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    What's your opinion on this election?
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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I don't know about the election but I do know that the actions of NATO were/are illegal and that NATO members are trying to illegaly interfere in the election process of a sovereign nation.


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    LuZeR - Milosevic isnt exactly a model citizen, but i guess your opinion depends on what part of the world you are from!

    NATO's actions illegal?
    Wouldnt Milosevic's actions a few years ago be illegal?

    Sadam Milosevic Hitler etc etc.... they are heros to us all....... NOT!

    9 times out of 10 NATO does the right thing, although we can all think of cases when they have stuffed up.
    But at the end of the day, its not worth a mention when compared with the crimes against humanity that people like Milosevic commit, have a think about it mate!


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    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Isn't Milosevic a criminal of war (or how that it's called)???

    It's always something around Russia

    Let's hope the people will choose the right one aand Milo won't mess things up during the election.

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    SitePoint Enthusiast emke's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    I don't know about the election but I do know that the actions of NATO were/are illegal and that NATO members are trying to illegaly interfere in the election process of a sovereign nation.
    I try not to go into these kind of discussions but I had to when I saw this post. I'm from Bosnia and we used to be a part of Yugoslavia before the war (1992-1995) and I don't know if you're aware of this but do you know that Milosevic is responsible for death of 300 000 people, 200 000 women raped, 1 000 000-1 500 000 people had to leave their homes. He is a war criminal and he's been accused for the worst crimes that a man can be accused of.
    I really can't understand when somebody is saying these kind of things above, you weren't here, you don't know anything that happened here, you didn't experience one of the worst wars that happened since the second world war. I'm fully aware that somebody who hasn't experienced this can talk about morality of somebody's actions (NATO trying to put him away) but until you truly understand what happened here you should try to stay away from these kind of topics.
    Do you know how many children are without their fathers, how many mothers are without their children, how many people have have suffered just because of this one man and his plans to have a big Serbia, ethnically clean?
    Can you even come close to imagine what they've gone through, how much they've suffered?
    I'll not go into this discussion any further and I apologize for this long post but I get really mad when I see somebody who is ignorant like this and who doesn't know anything about the actual situation and the things that have happened here, trying to defend a man who is responsible for the things that I've mentioned above.
    That's it.
    And yes Milosevic is a criminal of war, he's been accused of war crimes, mass murder etc. and there is a warant for his arest (I think it's called like that). There is even a 5 000 000 $ reward for someone that'll bring him in front of the court. That'll of course never happen but still.

  6. #6
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I'm not in any way downplaying the horror of what happened and the lives that were lost. However, this 'ethnic cleansing' actually increased after NATO went into Yugoslavia and that is exactly what NATO expected to happen according to their own documents! The US and NATO have also been found guilty of war crimes.

    NATO admits Yugoslavs carried out no mass killings in Kosovo

    NATO's chemical warfare

    Report finds no evidence of ‘Racak massacre’


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    I served in Bosnia with the UN (before NATO moved in) and I think you'll find that any increase in ethnic cleansing came from people moving from one place to another rather than being killed once UN / NATO troops moved in.

    I was based in Vitez, an area surrounded by all three 'factions' and each hated each other. Yugoslavia should never have been made in the first place, the Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian cultures should not be forced to join as one country if they don't want to, this enevitably leads to the culture with the majority in the new country trying to gain the upper hand.

    Although the sides were split by religion it was, as is often the case, the ambition of one man who ignited the whole thing.

    War and conflict are never black and white and all sides are always going to do 'questionable' things, but in my opinion Milosevic is the major criminal here and should be punished.

    Peter
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    The only things that I know about this situation is that what I've read in the newspapers and saw on TV, so don't blame me for any errors I make.

    Still, I think that Milosevic is a good example of what you call a dictator. IMHO only Saddam Hussein is more 'evil'.

    BUT the biggest faults people make is that they underestimate a dictator. The average dictator is very smart, intelligent and cunning. Therefore it's not a match for those (less intelligent) commanders of the NATO and other armies.

    It's not accidently that (about) any dictator is a psychopath. A psychopath doesn't know feelings of quilt, has the emotions of a child, is self-centred, distrusting and short-tempered. Not a very nice person to know, thus.
    Keep in mind that psychopaths like Milosevic and Saddam aren't crazy or insane, they simply don't care about other people: they're extremely self-preserving.

