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  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Abortion: Your Opinions.

    I'm asking for trouble, but...

    I'm strongly pro-life. Before any pro-choicers hit the REPLY button, please hear why:

    1 - Life has to begin at some point...conception is the only point that makes sense to me. I can't think of any other way, since there's no other way to pinpoint it to one individual second.

    2 - Don't do the "crime" if you can't...uh...give birth. Babies can be given up for adoption easily...in fact I think there should be such shelters dedicated to just that...no questions asked...they just accept the children.

    3 - No matter what you believe, there is OBVIOUSLY a chance that it truly is "alive" say, half way through the pregnancy...why take the chance? To avoid any "inconvienence"?

    4 - Not really a point...just saying that I DEARLY hope no one here favors partial-birth abortion. I won't even describe it here...if you want to know about it email me...

    Any thoughts? Let's try to keep it civil and respectful...don't mean we can't politely debate though.

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I'm pro choice and I've argued about it a lot before.

    1 - Life has to begin at some point...conception is the only point that makes sense to me. I can't think of any other way, since there's no other way to pinpoint it to one individual second.
    There's no doubt that life begins... even before conception, but something isn't a human until it's born. (Remember citizenship is based on where you're born, not where you're conceived)

    2 - Don't do the "crime" if you can't...uh...give birth. Babies can be given up for adoption easily...in fact I think there should be such shelters dedicated to just that...no questions asked...they just accept the children.
    At the moment babies are quickly adopted. But what happens when you flood the market? And what about all the older kids that nobody wants to adopt because everybody wants to adopt a baby? Not everybody who has an abortion "did the crime", so to speak. What about rape or incest?

    3 - No matter what you believe, there is OBVIOUSLY a chance that it truly is "alive" say, half way through the pregnancy...why take the chance? To avoid any "inconvienence"?
    It's alive, but it's not a human being. I would hardly call a child an inconvenience. More like a lifelong committment.

    4 - Not really a point...just saying that I DEARLY hope no one here favors partial-birth abortion. I won't even describe it here...if you want to know about it email me...
    Well, considering it is a procedure that protects the health of the mother, I think it's quite wrong to put the life of the fetus over the well being of the mother. In fact the Supreme court recently ruled that states can't make "PBA"s illegal because it would deny some women health and safety.

    Actually, the term "Partial Birth Abortion" was invented by pro-life groups.

    Personally, I would DEARLY hope that nobody here would have to get an abortion in a back alley because all the safe places had been shut down.

    I have a lot more where that came from.

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR

    There's no doubt that life begins... even before conception, but something isn't a human until it's born. (Remember citizenship is based on where you're born, not where you're conceived)

    Well then tell me when it is human. If it's alive, it's human to me. Here's my direct question to you: at what SECOND does it become a human being? When does it become wrong? I'd love to know.


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    At the moment babies are quickly adopted. But what happens when you flood the market? And what about all the older kids that nobody wants to adopt because everybody wants to adopt a baby? Not everybody who has an abortion "did the crime", so to speak. What about rape or incest?
    Rape or incest may be exceptions...I'm not referring to those. I seriously doubt the market would be flooded. We do have orphanges as well...much better than not living at all I'd say.


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    It's alive, but it's not a human being. I would hardly call a child an inconvenience. More like a lifelong committment.
    If it's alive, and not a human, then what is it? I revert to my earlier question: when does it become a human? And yes, a child OUGHT to be a lifelong committment...for some it's something that gets in the way and is disposed of...


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    Well, considering it is a procedure that protects the health of the mother, I think it's quite wrong to put the life of the fetus over the well being of the mother. In fact the Supreme court recently ruled that states can't make "PBA"s illegal because it would deny some women health and safety.
    I'm not referring to something that is done to protect the mother. There are some (even one is too many) that are done just because it wasn't gotten around to earlier enough...as a Christian, I think the woman should give birth almost every time...but I will not argue that since it's from a Christians perspective and won't "apply" to everyone here.


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    Actually, the term "Partial Birth Abortion" was invented by pro-life groups.
    When a baby is partially born, and then aborted...it's a partial-birth abortion. Makes sense to me.


