Moral Dilema: My Company Doesn't Know A Thing About Standards

[ChipOManiac]

So I'm an intern , and I'm pretty happy that I got the chance. Basically it's the IT wing of one of the biggest companies in my country.

But I've faced a certain moral dilemma during the past few days that's keeping me edgy.

Lets take it this way: I'm basically a self taught person when it comes to Web-Design. When it comes to marking up pages and writing style sheets, I do it all according to standards. I've done the bad and ugly, learned from it, and have improved my self continuously.

For now in this company, I'm under the supervision of one of their web-designers who has been with the company for a while, and has worked in the industry for quite some time (several years I guess). There's another "Associate Web-Designer" that works as well, she's been in the industry for quite some time too and in a "respected" web-design company.

My problem: neither of them know anything about web standards. To quote a few they do:

1. Using divs instead of p, h*, and virtually everything, and saying that it's not a problem if they do that.
2. saying that nesting lists is wrong.
3. telling me to use a divs where I could have just used the semantically correct ul.
4. they use tables for layout.
5. using the br tag where they could just use p

I'm not even sure that I'm right anymore.

So just to ask, what should I do?

1. Shut up and bend to their rules
2. Or tell them that they're wrong (Remember these are people who have been in the industry)

Or am I wrong?

PS. I've realized the hard way that I don't have the creative edge that a web designer needs, most of the designs that I do are simplistic, so I don't really think I'll be pursuing a career in this.

[markbrown4]

The best thing to do is to code things properly and simply say there's a better way if they question it.
If you can do that without being an overbearing know it all they'll adopt it and you will have helped.

[ChipOManiac]

The best thing to do is to code things properly and simply say there's a better way if they question it.
If you can do that without being an overbearing know it all they'll adopt it and you will have helped.

I hope I didn't sound like an overbearing know it all did I?

[markbrown4]

No, you didn't. It's just easy to come across that way without meaning to, especially when talking about something like standards. I know I have in the past

I would never work for a company that didn't want me to challenge them when they do something badly.

[ChipOManiac]

No, you didn't. It's just easy to come across that way without meaning to. I know I have in the past

I would never work for a company that didn't want me to challenge them when they do something badly.

Phew, what a relief! The last thing I want is to sound like I'm a whining little idiot.

I guess what you suggested is the best way, but despite my attempts to code well and bring it to their attention, they've been pretty indifferent about my code, they don't question it. Should I tell them there's a better way politely?

That being said, thanks for your thoughts I appreciate it!

[markbrown4]

Those 5 points I would raise when they're appropriate, I wouldn't start by saying You're WRONG!

Raise something when you see it done badly or are asked to change your code, e.g. explain why <br>'s for spacing is wrong because you might want to change the space between paragraphs and with <br>'s you can't do that.

People produce better things when people disagree and are open to discussion.
The worst things are produced when no-one questions or challenges and just does what they are told.
Humor can help keep these discussions free of anger.
There's no one right way, sometimes just flat out telling someone it's wrong is appropriate.

But I've faced a certain moral dilemma during the past few days that's keeping me edgy.

If you can make your case and create positive change you will have learned the valuable skill of persuasion.
Try something with a level head. If it doesn't work try something else.

Wanting to produce something better is a worthy pursuit.

[ChipOManiac]

Those 5 points I would raise when they're appropriate, I wouldn't start by saying You're WRONG!

I understand

Raise something when you see it done badly or are asked to change your code, e.g. explain why <br>'s for spacing is wrong because you might want to change the space between paragraphs and with <br>'s you can't do that.

People produce better things when people disagree and are open to discussion.
The worst things are produced when no-one questions or challenges and just does what they are told.
Humor can help keep these discussions free of anger.
There's no one right way, sometimes just flat out telling someone it's wrong is appropriate.


If you can make your case and create positive change you will have learned the valuable skill of persuasion.
Try something with a level head. If it doesn't work try something else.

Wanting to produce something better is a worthy pursuit.

I really do want to help them, since they've got the creative edge that's so needed in this profession, so I will try to get them to improve while keeping the things you said in mind. Thanks for helping me our MarkBrown4 !

(Sorry for the late reply, lightning storm here)

[ralph.m]

I agree with Mark here. Code the best way you can, and if they tell you to change it, be honest and tell them you can't do that, because it is just the wrong thing to do. If they are worth a cracker, they'll respect that, and wake up to their shortcomings.

[TechnoBear]

You might want to keep an eye out for suitable references/articles to back up your point of view. Then if somebody queries your approach, you can say "Well I've been reading about it and this seems like the way forward. There's a good article here, if you'd like to read it for yourself." That way, they can kid themselves that they learnt the right techniques from respected industry sources, rather than have to admit that the intern knows more than they do.

[aaarrrggh]

So I'm an intern , and I'm pretty happy that I got the chance. Basically it's the IT wing of one of the biggest companies in my country.

But I've faced a certain moral dilemma during the past few days that's keeping me edgy.