    Simply said, guys like Milosevic are like the bullies of the class: they're not very handy, but they're populair and everybody seems to like them.
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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    One other thing is that in the peace agreement presented to Milosevic before the bombing was ridiculous. Here is a portion of a paper I wrote on the subject.

    The so called peace agreement offered to President Milosevic just before the bombing raid was so ridiculous that no leader would have accepted such terms under any condition, except perhaps unconditional surrender. Portions of the rejected agreement read as follows: (Appendix B: Section 8)

    NATO personnel shall enjoy, together with their vehicles, vessels, aircraft, and equipment, free and unrestricted passage and unimpeded access throughout the FRY including associated airspace and territorial waters. This shall include, but not be limited to, the right of bivouac, maneuver, billet, and utilization of any areas or facilities as required for support, training, and operations.
    And Chomsky notes:

    The remainder spells out the conditions that permit NATO forces and those they employ to act as they choose throughout the territory of the FRY, without obligation or concern for the laws of the country or the jurisdiction of its authorities, who are, however, required to follow NATO orders "on a priority basis and with all appropriate means."
    These demands are rougly the equivalent of the Chinese Army or any other military force demanding that the US give them total control over the country if they don't happen to like our president!

    You can read the entire paper at http://activistnews.plebius.org/article/000406

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    SitePoint Wizard westmich's Avatar
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    I had a couple questions for LuZeR -

    1) What country are you from? I am assuming you currently live in China or North Korea or one of the socialist countries from Eastern Europe.

    2) Can you site any other source to back-up your statements other then your own news organization?
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    SitePoint Enthusiast emke's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    I'm not in any way downplaying the horror of what happened and the lives that were lost. However, this 'ethnic cleansing' actually increased after NATO went into Yugoslavia and that is exactly what NATO expected to happen according to their own documents!
    That's not true, I live in Bosnia and ethnic cleansing has not increased after the NATO attacks.
    The US and NATO have also been found guilty of war crimes.
    [/B]
    Who found them guilty? That's stupid.
    Well, I've talked to a lot of people from Kosovo and I know for a fact that they did carry out mass killings in Kosovo but let's say they didn't, I know they did it in Bosnia.
    But I guess that LuZeR thinks that it happened long time ago so it should be forgotten.
    Don't know anything about these two things above but I don't believe in it after all these other stupidities and lies that you've said before.
    Do you know anything about the actual situation here?
    Sorry, no need to answer that. I can see that you don't from your previous posts.

  12. #12
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by westmich


    1) What country are you from? I am assuming you currently live in China or North Korea or one of the socialist countries from Eastern Europe.
    USA.

    Originally posted by westmich

    2) Can you site any other source to back-up your statements other then your own news organization?
    http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9905-balkans.htm
    http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles...ace-accord.htm
    http://www.iacenter.org/bosnia/elich_strike.htm
    http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/index.htm
    http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/wct2000.htm
    http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aipub/2...R/47001800.htm
    http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur...llet_text.html

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by emke
    Originally posted by LuZeR
    I'm not in any way downplaying the horror of what happened and the lives that were lost. However, this 'ethnic cleansing' actually increased after NATO went into Yugoslavia and that is exactly what NATO expected to happen according to their own documents!
    That's not true, I live in Bosnia and ethnic cleansing has not increased after the NATO attacks.
    The US State Department and NATO both claim the mission was a humanitarian one, although "ethnic cleansing" atrocities increased after the bombing began from 2-300,000 refugees before the bombing to 7-800,000 refugees after it began. More Serb civilians were killed in the first three weeks after the bombing started, than in the three months prior.

    Who found them guilty? That's stupid.
    http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/wct2000.htm

    Don't know anything about these two things above but I don't believe in it after all these other stupidities and lies that you've said before. Do you know anything about the actual situation here? Sorry, no need to answer that. I can see that you don't from your previous posts.
    Nope. I guess I know nothing.

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Peter Hibbit

    I was based in Vitez, an area surrounded by all three 'factions' and each hated each other. Yugoslavia should never have been made in the first place, the Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian cultures should not be forced to join as one country if they don't want to, this enevitably leads to the culture with the majority in the new country trying to gain the upper hand.
    I agree. There has been conflict in this region for hundreds of years and even to give each group their own nation state would not entirely eliminate it.

    On the other hand, at what point do you stop giving each 'nation' self governance? The US Government doesn't seem so keen on the establishment of nation states when those nations are within our borders and the establishment of a nation state for them would erode their power and influence both economically and politically in various regions.