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    Personally, I would DEARLY hope that nobody here would have to get an abortion in a back alley because all the safe places had been shut down.
    I hope so too...in fact, I hope they don't have it anywhere.


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    I have a lot more where that came from.
    Fine by me, just want an answer to my main question first. No matter who you are, there is a strong case to be made for taking responsibility for your actions. Take a freaking pill, and you're safe! Geez...there's no exscuse for not planning ahead and putting yourself in that situation.

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    ********* Evangelist
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    This thread is easily going to get pretty heated -- and fast. It was only a matter of time though. As long as it is kept civil it is going to be an interesting ride...

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I suppose so - I had a feeling Martin would reply first.

    You gonna drop a line on the subject, Eric?

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish


    Well then tell me when it is human. If it's alive, it's human to me. Here's my direct question to you: at what SECOND does it become a human being? When does it become wrong? I'd love to know.
    When it's born.

    Rape or incest may be exceptions...I'm not referring to those. I seriously doubt the market would be flooded. We do have orphanges as well...much better than not living at all I'd say.
    If you make an exception for rape or incest, you'll have a lot more cases of rape and incest springing up all over the place. Most of them will probably be false accusations.

    If it's alive, and not a human, then what is it? I revert to my earlier question: when does it become a human? And yes, a child OUGHT to be a lifelong committment...for some it's something that gets in the way and is disposed of...
    It's a fetus. It becomes a human when it can live without being in a parasitical relationship to the mother, ie after it is born.

    I'm not referring to something that is done to protect the mother. There are some (even one is too many) that are done just because it wasn't gotten around to earlier enough...as a Christian, I think the woman should give birth almost every time...but I will not argue that since it's from a Christians perspective and won't "apply" to everyone here.
    The world can't be perfect. But it's better to have the ones that aren't done for the health of the mother than to deprive the mother of the right to health.

    When a baby is partially born, and then aborted...it's a partial-birth abortion. Makes sense to me.
    The fetus isn't partially born, at least not naturally and would never survive on it's own outside of the womb without man made aids.

    Fine by me, just want an answer to my main question first. No matter who you are, there is a strong case to be made for taking responsibility for your actions. Take a freaking pill, and you're safe! Geez...there's no exscuse for not planning ahead and putting yourself in that situation.
    I hope you're not implying that birth control is always effective, because it fails quite often in fact.

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    ********* Evangelist
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    Ah, maybe I will... waiting to see how it develops first. Like I said, it is sure going to get interesting.

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    I am pro-choice. I am too tired to debate on why I have decided that, but I usually agree with LuZeR's comments, so just listen to him

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Just for the record, I don't get emotional regarding the abortion debate, even if it seems like it.

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    When it's born.
    And when is that? Are you saying that as soon as the imbilical cord is cut, it's alive...but right before the cord is cut, it's NOT?

    Are you saying, perhaps, that while it's just been pushed out of the mother's stomach, it's alive...but just 5 seconds before, it WASN'T?


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    If you make an exception for rape or incest, you'll have a lot more cases of rape and incest springing up all over the place. Most of them will probably be false accusations.
    I don't see why - why would a rapist be concerned with what the mother does with the baby? If he's raping her, I don't think it matters to him. Even so, I stand by my statement and think it's far better than allowing abortion to go on.

    Originally posted by LuZeR
    It's a fetus. It becomes a human when it can live without being in a parasitical relationship to the mother, ie after it is born.
    But that varies for every child...many die unexpectedly and many live through amazing adversity...that, too, cannot be nailed down at all. I also don't think that a tiny little baby hooked up to a machine trying to live is not "truly" alive if it ends up dying, even though it "couldn't live without the mother."


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    The world can't be perfect. But it's better to have the ones that aren't done for the health of the mother than to deprive the mother of the right to health.
    Like I said, from a secular standpoint you're right: the mother should always be allowed an abortion if her health is in danger...which is why I said that I wouldn't use that argument, even though I believe in it.


