage I'm asked to copy and paste at my work is pretty bad, too. Doesn't make it Best Practice.

    "Amazon is huge, has a bazillion customers, and sells lots of stuff every minute of every day! Therefore, <i role="checkbox"></i> and similar is Good Code and Best Practice".

    I honestly don't know anyone (any developer) who would actually believe that statement. Instead, it would be
    "Amazon is huge, has a bazillion customers, and sells lots of stuff every minute of every day! Therefore, <i role="checkbox"></i> is managing to fundge its way into working for a certain (determined by the company) critical percentage of potential customers." (at the time Derek Featherstone was testing Amazon, this fake checkbox was part of an extended order form. So if the user hadn't finished a purchase, they're still considered a potential customer here).

    That's all it means. It half works, or three-quarters works, or occasional blackouts and screwups or any other problems they have as a business are relegated to random little blogs here and there who get little publicity even when it's outright theft (the link is not regarding code, but simply a particular business practice of a Large, Successful Company Who Manages To Earn Plenty Despite Doing Things Like This).

    The "it works or we'd hear it from customers" argument has little meaning: customers are always complaining all the time about everything (legitimately or not), even holding to Will Hill's 90-9-1 user participation principle, and while companies at times will make changes in response to significant (enough) complaints or money loss, this is not even the driving force for change within any large company, because of the costs involved in changing anything. Instead it's usually marketing (including user studies, focus groups, introducing new or modified products), law suits, and bad publicity. Not in that order.

  9. #34
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz
    Alright, well I'm going to tell you to go look-up the drupal modules views and panels. You think it is so easy than make those modules function w/o JavaScript turned on.
    Am I remiss in thinking views and panels are for the admin side of Drupal? As opposed to visitors?

  10. #35
    Gre aus'm Pott gold trophysilver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stomme poes View Post
    Am I remiss in thinking views and panels are for the admin side of Drupal? As opposed to visitors?
    Nope. Or, at least, that is what I understood oddz to have meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Both of those modules rely heavily on JavaScript for data entry forms within the admin area.
    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Generally the only people who need to modify views and panels will be site administrators, not the entire general population.

  11. #36
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Well I can certainly see Javascript being... pretty much necessary for something like those, on the admin end-- after all, it sounds like an application.

    Applications aren't documents, they need behaviour to work, and with just HTML/CSS alone the best you can get is the HTML+HTTP going on with forms, and no I can't imagine something like Drupal's Admin interface being done like that. I would say it needs Javascript, and probably a lot of it.

  12. #37
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oddz View Post
    Though maybe I need to make things a little more clear. Both of those modules rely heavily on JavaScript for data entry forms within the admin area. Nothing comes to mind on the front-end that relies heavily on JavaScript.
    Something on the back end that is only going to be used by the person who put it there is a completely different matter from public web pages. The person installing such a script knows if they have JavaScript available or not and can make sure it is turned on for those pages even if they have it off for the rest of the web. My prior comments were made on the assumption that the pages were accessible to anyone since the discussion is obviously about public web pages.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy cydewaze's Avatar
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    I use the NoScript plugin for Firefox at work. Why? Because I need to test websites to make sure they work properly when JavaScript is disabled. At home, JS is enabled.
    <cfset myblog = "http://cydewaze.org/">

  14. #39
    Foozle Reducer ServerStorm's Avatar
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    I have created a plugin that using a quick key I can turn JavaScript on and off. Most times I don't use JavaScript. I this so nice not getting all the ads, popups, and modal window nonsense. I selectively turn it on in a design that works nicely using Ajax or enables functionality I want to use. I do get caught some times expecting functionality but forgetting to enable JavaScript.

    Many sites are just pigs on CPU so on my super smarty pants phone I often disable it.

    It is great to turn off during streaming video as you bypass most of the annoying marketing thrown at you.
    ictus==""

  15. #40
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
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    Yup, there are lots of good reasons to turn it off periodically. But like you, I do sometimes forget that it is off and get confused! There are convenient dev tool buttons for various browsers for turning it on and off without having to dig into the bowels of the settings.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbrown4 View Post
    It really depends on the app/site. A lot of web apps I build don't make sense without the presence of js so I don't worry about it. It's a regular site when there's no need for js to function there's.. no need for js.
    This is where I stand. I've made some very javascript heavy web apps in the past, and frankly I do nothing to cater for people who don't enable javascript in their browser on those sites.

    If I'm working on some e-commerce site though, it makes sense to make the site as accessible to everyone. I think context is important.

  17. #42
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ServerStorm View Post
    I have created a plugin that using a quick key I can turn JavaScript on and off.
    Why not just swap to using Opera - you can then simply attach a JavaScript on/off checkbox in the status bar of the browser.
    Stephen J Chapman

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    <input name="html5" type="text" required pattern="^$">

  18. #43
    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Why not just swap to using Opera - you can then simply attach a JavaScript on/off checkbox in the status bar of the browser.
    There's a simple little ad-on for Chrome that does the same thing. Very handy.

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy PicnicTutorials's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    There's a simple little ad-on for Chrome that does the same thing. Very handy.
    And FX

  20. #45
    Web development Company chrisranjana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvanGR View Post
    When designing a website with javascript, what is the need to test the website with javascript turned off? I've read this a few times, that a website should work when javascript is not available on the browser (for some reason). Who does this, on what percentage, and why?

    I understand there are some security concerns, and tools like NoScript disable scripting... but you do expect dynamic sites to break if you cripple the browser, it's normal. Why would a javascript programmer worry about these corner cases?

    Thank you

    Sometimes people turn off javascript for security purposes. At the least your application should warn the user that if javascripts are NOT turned on, they will NOT be able to access the full features of a particular website.
    Chris, Programmer/Developer, Chrisranjana.com
    Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India.
    Php Developers

  21. #46
    Programming Since 1978 silver trophybronze trophy felgall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    There's a simple little ad-on for Chrome that does the same thing. Very handy.
    Quote Originally Posted by EricWatson View Post
    And FX
    Opera has it built in though so that you don't need to add anything.
    Stephen J Chapman

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  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard bronze trophy PicnicTutorials's Avatar
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    I just added the js off plugin to FX. Now I have 3 ways to turn off js. I only turn js off to test though. I am very happy with the way I have recently found to gracefully degrade my sites when js is off.

    <script type="text/javascript">
    document.documentElement.className = 'js';
    </script>

    That little line is independent of libraries. Put it in the head. Adds the class of js to the html. This is the only solution there is to 100% completely remove FOUC. Other than doc.write that is. There are jquery ways. But if you place your scripts at the bottom your FOUC gets pretty bad.

  23. #48
    om nom nom nom Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaarrrggh
    If I'm working on some e-commerce site though, it makes sense to make the site as accessible to everyone.
    Our e-commerce sites can't do diddley-squat without Javascript. You can't add things to your cart. You can't even see your cart. You can't read product reviews, or see the product's rating number (a jQueer widget that displays images of stars-- no text because everyone know blind people don't buy stuff on teh interwebs). You can't read the submenu (dropdown menu... which, by the way, is a *table* separate from the menu that is tacked on with Javascript when you onmouseover the menu items. Yes). You can't click half the links. The forms don't work either, because they don't have submit buttons, just Ajaxian onclicks and onchanges. Want to choose a different colour Thingie? Sorry, choosing a colour is a complicated task not up to the likes of decade-old checkboxes or selects. No no no, Javascript is absolutely the only way to let people choose an item. After all, e-commerce is an application and applications simply can't be expected to do anything without Javascript, so people had better turn it on if they want to actually... buy something from us.

    Yeah, almost every link is one of these:
    Code:
    <a href="" class="bunch of classes">
    <input type="button" onclick="goto_url('long generated url');" value="name of link">
    </a>
    Without a hash or even a space character in the href, in some browsers you can't even focus on the anchor, because the browser doesn't consider it an anchor. Though in the above case, the input is still an input, so you can focus on that. It just doesn't do anything when you hit enter. Not that it matters: most of the javascript that isn't listening for clicks, only does stuff onmouseover, usually calling a jQueero called "hoverIntent" (meaning after you hover over something, you have to wait a while before something happens for you. You know, because web users are very known for being patient waiters).

    So see, this is where turning off Javascript shows you your garbage code. I don't think it occurred to anyone else that simple HTMLy things were being overly Javascripted.

    I once asked why are we so retarded? One answer I got was, "it's for SEO". Meaning I guess they don't want google clicking on these links because more than one link to a single product "waters down the google juice" or something.
    Later I got another answer: it was just an anchor wrapped around a button to look like a button, but IE wouldn't click on those, so the onclick was added to make it work in IE. Instead of, you know, just letting them remain anchors and styling them to look like buttons.

    FML

  24. #49
    Foozle Reducer ServerStorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ServerStorm View Post
    I have created a plugin that using a quick key I can turn JavaScript on and off.

    Why not just swap to using Opera - you can then simply attach a JavaScript on/off checkbox in the status bar of the browser.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    There's a simple little ad-on for Chrome that does the same thing. Very handy.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricWatson View Post
    And FX

    Quote Originally Posted by felgall View Post
    Opera has it built in though so that you don't need to add anything.
    I created a pluging as I wanted to learn how to do it and it seemed like a simple enough functionality to start-with.

    I'd like to use Opera again - although it is currently busted on my Linux so I have to find time to reinstall it.

    Normally I won't create a custom plugin without thoroughly looking if something already exists.

    Glad to hear that there are plugins for most of the different browsers and Opera has it natively.
    ictus==""

  25. #50
    Mouse catcher silver trophy
    Stevie D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ServerStorm View Post
    Glad to hear that there are plugins for most of the different browsers and Opera has it natively.
    Opera has pretty much everything natively


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