    Although the sides were split by religion it was, as is often the case, the ambition of one man who ignited the whole thing.
    He may have inspired additional violence, but many of the feelings have been around for hundreds of years. I don't know how NATO suspects they're going to solve 500 years of conflict using a few bombs.

    War and conflict are never black and white and all sides are always going to do 'questionable' things, but in my opinion Milosevic is the major criminal here and should be punished.
    I agree that Milosevic shouldn't be pushing his nationalism the way he has been, but I also do not agree with NATO's actions.

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    Luzer - it's difficult for your arguments to stand up agaisnt emke's.

    He was there, I was there (though I bow to Emke having more knowledge on the subject), and we must surely be more informed than you... don't you think?

    You can find many documents on the net saying that the holocaust didn't happen - but it did!

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    Back to the original topic, let me first state that I would hope no one in here actually supports or sides with Milosevic.

    Also, as I figured would happen, Miolosevic has no intention of stepping down even though his opponent (Kostunica) cleary won by popular vote, even with all the election rigging and voting fraud that was done by Milosevic to keep himself in power. The people don't want him, he is essentially a dictator, and he should get the boot. Simple as that.

  18. #18
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Peter Hibbit
    Luzer - it's difficult for your arguments to stand up agaisnt emke's.

    He was there, I was there (though I bow to Emke having more knowledge on the subject), and we must surely be more informed than you... don't you think?

    You can find many documents on the net saying that the holocaust didn't happen - but it did!

    Peter
    Yes. He was there, that doesn't mean he knows how many people were killed. The US state department said 10,000 then they said 100,000 so what is the number?

    Of course the holocaust happened and I have no doubt that people were killed in Yugoslavia. What I do doubt is the number constantly quoted by the US state department and others.

    For the record I am not siding with Milosevic.

    The main point I have been trying to make is that NATO acted illegally. The US involvement through NATO was also unconstitutional as acts of war were committed without the approval of congress. Read the US constitution if you disagree. I also call into question NATOs motivation for becoming involved in the situation. There are atrocities taking place in many places all the time that the US does nothing about. It seems most of their actions are politically and economically motivated, and not for humanitarian reasons.

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    Point taken.

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    Lemme ask you guys something... DId any of you know how to spell Milosevic before this topic?
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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Yep.


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    SitePoint Enthusiast emke's Avatar
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    LuZeR, I really don't get your points, I can tell you one thing about how many people were killed.
    Just in Srebrenica, a town that was taken over by Serbs and Yugoslavians because it's really close to the border of Yugoslavia, 10 000 people were killed.
    You can see a lot of info about the fall of Srebrenica here:
    http://www.amnesty.org/news/2000/46301000.htm
    In Bosnia every week, at least two or three mass grave yards are found. I know for a fact that at least 200 000 people were killed and that a lot of people are missing, do you think they'll ever be found?
    This is just one of many:
    http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/Bosnia/upda...-23/index.html
    I don't care about how many dead people NATO thinks there are, I most certainly don't like NATO because they let us almost die here, didn't do nothing for us.
    I've heard a taped conversation where Milosevic and Karadzic are talking to each other during the world here and they are talking about what civilian buildings they should bomb and they can't decide over the people that are waiting to get bread or the people that are waiting for water. Eventually they decided that they should bomb the people that were waiting for the bread.
    You can see it here, my aunt was there that day, she left five minuts earlier.
    http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/Bosnia/upda...-28/index.html
    This is just one little boy, who cares about him, right LuZeR? (Do you even know how many cases there are like this?)
    http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/Bosnia/upda...9pm/index.html
    Please read this also:
    http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/aipub/1...R/46302297.htm
    There is really nothing I can do to describe how much people have suffered because of this one man and you're standing up for him.
    And regarding all of your info on the subject, do you know how much info you can find on the web regarding wars that are false?

  23. #23
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I don't know where you got the idea I'm standing up for Milosevic or where you got the idea that I don't care anybody died like a little boy or anybody else. You obviously haven't even read what I've said. I suppose you think that I want more people to die.


    By the way, the source for one of your stories was a Bosnian Prime Minister and "The discovery has not been verified by outside observers."

    See what I said a few posts up, please.


    [Edited by LuZeR on 09-29-2000 at 11:55 AM]

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by emke

    And regarding all of your info on the subject, do you know how much info you can find on the web regarding wars that are false?
    That applies not only to my information, but to any on the web you supply. Your comments being on the web very well could fall under that comment too.