    Originally posted by LuZeR
    The fetus isn't partially born, at least not naturally and would never survive on it's own outside of the womb without man made aids.
    At times it is partially born. Granted, it's not too common, but it does happen...and it's terrible.

    Originally posted by LuZeR
    I hope you're not implying that birth control is always effective, because it fails quite often in fact.
    Not always, but plenty. I'd be willing to bet most abortions stem from people just not being careful. I can't back that up with stats, it's just my view and take on things.

    I used to get fairly emotional over things like this...but I've realized it does no good. I get involved and "into" it...but I usually do a good job of not letting it effect day-to-day workings and such...however this issue, if any, would be an exception. Obviously you can see that if abortion IS the killing of a child, then it's the biggest problem we face. That might help illustrate my seriousness on the subject.


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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    And when is that? Are you saying that as soon as the imbilical cord is cut, it's alive...but right before the cord is cut, it's NOT?
    Birth is when the head emerges from the birth canal.

    Are you saying, perhaps, that while it's just been pushed out of the mother's stomach, it's alive...but just 5 seconds before, it WASN'T?
    First of all, it's not pushed out of the mother's stomach. It comes from the womb. It is alive, but until it's born (head emerges from birth canal) it's not a human being.

    I don't see why - why would a rapist be concerned with what the mother does with the baby? If he's raping her, I don't think it matters to him. Even so, I stand by my statement and think it's far better than allowing abortion to go on.
    I think you misunderstood. What I'm saying is that if you say abortion is OK for victims of rape, then if a girl wants
    an abortion bad enough she'll say she was raped even if she wasn't. Another problem is that it's irrelevant to the fetus how it was conceived. Why should a fetus conceived in a rape have fewer rights than one not conceived in a rape?

    But that varies for every child...many die unexpectedly and many live through amazing adversity...that, too, cannot be nailed down at all. I also don't think that a tiny little baby hooked up to a machine trying to live is not "truly" alive if it ends up dying, even though it "couldn't live without the mother."
    I don't see your point here.

    Like I said, from a secular standpoint you're right: the mother should always be allowed an abortion if her health is in danger...which is why I said that I wouldn't use that argument, even though I believe in it.
    Actually some religions, Judaism for example, mandate abortion in some circumstances.

    At times it is partially born. Granted, it's not too common, but it does happen...and it's terrible.
    I don't know of any cases where a woman who was in labor had an abortion.

    Not always, but plenty. I'd be willing to bet most abortions stem from people just not being careful. I can't back that up with stats, it's just my view and take on things.
    Most abortions are by married women in their 20's.

    "Democracy is participation in power" - Cicero

    The way I see it, making abortion illegal is anti-democracy.
    Not to mention that making abortion illegal will actually result in more abortions.

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    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    My first baby died on my birthday when she was born at 22 weeks gestation. Grace Caroline weighed less than a pound. As my wife held our dying baby in her hands, she said, "I don't see how God could..." In my mind I finished her sentence, "...let my baby die." Instead she said, "...give up his Son to die for us. I could never do that. He must really love us."

    My second baby lived when she was born at 28 weeks gestation. Mary Margaret weighed 2.5 pounds at birth. She is now 2.5 years old.

    My friends tried for about eight years to get pregnant and saw lots of doctors. They finally decided to adopt. Their baby was born with a hole in his heart and lived eight days. They kept trying to get pregnant, and now she is pretty far along with twins.

    I'm not in favor of abortion for any reason. My guess is that most people who are pro-choice haven't held their dying babies in their hands.
    Jim Lewis
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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    That's quite an emotional story, though I don't know what it has to do with abortion.

    My guess is that most people who are pro life haven't faced the prospect of having to keep an unwanted child, whether their reasons are due to finances, drug/alcohol use, immaturity, emotional state, fear or anything else.

    I knew a guy who was 100% pro life to the point of calling pro choice people 'Nazis' and comparing abortion clinics to the holocaust. Then one day his underage girlfriend got pregnant after their condom broke. He very quickly became pro choice.

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    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    I will just say that I am against abortion for almost the same reason.