Lets take it this way: I'm basically a self taught person when it comes to Web-Design. When it comes to marking up pages and writing style sheets, I do it all according to standards. I've done the bad and ugly, learned from it, and have improved my self continuously.

For now in this company, I'm under the supervision of one of their web-designers who has been with the company for a while, and has worked in the industry for quite some time (several years I guess). There's another "Associate Web-Designer" that works as well, she's been in the industry for quite some time too and in a "respected" web-design company.

My problem: neither of them know anything about web standards. To quote a few they do:

1. Using divs instead of p, h*, and virtually everything, and saying that it's not a problem if they do that.
2. saying that nesting lists is wrong.
3. telling me to use a divs where I could have just used the semantically correct ul.
4. they use tables for layout.
5. using the br tag where they could just use p

I'm not even sure that I'm right anymore.

So just to ask, what should I do?

1. Shut up and bend to their rules
2. Or tell them that they're wrong (Remember these are people who have been in the industry)

Or am I wrong?

PS. I've realized the hard way that I don't have the creative edge that a web designer needs, most of the designs that I do are simplistic, so I don't really think I'll be pursuing a career in this.

You're correct and they are wrong.

Honestly, my advice would be to find another job somewhere else. Working there is only going to hold you back. I can't stand working with people who are happy with sloppy and/or sub-standard work. Start looking around for something better. That's my advice to you.

[felgall]

Why not run various pages through the W3C validator and print off the error reports and just leave them laying around where they might be noticed. If you do it for pages where you have to make changes and make sure that there are no errors in the part you changed then if they ask about the reports you can simply say that you were checking that your changes didn't add anything into the page that wasn't HTML - since the validator simply tests if the tags are valid HTML or not.

[ChipOManiac]

Why not run various pages through the W3C validator and print off the error reports and just leave them laying around where they might be noticed. If you do it for pages where you have to make changes and make sure that there are no errors in the part you changed then if they ask about the reports you can simply say that you were checking that your changes didn't add anything into the page that wasn't HTML - since the validator simply tests if the tags are valid HTML or not.

Believe me I tried that, and it doesn't work because they're using the right tags in completely wrong ways. It's valid HTML, but semantic rubbish. They brushed me off when I said that heading tags were for structuring the content. And besides, the div instead of ul is too stupid even for the validator to notice.

Nevertheless, thank you for your thoughts.

I would recommend that you approach this situation very delicately – that is if you would like to keep your job.

I have shown my despair of their abusing standards (via groans, and facepalms). I am (and they know it) a very honest and open guy. The reason I have kept shut up is because they're "superior" to me, and the last thing I want to be is right and be called a Heretic.

However, the lead designer (and the guy who chose me for the internship) seems to have a little faith in me, so I might have some hope there.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Of course, if they force me to write non-standard code, my job wouldn't matter much.

[oddz]

I would recommend that you approach this situation very delicately – that is if you would like to keep your job.

The fact of the mater is that you are the bottom of totem pole. As an intern you probably aren't even on the totem pole. Therefore, no one is likely to take you seriously. That is unless you come off extremely confident and have facts to back up what you are saying. However, this will not guarantee any results. The thing you really have working against you is your position. That might be impossible to overcome dependent on how confident you have been the whole way through. If you have been coming off shy when confronted than chances are you won't be able to recover because you will have already formed an impression that you don't really believe in what you are saying.

The fact that you asking here whether certain practices are "correct" or not leads be to believe that you have come off uncertain to your superiors. Thus are going to have a very difficult time convincing them otherwise. Therefore, I would recommend to start looking for a new job because you are unlikely to change anything. Politics plays a significant role in this. Politics that you can't overcome unless you have seniority, are liked or have formed an image in others mind that you know what you are talking about which doesn't seem so.

The key to having people embrace new ideas is believing in what you are saying and having extreme confidence in it. Lacking that your thoughts will be nothing more than background noise. Especially when compared to people with a high level seniority over you that have been with a company for much longer amounts of time. I have seen it time and time again. In office setting seniority and confidence matters more than correctness of information. You can have the dumbest idea but if delivered well with extreme confidence with a little seniority to back you up people will embrace it. That is the way it works.

[aaarrrggh]

I would recommend that you approach this situation very delicately – that is if you would like to keep your job.

The fact of the mater is that you are the bottom of totem pole. As an intern you probably aren't even on the totem pole. Therefore, no one is likely to take you seriously. That is unless you come off extremely confident and have facts to back up what you are saying. However, this will not guarantee any results. The thing you really have working against you is your position. That might be impossible to overcome dependent on how confident you have been the whole way through. If you have been coming off shy when confronted than chances are you won't be able to recover because you will have already formed an impression that you don't really believe in what you are saying.

The fact that you asking here whether certain practices are "correct" or not leads be to believe that you have come off uncertain to your superiors. Thus are going to have a very difficult time convincing them otherwise. