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  1. #26
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    Thank you RussellG. I was just about to make that point. Being a woman I would like to have that choice, after all, its 9 months of _my_ body that I will be giving up!

    I am pro choice, and so far I agree with every point LuZeR made. As to me, I love kids, and some day I will have a few, but its a very important decision. I would never want to let my child live without a father, be financially deprived (or unstable). I would want to have all the time in the world to spend with my baby and give it all I can. If the situation doesnt satisfy those conditions, then choices have to be made. Having a child is a big responsibility, and maybe for the majority of men that feeling is different than for us, women. I knew yound girls who thought they were pro life, and had babies at 16-18 years old, now the babies are either abandoned or live in a very unhappy setting, because their young mothers decided that they still have a lot of things they want to do in their lives and don't have the time for a baby. So their children grow up unhappy and unloved. It's situations like this that pro-lifers disregard...


  2. #27
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    I think sperm and eggs are alive, they are also human. I don't think it's wrong to kill them. Is killing germs and viruses wrong? They are absolutely alive.

    It's too late once the woman goes into labor, since at that point birth is pretty much inevitable. At conception, chances are the woman will miscarry, 2/3 of all pregnancies miscarry... a "natural" abortion shall we say? So, God personally aborts 2/3 of all pregnancies. Most the time the woman doesn't even know she was pregnant.
    [/B]
    I don't follow your logic. At least you admitted unborn babies are human at conception. But you think it's OK to kill a human prior to birth because chances are the human baby won't live anyhow? So you admitted that the baby is alive, it just hasn't been delivered. It just hasn't hasn't come out of the womb yet.

    Do you think it's an abortion before the live human is delivered, but it's murder after the live human is delivered? I don't see what the difference is. Before the baby is born, she requires her mother to provide her food and shelter. After she is born, she requires her mother (or some other adult) to provide her food and shelter. Is it alright to kill her up until the point she can fend for herself?

    If I set my 2.5 year old outside our house in July of this year, she would have either died of heat stroke, car accident, or starvation/food poisoning. Is that "natural"?

    What exactly is a natural abortion? Is leaving your baby in the dumpster a natural abortion? When is it no longer OK to stop providing food (umbilicle cord or bottle) or shelter (womb or house)? Are you just going to let the baby fend for herself and see if she naturally dies or naturally lives?
    Jim Lewis
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  3. #28
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    temis, I don't think your logic works either.

    Is it alright to kill your 85 year old grandmother because you have other things you want to do with your life or you just don't have time for her? If your grandmother is unloved or has been abandoned or is unhappy, is it alright to terminate her life? Is it OK to kill your grandmother because you don't want her to be a financial burdern?

    You are talking about deciding whether or not a human should live based upon whether or not they are wanted. As humans, we have a greater responsibility than that.
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  4. #29
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    Here is the real question, I think. Why does responsibility begin at birth and not conception? Why does it begin at birth and not when you get into bed?
    Jim Lewis
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  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by temis
    Thank you RussellG. I was just about to make that point. Being a woman I would like to have that choice, after all, its 9 months of _my_ body that I will be giving up!
    ...
    It's situations like this that pro-lifers disregard...
    Your body, yes, but with someone else's body inside of you. The woman and man are NOT the only people involved in an abortion. In addition, you giveup your right (or ought to, at least) when you decide to take a chance by sleeping with someone. If you're not ready, then don't do it. You'll live...

    By the way: I think a child would rather live in a poor household or with a somewhat distant parent then not live at all. Unfortunatly they never got to the point where they can say so. Of course kids will be born into less-then-ideal conditions...but that can't effect things - if it does, then it will go farther and farther, to the point where people have abortions because things are not *FULLY* optimal, or they just don't feel like it.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    Hey, everybody. I just want to let you know that this is fun to me. I like debating big issues. If I met any of you on the street, I'd shake your hand and be pleased to meet you. Don't think that just because I disagree with you that I think you are stupid or pondscum or I don't like you. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    Jim Lewis
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  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Same here.