    Six Years ago, my second son was diagnosed as having irregular brain development at 20 weeks gestation. There was no cerebellum. His life expectancy after birth was estimated to be 5 minutes. Of course the doctor said that the baby would live until birth because until then the brainstem could handle everything.

    My ex-wife and I were given two choices...

    1. Carry the baby til term and prepare for a funeral.
    2. Abort the baby.

    Being naive and young, we chose option #2 after much thought and deliberation. It was the hardest decision we ever made. It was a decision that ultimately destroyed our marriage. It was a decision that has my ex-wife on mood altering drugs to this day to deal with depression. It was a decision that totally changes your sense of value, morality and life.

    We were really scared when we found out she was pregnant with my daughter. This was 5 years ago. We made sure that every test known to mankind to test for birth defects was run including an Amniocentesis. Turned out my daughter is perfect (Just ask her. )

    I am personally against abortion and my story is the only thing I can use against it. I will not force my views on others though and respect a woman's right to choose. I do tell my story to people I know though and if it makes a difference then so be it. I will not condemn a woman for making their own choice. No matter how you look at it there are too many neglected children in this world and by forcing women not ready to have children to carry babies to term will only create more. So what is the right answer? If it were black and white things would be easier but the world is made of shades of gray.

    p.s. You guys really need to stop making my job hard with all these inflammatory topics
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    I don't necessarily agree with abortion, but I know that making it illegal would cause more harm than good therefore I am pro choice. I don't think I'll be saying any more on this topic. Good day.

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    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    Luzer--> Thanks. You made my point. You've never lost a child. If you had, I think it would completely change your attitude about abortion.

    BTW, my family has had to deal with unplanned pregancies.

    Anytime you have sex, there is a chance you'll get pregnant. If you don't like the chance, pull up your pants. That sounds pretty flippant, but it actually works. If you choose to have sex anyhow, live up to your responsibility if all doesn't go as planned.

    Do you know how my wife and I avoided it? We waited until we were married to have sex. I was 28, and she was 27; somehow we survived. She was smart. I was just blessed with watching my family members go through unplanned pregnancies.

    [Edited by jamesglewisf on 09-21-2000 at 07:38 AM]
    Jim Lewis
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    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    wluke,

    I'm really sorry for you. My wife and I sat through weeks of group counseling sessions at our hospital. We met many people with your same experience. I wish the doctors who advise such things would have couples talk to other ones that have been devestated by it. At least you would have been able to make a better-informed decision.
    Jim Lewis
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    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    Isn't discussion fun? I always enjoy a good debate. Even a heated one. Alas, it's past my bedtime. See you later.

    [Edited by jamesglewisf on 09-21-2000 at 07:35 AM]
    Jim Lewis
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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuZeR
    My guess is that most people who are pro life haven't faced the prospect of having to keep an unwanted child, whether their reasons are due to finances, drug/alcohol use, immaturity, emotional state, fear or anything else.

    I knew a guy who was 100% pro life to the point of calling pro choice people 'Nazis' and comparing abortion clinics to the holocaust. Then one day his underage girlfriend got pregnant after their condom broke. He very quickly became pro choice.
    My family consists of 3 siblings and 4-step siblings, with a 5th on the way. I'm pretty sure that most were unplanned, but loved anyway. In this family, no child is "unwanted", but I'm sure that for at least one of them, it came at a "bad" time, either financially or otherwise. More people know the feeling that you may realize...they just dont consider abortion to be an option.

    Sounds like that guy was nuts...but I hope you can see it from both sides: an experience the opposite of what that guy had happen to him could quickly turn someone like yourself into an avid-pro-lifer.

    Also, concerning birth: are you now saying that when the head is shown, it's a human, but just several seconds before, it was not? Even though the only difference was whether or not its head was out in the open?

    Wayne and James: your stories are very sad, and I dearly hope that my bringing up this topic has not caused you any excessive amount of grieving. I don't know if it helps at all, but both of you will be in my prayers tonight...