    One more thing. The truth is subjective.

  25. #25
    SitePoint Enthusiast emke's Avatar
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    I did read your earlier posts but if you read them from the beginning to the end, you can see a change of tone in your postings.
    Most of your stories are anti-NATO, here is just one interesting thing that I read in one of them:

    The Members urge public action and mobilization to stop new and continued sanctions and aggressions by the U.S. and other NATO powers against Iraq, Cuba, North Korea, the countries of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, Puerto Rico, Asia, Sudan, Colombia and other countries. We ask for the immediate cessation of overt/covert activities by the U.S. and NATO in such countries.

    They're basically saying, hey don't interfere, let the stronger side kill the weaker side and there'll be no problems at all. They found Clinton and NATO guilty because they helped the weaker side survive, if I was Clinton or NATO I would be proud of the fact.
    Regarding the information on the web that you stated could be false, one thing is for sure. I believe more in CNN than in iacenter.org that stands for International Action Centre which is against NATO. At least CNN is objective.
    Yes, the truth is subjective but like was stated earlier in one post, you can't possibly be arguing over the information with somebody who was here. I was here, you weren't.
    You defended Milosevic or Yugoslavia (as it's a sovereign nation) and obviously Yugoslavia is Milosevic. He is a dictator and he rules there so if you defend Yugoslavia (a sovereign nation as you say), you defend Milosevic, he pulls all the strings there.
    Just some background on Kosovo and the problems that caused the war, something you obviously don't know much about.
    90% population of Kosovo are Albanians. They weren't allowed to speak their own language in schools, universities, they couldn't get any jobs, all the police men were Serbs. They were what you in US call second class citizens. They tried to negotiate for 20 years, trouble actually started there in 1981 when they wanted to be allowed to speak and learn their language in schools and universities. Since then they've been trying to fight for their rights.
    And yes, I'm actually very subjective on this matter. I don't like Milosevic exactly as I don't like Hitler. I really don't want to be objective on this matter, these people killed thousands and thousands of people and I definitely don't want to be objective. I hate them and wish that they've never been born. Nothing can justify what they did, NATO attacked Yugoslavia because if they hadn't, Kosovo would have been another Bosnia. That's the reason, I'm also sure that NATO didn't want to hurt any civilians but I'm sure that Milosevic wanted to do that (he did in Bosnia). In order to stop somebody from doing something bad (like start a war) you can't as they say in one of your stories "not interfere" innocent people will be killed, so they have to act strong and if they acted strong in 1992 when all this started we wouldn't be here arguing over this, back then they did exactly what you want them to do, they stayed out of it and didn't interfere and what happened?
    Bosnia happened.
    Sure you can argue about how many people were killed in Bosnia, was it 10 000 or 200 000 but one thing is for sure, innocent people were killed and if it was even one child or 200 000 that shouldn't have happened.

    This is how I see your opinion (lets go back to 1945), Hitler is alive (no suicide) and he is the leader in Germany, he has killed thousands and thousands of people and the world want him to be held responsible for his actions. Then in a part of Germany lets say for example Bavaria (I think it's called like this, where Munich is situated), the population which is 90% for example Finnish want to be allowed to learn their language in schools, to speak their own language, to get better jobs, be equal to the other 10% of population and then Hitler gets mad and decides not to allow them to even live there, he wants them to disappear. So he starts to mobilize his army, he starts to attack them and the world tells him, don't do that but he tells them that he would never do such a thing but they already are but as the world has already learned their lesson based on Poland in 1939 (in this case Bosnia), they know that they can't trust him and they attack him and they save the population of Bavaria.
    Have they done something wrong, I think not.
    If the allied forces had attacked Hitler when he took over Poland, the Second World War would have been avoided. Instead they waited because they didn't want to "interfere", Hitler's sick ideas and his military forces grew and got stronger and we all know what happened.
    But if they had interfered I'm sure that a lot of people would have thought that they had no right to interfere in a matter of a "sovereign nation" and that they made the wrong decision. You seem to be one of these people.
    I know just one thing, people were killed because of allied forces not interfering when they should have in 1939, people were killed because NATO didn't interfere in Bosnia in 1992. People were not killed because NATO did interfere in Kosovo.
    Now you're going to say that people were killed, well that's true but certainly not even close to how many people would have been killed if NATO didn't interfere.
    I apologize for such a long post.


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