  8. #33
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    TWT, it sounds like you are a child from a good, loving household. Have you ever known kids that were like that? I used to live next door to a family of pro life alcoholics, they had 4 kids, unplanned. Their oldest daughter is now 15. Their dad was always in jail. When he was out, he beat the kids and the mom, she got mad and killed him. Her oldest daughter is now a whore, at 15 years old, brothers are either in juvenile jail or on the street. The girl used to tell me she would rather die that live like this. I saved her from an OD once. Mother just gout out this year after serving 6 years in jail. I know this is an extreme case, but I think it illustrates my point well.

    james,
    there is a difference between 85 year old grandmother and aborting, say, a 5 week old child. Its not even a child, its a bunch of unformed cells. It becomes a child when hands, feet, head forms. Some women do get abortions when thay are 6 months pregnant, I know one like that. That I don't encourage, You can terminate pregnancy at an earlier stage without any harmful concequences for the mother.

    Responsibility comes at conception - agreed. Thats why a responsible adult will make an educated choice about keeping the child.

    Anyway, if the abortions were made illegal, they would still happen, but at risk to the woman in the back alley (just like someone said earlier, LuZeR, I beleive).

    Hey, everybody. I just want to let you know that this is fun to me. I like debating big issues. If I met any of you on the street, I'd shake your hand and be pleased to meet you. Don't think that just because I disagree with you that I think you are stupid or pondscum or I don't like you. Nothing could be further from the truth.
    me too

  9. #34
    SitePoint Zealot Lorina's Avatar
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    I'm kind of an oxymoron. I'm "pro-choice," yet I would rather the choice be to not get pregnant in the first place. Take responsiblity before conception. I don't necessarily think abortions should be illegal, but I think they are thought of in a far too cavalier attitude. I don't know if any of this will make any sense, because there's about a dozen conflicting ideas running through my head.

    In most circumstances, the reason a woman has an abortion boils down to one thing: Selfishness.

    They don't want in inconvenience of having a baby at that time, or it would be embarassing, or put a damper on their social life, or distort their bodies, or get in the way of their career. It's purely selfish reasons. Don't try to feed me that line of bull about "quality of life" either. Being poor and/or not having a father present is a heck of a lot better than being DEAD. The quality of life arguement is just a cop-out

    If a man a woman is sleeping with is the kind of guy who would ditch a girl if she got pregnant, she has no business sleeping with him.

    "Partial-birth" abortions -- that's basically late-term abortions, isn't it? I see no reason for this to exist, except to save the mother's life. Shouldn't a woman be able to decide in the first 3 months of getting pregnant that she doesn't want the baby?

    Birth control failure rates. Those are incredibly low *providing they're used correctly.* I'd like to see the same statistics with a lie detector involved. Broken condoms... puh-leeze. Yeah, I know it happens, but I'd be willing to bet money that 90% of broken condom stories are coverups for either not using one at all, or using it incorrectly. And the Pill is basically fool-proof too, providing you take it every day at the same time every day.

    Someone said something about "raising an unwanted baby." An unwanted pregnancy, I can understand, but if someone has an unwanted CHILD, they've got serious mental problems. I don't understand how anyone could hold a grudge and not love someone that they gave birth to.

    'Nother point... Someone said something to the effect that "women will still get abortions even if it's illegal." Well, people rob banks, commit murder, and do crack even though it's illegal, should we legalize those things too?

    If having an abortion is such a great thing, how come you don't often hear from people who've had them? "Hey, I got knocked up, but that's fine because I had an abortion, so I can still wear a bikini!" Could it be that people don't think that there's anything wrong with it until they have one?

    You know, the more I think about it, or at least put my words down on "monitor," the more I realize I'm more pro-life. But I still don't think it will ever become illegal to get an abortion.
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  10. #35
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by temis
    TWT, it sounds like you are a child from a good, loving household. Have you ever known kids that were like that? I used to live next door to a family of pro life alcoholics, they had 4 kids, unplanned. Their oldest daughter is now 15. Their dad was always in jail. When he was out, he beat the kids and the mom, she got mad and killed him. Her oldest daughter is now a whore, at 15 years old, brothers are either in juvenile jail or on the street. The girl used to tell me she would rather die that live like this. I saved her from an OD once. Mother just gout out this year after serving 6 years in jail. I know this is an extreme case, but I think it illustrates my point well.

    james,
    there is a difference between 85 year old grandmother and aborting, say, a 5 week old child. Its not even a child, its a bunch of unformed cells. It becomes a child when hands, feet, head forms. Some women do get abortions when thay are 6 months pregnant, I know one like that. That I don't encourage, You can terminate pregnancy at an earlier stage without any harmful concequences for the mother.