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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish

    My family consists of 3 siblings and 4-step siblings, with a 5th on the way. I'm pretty sure that most were unplanned, but loved anyway. In this family, no child is "unwanted", but I'm sure that for at least one of them, it came at a "bad" time, either financially or otherwise. More people know the feeling that you may realize...they just dont consider abortion to be an option.
    Well, not everybody is like you.

    Also, concerning birth: are you now saying that when the head is shown, it's a human, but just several seconds before, it was not? Even though the only difference was whether or not its head was out in the open?
    It's always human, in the same sense that my hair is human. But it is not a human being until it is born. When do you propose it becomes a human being?

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Not everyone, but as I said: I think there are more people like that than you realize.

    I propose that it is both alive and basically human at conception. It is not a human being per se, but it is absolutely alive, and that makes killing it wrong.

    Obviously you're against an abortion during the very end of the pregnancy (I think so at least...seems obvious), but that brings up yet another question: at what moment does it become "too late" or "wrong" to abort the child? It must happen...and when you reply, I must reply again with why its okay to abort it then, but not one second earlier.

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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Not everyone, but as I said: I think there are more people like that than you realize.
    And most of them don't have abortions. But lot's of women do (something like 40% of women have had one).

    I propose that it is both alive and basically human at conception. It is not a human being per se, but it is absolutely alive, and that makes killing it wrong.
    I think sperm and eggs are alive, they are also human. I don't think it's wrong to kill them. Is killing germs and viruses wrong? They are absolutely alive.

    Obviously you're against an abortion during the very end of the pregnancy (I think so at least...seems obvious), but that brings up yet another question: at what moment does it become "too late" or "wrong" to abort the child? It must happen...and when you reply, I must reply again with why its okay to abort it then, but not one second earlier.
    It's too late once the woman goes into labor, since at that point birth is pretty much inevitable. At conception, chances are the woman will miscarry, 2/3 of all pregnancies miscarry... a "natural" abortion shall we say? So, God personally aborts 2/3 of all pregnancies. Most the time the woman doesn't even know she was pregnant.

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    God does not abort anything...it simply does not work. A shame, yes, but "abortion" is the wrong word, seeing what it implies and all.

    "I think sperm and eggs are alive, they are also human. I don't think it's wrong to kill them. Is killing germs and viruses wrong? They are absolutely alive."

    No, it's not wrong...I don't have a problem with killing a germ or an animal or an insect basically, with reasonable exceptions. I'm talking about humans: it's HUMAN life that cannot be harmed. Sperm and eggs are not life - they have the potential to be...this goes back to my point about conception...

    Sperm has part of what is necessary to create a living being...same with the eggs...however one without the other is useless...when the two meet, a child is slowly, but surely, beginning to be created. This is why conception has to be when life starts...anything else has too many holes in it.

    As for going into labor - so its okay to abort the baby beforehand? Doesn't it vary from pregnancy to pregnancy? Seems like too much of a grey area to even take chances with! There is a possibility here that we're killing millions upon millions of children (30 million total at least as of the mid-1990s), that alone ought to tell us to err on the side of safety. Why take the chance with their lives?

    I don't have doubts about my stance on abortion, but I do find that all I have to do is think about how different the world might be if those 30 million people were walking around...that always makes me passionate on the subject all over again.


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    SitePoint Zealot Lars's Avatar
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    I thind this debate more annoying than the "Creation Vs. Evolution" Thread.

    I don't really have an opinion about abortion because every individual I discuss it with has a different point of view.

    I think it's 100% up to women, but if I should choose between a funeral and abortion, I would go for abortion. It's very sad to hear Wayne, but life most go on even if you are knee deep in s***.

    And I know what it is to loose a real human being! I lost my mother approximately one Month ago in one of the most horrible ways you can think of.... Yes suicide. You can guess which job she had as she helped women delivering babys, and she whas one of the best in the area of it, which I have heard from her co workers. I won't explain how and what happened but I saw her my self.

  25. #25
    @russellg RussellG's Avatar
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    It is 110% the womens choice whether she wants to keep the baby.

    If I was married, I would let my wife make the decision, she would be the one who would have to go through with it, not me.
    russell.cz.cc - coming soon (I promise!)


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