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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    "Perl Is Not Dead, It Is A Dead End"

    A project to have a somewhat cleaner (not backwards-compatible with Perl4) version of Perl5.


    Stevan Little's slides from a talk he gave about his project:
    https://speakerdeck.com/stevan_littl...-is-a-dead-end

    This is apparently something even core Perl5 devs are looking into. Will be interesting to see what will come of it.

  2. #2
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    Hi there. My first post and it's negative... I've actually been thinking about this a bunch lately.... I can get flamed for it all I want, but perl is dead, and it's not coming back too much bad memories of the language. I think the window was right when ruby was taking off, but it's kinda too little too late...

    It's a fun idea, but I think companies are mostly looking to oust perl in favor of more legit modern programming languages and once they jump ship, they ain't coming back.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jshin View Post
    It's a fun idea, but I think companies are mostly looking to oust perl in favor of more legit modern programming languages and once they jump ship, they ain't coming back.
    Congratulations - you have me at a total loss. I don't know how to engage with your unalloyed and unsubstantiated FUD beyond simply saying that it's incorrect and pointing out that these "more legit modern programming languages" are quite happy to borrow from recent Perl work - the most prominent example probably being Joose, a JavaScript meta-object system based on Perl 5's Moose, which, in turn, is based on the Perl 6 object system.

  4. #4
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    Because someone ported Moose into Javascript, it validates the whole future of a language? It looks like the person who made Joose has his contact email address on cpan. And it looks like Joose hasn't been touched in over a year and it's not like it has some wide adoption. First time hearing about it.

    Can you seriously tell me that you see Perl thriving 10 years from now? Now you have me at a total loss for not being able to see the obvious. The fact that this forum is dead dead dead should indicate something should it not?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jshin View Post
    Can you seriously tell me that you see Perl thriving 10 years from now?
    I can seriously tell you that Perl is doing much better today than it was 10 years ago, both in terms of the quality of the language and the vitality of the community. I see no reason to expect that trend to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by jshin View Post
    The fact that this forum is dead dead dead should indicate something should it not?
    *looks at the name of the forum* You mean the Perl and Python forum? If the dead forum means the language is "dead... and it's not coming back", then why aren't you also insisting that Python is pushing up daisies?

    More to the point, though, SitePoint is a site on general topics related to running websites, not a dedicated programming forum, so it's not exactly a great place to judge the general vitality of languages. Go take a look at StackOverflow or PerlMonks and you'll find a much larger volume of Perl-related questions posted on either of those sites in a day than SitePoint gets in a month.

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    I've urged SitePoint to remove the Perl, Python and maybe even Ruby forums for a few years now, seeings how SitePointers seem to have almost zero interest in these languages, regardless of their actual use or popularity. Ruby would be the exception in that SitePoint the company is somewhat active(er) with Ruby stuff and might be ramping Ruby articles and books up a bit more.

    Re Perl in general: those using Perl, see it thriving because it's innovating and doing its thing. Those outside Perl don't see any change since 1999. It's an echo-chamber issue.

    Found out at FOSDEM that Ada is actually alive, well, being updated, and has a pretty damn active (but small) community around it. I doubt anyone outside of Ada knows this. A search for jobs turns up little. Turns out the place to get Ada jobs is their irc channel. Who knew.

  7. #7
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    Have a look at the job boards for Perl jobs.

    1,201 jobs containing Perl in Sydney in the last 30 days.

    I wouldn't call that dead.

  8. #8
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Well, but how many of them are jobs listing 5 other languages at the same time? I don't count those. :P

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    And which languages are very much alive?

    I'm not going to argue with the statement that Perl is dead; but to help focus my learning efforts, I'm more interested in learning which languages are alive, and how alive are they? Which languages will have strong legs over the next, say, five years?

    To make this more fun and informative, let's try to quantify it: list a few languages and rate them on a scale from 0 to 100, where 0 is "deader than dead," and 100 is "as vibrantly alive as one can imagine!"

    Thanks

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPSpilot View Post
    I'm not going to argue with the statement that Perl is dead; but to help focus my learning efforts, I'm more interested in learning which languages are alive, and how alive are they? Which languages will have strong legs over the next, say, five years?

    To make this more fun and informative, let's try to quantify it: list a few languages and rate them on a scale from 0 to 100, where 0 is "deader than dead," and 100 is "as vibrantly alive as one can imagine!"

    Thanks
    Try this:

    Http://langpop.com/

    Sad to say not one mention of Prolog which is my favourite language
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    Ok, C tops the charts at langpop.com. But does it follow that "the language most likely to be vibrantly alive five years from now is C"? That's what I'm really getting at. I'm looking for insight into this question from all you human experts.

    Thanks

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Perl is certainly going to be around in 5 years. The core Perl5 guys make a (testing) release every 6 months. You know it's testing, development or minor because it's an odd number and minor (like, 5.15.x), whereas stable releases are large even numbers (5.16). 5.16 is the current stable, though by now there's prolly a bug-fix version 5.16.something. A stable release is supported actively for 2 years, and security fixes for 3. A lot of the innovation is porting was-experimental stuff from Perl6 to Perl5, and Perl6 has inspiration from various cool places like Haskell and OCAML, among others.

    Perl also has a large, worldwide, vibrant community (and sub-communities, mostly based on geographic location, known as monge(u)r groups) and members are active on places like StackOverflow. CPAN has also been getting some remakes: there's metaCPAN, a better search engine for finding things on CPAN (and one of the filters is activity, to more easily find what's been abandoned vs actively maintained), and cpanminus for easy_install-like builds of modules.

    Re the Object system: Larry Wall once said:
    Quote Originally Posted by larry
    I don't really know much about Python. I only stole its object system for Perl 5. I have since repented.
    However many didn't like the Perl-version-of-Python-objects present in early Perl 5. People outside Perl don't seem to know it's now got a nice clean OO layer (Moose, Mouse or Moo) if you want, where you can use roles and traits to your liking, and it's got WSGI implementations too, PSGI (usually using Plack middleware between your app and whatever servers).

    So I'd say Perl is pretty alive, but the number of developers is dropping, or maybe more accurately, new programmers haven't heard of viable Modern Perl and so there's not the same stream of noobs coming in like some other languages have.

  13. #13
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    NASA uses Perl. MIT scientists use Perl. Most major laboratories, biologists use Perl. Are they dead?

    And I can go on: Yahoo, eBay, Amazon...

    And remember, Perl is a patch language, the same way Apache started, so you will always use.

    The fact that there is no version 6 yet of it is prove that 5.x is stable enough unlike PHP which updates almost monthly though I like both languages.

    Plus, I can't use PHP for every tasks the same way we use Perl.

    Both good languages, both with future Perl a little more difficult to learn because a lot of people freak out when they see Regex all over, but that is exactly its strong which PHP will never do.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by internetdominus
    The fact that there is no version 6 yet of it is prove
    There is a 6, you can run it, use it, and write in it right now if you want.
    http://www.perl6.org/

    (I do apologize for camilla, she does make me cringe)

    Quote Originally Posted by internetdominus
    Most major laboratories, biologists use Perl.
    Increasingly they're using Python though. Probably due to the likes of mathplotlib (many people wanted to leave Wolfram's Mathematica), NumPy and SciPy.


    Interesting enough, your username reminds me of a Perl guy's: MJ Dominus, who wrote the seminal 'HIgher Order Perl', or "the functional perl book"

  15. #15
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    I agree that its far from 'dead', the fact that objective-c can become a popular language while being old and user-unfriendly pretty much says that any retro-programming languages may easily make a comeback so long as people find good reasons to use it or the developers find a way for it to be used. I wouldnt even count out granddaddies like Fortran(in fact if you are a petroleum process engineer, you may need to know how to code in Fortran to use some advanced features in the software Aspen Plus lol).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Betong View Post
    Try this:

    Http://langpop.com/

    Sad to say not one mention of Prolog which is my favourite language
    That's because its been replaced by Erlang

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiheretic View Post
    That's because its been replaced by Erlang
    Many thanks for the info'.

    Part of the Uni' Course was to compare and evaluate different languages. Prolog was the most fascinating.
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  18. #18
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Saw an interesting talk from a few years ago by an Ada guy to a bunch of they-look-waaaay-too-young MIT kids about the development of Ada. He also mentioned other languages, and one example was that the whole New York City traffic light system was in Pascal. Usually those sorts of things are written in Ada.

    Ada's pretty cool, and while I couldn't make it to FOSDEM this year, it sounded like the Ada devroom was pretty full all day. (so was the Perl devroom, incidentally: here's a photo from a talk on A/B testing by Ovid, tho he's usually a popular speaker https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfZbZPIIYAAH5vA.jpg:large )

  19. #19
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    Perl will always have a place in certain communities....but as a general scripting language, Python took over as the most popular (in usage and job opportunities) a long time ago. No offense to the Perl community, because they make great contributions every year, when it's supposed to have been dead already, but it's pretty easy to see why Python has eclipsed it.


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