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  1. #1
    SitePoint Zealot thespian's Avatar
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    I am sure that there is a simple answer but I am confused. Being new and wanting to learn as much as possible, I have used frames on my website.

    Looking at most of the "good" websites out there, I seem to get the impression that frames are not overly popular. I have had some minor problems with frames and am wondering whether or not I should exclude them when I give my site a much-needed facelift.

    Any Comments?
    Bill Conté [Protected by Psalm 91]
    Web Mechanix
    Growing OLD is Mandatory - Growing UP is Optional!

  2. #2
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Frames are a very controversial subject. More so than they need to be really. Properly done, frames can provide some benefits but also come with some drawbacks in bookmarking, printing and indexing. You really have to outweigh the pros vs. the cons and decide for your self if you want to go this route. In my opinion, frames cannot be done one anything less than 800X600 resolution so you'll have to provide alternate layouts for smaller screen sizes. Also WebTV cannot do frames at all. Your page will show up in tables on those users browsers.

    Instead of getting into another heated conversation on this here, there have been lots of discussions on Frames here are SitePoint.

    Here are some discussions from the last 30 days - Frame Search
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  3. #3
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    I'll keep it short:

    Drop the frames. I did it on my site and I'm happy this way.

    BTW I'm now using SSI to add the menu and such to the pages.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  4. #4
    SitePoint Zealot thespian's Avatar
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    Thanx Wayne - That confirms what I thought. I just wanted to know if there were any other major factors. Sorry, I should have used the search myself - thanx for the advise though.

    Elledan - At the risk of sounding REALLY REALLY stupid - what is SSI?
    Bill Conté [Protected by Psalm 91]
    Web Mechanix
    Growing OLD is Mandatory - Growing UP is Optional!

  5. #5
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Wayne Luke
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  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    It's the Beginner's Corner...you'd only be considered stupid if you asked us how to turn on your computer.

    Frames, if used well, are just fine and dandy. But unless you consider yourself fairly advanced in terms of web design, odds are you can't achieve a preferable result using them...I know I probably can't!

  7. #7
    SitePoint Zealot thespian's Avatar
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    Thanx Wayne - Thanx Chris

    Where would I be without you guys?
    Bill Conté [Protected by Psalm 91]
    Web Mechanix
    Growing OLD is Mandatory - Growing UP is Optional!

  8. #8
    SitePoint Zealot
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    Don't use frame. It causes difficulty in search engine indexing, bookmarking, and get user confused in using the back and forward buttons.

    Addto! e-commerce and Internet Marketing Directory
    Collects and refers hundreds of ecommerce, internet marketing, and website development solutions and advice to small business owners.
    You can access various domain registration info. too

  9. #9
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by thespian
    Thanx Wayne - That confirms what I thought. I just wanted to know if there were any other major factors. Sorry, I should have used the search myself - thanx for the advise though.

    Elledan - At the risk of sounding REALLY REALLY stupid - what is SSI?
    I started with this page: http://www.stars.com/Authoring/SSI/

    Good luck!

    I recommend this link too: http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/...6/index1a.html
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  10. #10
    SitePoint Zealot thespian's Avatar
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    Right - we have made magic! Thanx so much for the tip on SSI. I have now successfully tried it out and I am sure glad that I heard about this one.

    Just one other thing. Moving SHTML pages up to the Servers at my host and then "executing" them works just fine - but how can I emulate the "Server Side" on my home PC for testing purposes, or is this not possible?

    Thanx
    Bill Conté [Protected by Psalm 91]
    Web Mechanix
    Growing OLD is Mandatory - Growing UP is Optional!

  11. #11
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    1. download apache from http://apache.org
    2. read apache documentation
    3. install apache
    4. you are in business now
    My suggestion read/try more before asking it is the best way to learn(at least for me)
    Great Dane
    Gokhan ARLI

  12. #12
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by thespian
    Right - we have made magic! Thanx so much for the tip on SSI. I have now successfully tried it out and I am sure glad that I heard about this one.

    Just one other thing. Moving SHTML pages up to the Servers at my host and then "executing" them works just fine - but how can I emulate the "Server Side" on my home PC for testing purposes, or is this not possible?

    Thanx
    If you're using Windows you can use PWS in Windows 98 and IIS in Windows 2000.

    If you need instructions on how to set up PWS or IIS: mail me at linkkyle@netscape.net
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.

  13. #13
    SitePoint Wizard edshuck's Avatar
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    hi

    i tried frames. primarily because of the ability to create a menu and use it throughout.

    then before i discovered asp and the other server side things i got into php.

    i like frames but there are elements of control that have always eluded me, so i stay with php.

    peace

    ed

  14. #14
    @russellg RussellG's Avatar
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    Frames are ok. But remember that for people on slower connections (aka: me) the page takes longer to load.

    so for eg: if you had 3 frames, the site would take 3 times as long to load.

    SSI is a life saving tool for big sites, but I prefer PHP.
    russell.cz.cc - coming soon (I promise!)

  15. #15
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    I do not like frames, I think they slow down processign and usually look bad. Use tables for your design layout. try not to use frames.. P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Craig D. Parker
    http://www.fantasystats.com
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  16. #16
    SitePoint Addict gthorley's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    I'll keep it short:

    Drop the frames. I did it on my site and I'm happy this way.

    BTW I'm now using SSI to add the menu and such to the pages.
    What is the advantage of using SSI to add a menu to pages on your site? I can't see it being programming because you could use a template. Does it make the pages load quicker? I can see where if you changed a name on the menu you only have to change one place is that part of it?

  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard edshuck's Avatar
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    hi

    there was a time when some aspects of the site were easiest done in frames. not any more. with ssi (i like php) you can get a treatment that is maintainable. not so with frames.


  18. #18
    Carpe Chicken Chicken's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gthorley
    What is the advantage of using SSI to add a menu to pages on your site? I can't see it being programming because you could use a template. Does it make the pages load quicker? I can see where if you changed a name on the menu you only have to change one place is that part of it?
    That is most of it. Templates are great until you have to change that one itty-bitty link. DOH! Have to use a search-replace-destroy (just kidding on the destroy part), to do the same thing as changing that one file. The only drawback (as has been mentioned), is that you cannot see the page as it will be without PWS. (Email that guy above since I don't know how to set that up )

    You can also just have one sample html file *with* the text from the pages you are going to insert, and see what the page will look like. Visualize. Smoke something if you have to...
    HostHideout.com - Where professionals discuss web hosting.
    • Chicken

  19. #19
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack! Fluffykins's Avatar
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    Howdy.

    Is there any speed increase in page loading from using SSI?

    I use DW templates and library items to add in borders, consistent navigations and things of the ilk to my sites, then update the template / library item to update them globally (possibly the most useful feature i've ever come across, when our department changes it's logo every three weeks)

    If SSI makes the pages load faster from the user's point of view, I might have a look at that instead. It's pretty similar to #include files in ASP and FrontPage I guess.

    Ady
    v-technologies - Freelance Goodness.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Zealot thespian's Avatar
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    Ady,

    As you can see, only a short while ago I had not even heard of SSI (I started this thread), and now I am going to answer your question (I Hope).

    I am pretty sure that I am correct in saying that SSI works exactly the same as your ASP includes. I started using SSI (using the .shtml extension) when I read a tip about the fact that you can do the same in ASP. Now, since I intend to learn and implement ASP in the very near future, I though what the hell, and renamed my files to .asp in preperation. What do you know - viola! Check this out - http://www.bravenet.com/reviews/arch...2000_10_10.txt

    I must say, now that I have got used to using includes, it really is simple and easy to get used to - just keep a clear head about directory structures and the like!

    Speedwise I can't really tell, but it certainly is faster that using frames and easier.

    gthorley,

    Very stronly suggest that you install PWS (Personal Web Server) so that you can view the full effect of using includes. It is relatively easy to do. Having only just done so myself (3 days ago) I will be more than happy to give you the details of what I did whilst they are still fresh in my mind. Contact me on bconte@financialiq.net and copy bconte@acenet.co.za

    Thanx to everyone who contributed to this thread - you have taught me an inredible amount.
    Bill Conté [Protected by Psalm 91]
    Web Mechanix
    Growing OLD is Mandatory - Growing UP is Optional!

  21. #21
    I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaack! Fluffykins's Avatar
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    Good stuff, so they should be relativley simple. It'll be worth me looking into the technology for reference if nothing else.

    Thanks re: PWS, but I've had it installed for a while now, starting with PWS3 (shipped with FP98) and now onto PWS4 which I can honestly say was the single most annoying download ever.

    To get it on my NT machine at work, I had to D/L IE5, then install that, then this option pack thing only to get at PWS. Microsoft if you're reading this make it a direct download!

    Ady

    v-technologies - Freelance Goodness.

  22. #22
    SitePoint Enthusiast
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    What is PWS?
    Where can I download it?

  23. #23
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    I won't deny that frames can be valuable in certain situations, and in fact, I use them on my message boards to make it appear the users are still on my site, however, there is no reason for anything to be using them throughout their entire site as their design. Ick!

  24. #24
    SitePoint Zealot thespian's Avatar
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    Originally posted by realcoasters
    What is PWS?
    Where can I download it?
    PWS = Personal Web Server (Microsoft) Ships with Windows 9x, FrontPage, NT, MS Project, etc.

    You are welcome to contact me at bconte@acenet.co.za and I will attempt to talk you through the setup which I have only just learnt myself!
    Bill Conté [Protected by Psalm 91]
    Web Mechanix
    Growing OLD is Mandatory - Growing UP is Optional!

  25. #25
    Skills to Pay the Bills Sparkie's Avatar
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    To answer the original question.. putting frames on your site is really a controversial subject. I personally try to avoid them (because tables work so much better!), but there are some sites that are highly complimented by frames..such as art galleries and showcases that have a lot of links that require little updating.

    If you're running a content-heavy site or a site that you know will benefit a lot of users, I'd steer away from using frames because of the inability to properly bookmark and print the pages, as well as problems with search engines indexing your site.

    Overall there are better alternatives!

    Sherice Jacob - Web Improvement Expert
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