    Responsibility comes at conception - agreed. Thats why a responsible adult will make an educated choice about keeping the child."
    Not necessarily - obviously many people are not responsible for their actions...they kill them off instead.

    IT becomes a child when it has both hands, both feet, and a head? Well it's not that simple: when is it a head? Does it have to have a formed brain? When is the brain formed? I really don't think all these questions can be answered: it cannot be pinpointed down to ANY one moment other than conception.

    I do agree with Lorina: the selfishness is overwhelming at times. Not always, mind you, but it is without a doubt there.

    I've never come into contact with a person who's had an abortion who doesn't regret or worry about it to some degree...they all wonder what could have been. I think it's easy to say that there's nothing wrong with it if you've never had one.

  11. #36
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Quote from Oxford Dictionary:

    abortion - 1 the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy. > the natural expulsion of a fetus from the womb before it is able to survive independently. 2 Biology the arrest of the development of an organ, especially a seed or fruit. 3 Informal, derogatory something imperfect planned or made.

    End of quote.

    -----------------------

    Abortion can be useful at times, but it's just a 'tool'. Abortion itself isn't wrong, only the people who use it CAN be wrong in their decision.

    I'd like to make one thing clear: Some people here said that abortion is murder while it's not. Take a look at the quote above and especially the first meaning: "the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy."

    deliberate

    The child doesn't have any power since it IS nothing. It's brains have yet to take shape and they absolutely can't decide or know anything yet. It takes years to make a 'real' human of this creature.

    What I think is the most ridiculous statement is this one from TWTCommish:

    "By the way: I think a child would rather live in a poor household or with a somewhat distant parent then not live at all."

    This statement made me startle. NOBODY decides about what other people think or do.

    ----------------------------------

    Conclusion: Abortion isn't evil, it's a tool and like all tools, it should be handled carefully.

    Making abortion illegal would be a huge mistake, since it's against the 'rules' of Democracy.
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  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Murder is not against the rules of democracy.

    It is not a "fact" that there's nothing wrong with it - you think it's okay to kill human life, I do not. I challenge you, as I have everyone, to tell me at what point it becomes wrong...when is it too late? You'll find it cannot be pinpointed.

    The child is something - it is turning into a fully grown human being...just as I am now. I'm just farther along.

    This statement made me startle. NOBODY decides about what other people think or do.

    I don't have any idea of what you're talking about...I'm simply saying that a childhood with problems has got to be better than no childhood at all. And even so, you cannot kill off a life because there could be a few speedbumps in life's road...if that happens: where do you draw the line? Killing ugly people or ones more inclined to certain illnesses?

    Bottom line is that you cannot tell me that a fetus is not alive unless YOU can pinpoint it's "turn" into a human accurately...which you can't. Conception, conception, conception! Everything else is confusing and a grey area that no one can be sure of. WHY CHANCE IT?

  13. #38
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    This statement made me startle. NOBODY decides about what other people think or do.

    I don't have any idea of what you're talking about...I'm simply saying that a childhood with problems has got to be better than no childhood at all. And even so, you cannot kill off a life because there could be a few speedbumps in life's road...if that happens: where do you draw the line? Killing ugly people or ones more inclined to certain illnesses?
    [/B]
    What I was implying was that you almost said: "you can better live a miserable life than not exist"

    You think that living is the only thing that counts? You say that people MUST continue living?

    If your dog is suffering and will probably never get back to full health, you (the vet) end its life, so it would be logical to do the same thing for people. I think that it's cruel to keep people who are suffering alive against their will. Therefore I don't think that you can decide that children who'll suffer tremendous pains and horrors in their life will HAVE to live.

    I know a boy who's suffering from cystic fybrosis. Although he has a very nice family and lots of friends, his life is already being overshadowed by the fact that he has to take dozens of pills every day to keep breathing. He knows that he won't get old.

    a site about cystic fybrosis: http://fmf.fwn.rug.nl/~shevek/cf.html

    I'd say: Cure them or spare them!
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  14. #39
    SitePoint Zealot Lorina's Avatar
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    But who's to say what a miserable existance is?

    Hellen Keller was blind, deaf, and couldn't speak. And she lead a remarkable life.

    Someone could be brought up in the lap of luxury with perfect physical health and still be miserable, and someone could be brought up with abusive parents and physical ailments and lead a wonderful life.

    It's entirely ridiculous to say that fetuses get aborted to "save them from trauma." Perhaps in some cases, but very few. The vast majority of abortions are preformed because the would-be parents don't want the hassle.

    Like I said, I'm pro-choice. I don't think abortion should be illegal, but I think anyone getting an abortion should look at it honestly, and know that (in most cases) they're getting the abortion to make their life easier, not to save the child from a "bad life." It's not easy to admit to being selfish. It's much easier to hide behind a "for the good of a child" statement.
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Zealot HotDog's Avatar
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    Isn't it interesting that people are pro-choice after THEY are already born??

    I don't understand this quote:

    "The child doesn't have any power since it IS nothing. It's brains have yet to take shape and they absolutely can't decide or know anything yet. It takes years to make a 'real' human of this creature."

    I'm sure you mean "child" as unborn, but what do you mean by "It takes years to make a 'real' human of this creature."

    I don't want to put words in your mouth, but this statement sounds like you can kill any child until it is "fully developed" and can think and act on its own. I know this isn't what you ment, but I just don't understand the statement.

    A few things I want to point out are first, I question the figures quoted in support of how many women have abortions and how many pregnancies are miscarried. I am an ex-male nurse turned webdesigner (don't ask...long story), and those figures just are not accurate. Yes there are an extreme number of abortions, but to say that 4 out of 10 women have had one is a little out there. Sounds like you get your facts from the same place Al Gore does. Maybe 20%...maybe. I would agree that about 40% of women have had a miscarry, but that's not equal to 2/3s of all pregnancies. Think about it, that's 1 out of every 3. It's closer to 1 in every 10. And it is true that many (not most) can be early enough that the women may not even know she was pregnant. Most miscarries are due to severe problems with the pregnancy.

    I also think it's funny how a woman can have an abortion and it's not considered murder, but if I kill a pregnant woman I can be tried for double homicide. Amazing.

    If I distroy eggs of an endangered species, I will be fined if not have jail time. How pathetic that wild animals, WILD ANIMALS, have more "rights" than humans.

    Right is right how matter how many people don't believe it, and wrong is still wrong no matter how many people do believe it. I fugure if you can crucify Christ, you can rationalize anything.

    Again, how convient to be pro-choice after your've had the opportunity to be born.

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  16. #41
    SitePoint Zealot HotDog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan

    If your dog is suffering and will probably never get back to full health, you (the vet) end its life, so it would be logical to do the same thing for people. I think that it's cruel to keep people who are suffering alive against their will. Therefore I don't think that you can decide that children who'll suffer tremendous pains and horrors in their life will HAVE to live.

    Elledan, animails are animals. They have no rights. They are ANIMALS, not PEOPLE.

    Now don't get me wrong, I in no way believe animal cruelty is alright. But they are animals. You cannot tell me that humans are on the same level they are.

    As I said before, how pathetic that most animals have more rights than we do.
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  17. #42
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Isn't it wonderful to know that the world around us is build up with just atoms? Even our cells are made out of molecules who consist out of atoms like everything around us.

    Looking at the world this way shows you that life is a very interesting chemical reaction and worth to study, but it will also show you that there's no reason why you should preserve yet another lifeform if there are more than enough of that species.

    To help confused Joe: A Human is a 'real' Human as soon as it can decide (rational) on its own life, something of which young children are clearly not capable of.

    To be honest, I pity most Humans since they can't do anything but being selfish and for not being able to cooporate in Society. Selfishness is one of the charactaristics of the Human species.
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  18. #43
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    Originally posted by HotDog
    Isn't it interesting that people are pro-choice after THEY are already born??
    Ha-ha! Do you expect a bunch of cells to have an opinion BEFORE they are born?

  19. #44
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HotDog
    Originally posted by Elledan

    If your dog is suffering and will probably never get back to full health, you (the vet) end its life, so it would be logical to do the same thing for people. I think that it's cruel to keep people who are suffering alive against their will. Therefore I don't think that you can decide that children who'll suffer tremendous pains and horrors in their life will HAVE to live.

    Elledan, animails are animals. They have no rights. They are ANIMALS, not PEOPLE.

    Now don't get me wrong, I in no way believe animal cruelty is alright. But they are animals. You cannot tell me that humans are on the same level they are.

    As I said before, how pathetic that most animals have more rights than we do.
    Maybe you're right, but in my opinion animals don't need to have rights. Nobody beats his pet unless it attacks him, right?

    BTW Humans have clearly more rights than animals, but then I'm only talking about the 'Human rules', since no animal will ever be capable of writing its own rights.

    If we wanted, we could wipe the Earth clean of every mammal and other bigger lifeforms within a millennium.
    We Humans are very well capable of Death and Destruction, but not the opposite.

    If I'd believe in Christianity, I'd rather think that Satan has created the Human species, just to destroy the Earth, than that I'd believe that God had created Humans to preserve the Earth.

    Just my opinion.
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  20. #45
    SitePoint Zealot HotDog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    Isn't it wonderful to know that the world around us is build up with just atoms? Even our cells are made out of molecules who consist out of atoms like everything around us.

    Looking at the world this way shows you that life is a very interesting chemical reaction and worth to study, but it will also show you that there's no reason why you should preserve yet another lifeform if there are more than enough of that species.

    To help confused Joe: A Human is a 'real' Human as soon as it can decide (rational) on its own life, something of which young children are clearly not capable of.

    To be honest, I pity most Humans since they can't do anything but being selfish and for not being able to cooporate in Society. Selfishness is one of the charactaristics of the Human species.
    No Elledan, I pitty you. You've really missed the boat on the meaning and value of life.

    When is a pigeon a pigeon, when it's old enough to fly over and take a dump on your car??

    Originally posted by temis
    Ha-ha! Do you expect a bunch of cells to have an opinion BEFORE they are born?
    What the hell you talking about?? If your are going to make a comment about something I said, at least have a point that's understandable.
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  21. #46
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Joe, could you be so kind to explain 'the meaning and value of life' to me, if you think that you know it better?
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  22. #47
    SitePoint Zealot HotDog's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    To be honest, I pity most Humans since they can't do anything but being selfish and for not being able to cooporate in Society. Selfishness is one of the charactaristics of the Human species.
    At least we agree on one thing....And how selfish to think of only your "Womans Rights" than your unborn "non-human cuz I can't yet physically tell you not to kill me."
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    First off, HOT DOG,
    dont be so hot, and try to show some courtesy. This thread has been peaceful so far....

    Second, in regards to your reply to me: you said *after* they are born. I made it a poi9nt, that one has to be born before having an opinion. Still uinclear? sorry...

    Third, a woman does have rights that come before rights of an unborn baby. Like I said before, if you decide to get an abortion, its ok at early stages, but, per se, past 5 months it might be a problem... Being a woman, I dont want to be dictated what to do with my life. I want to be able to make choices. Call me selfish if you want. In some cases selfishness is good. Selflessness can lead to trouble.

  24. #49
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    well, its been nice participating, but it reminds me of the creation vs. evolution thread. I'll listen to what all you have to say...

    Have awonderful day

  25. #50
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    Like I use to say: Why saving a baby's life if there are being born about 3 babies a second?

    There is already a huge population of Humans on this planet and I think that with more than 6 billion people this Earth is already stuffed enough.

    Call me crude, but when I hear that in some terrible accident hundreds of people have died, I only shrug.

    I'm not crude, I'm not mean, I don't hate the Human species. I'm just trying to be so rational as possible and if anyone disagrees with my view on this life: Alas.
    www.nyanko.ws - My web-, software- and game development company.
    www.mayaposch.com - My personal site and blog.


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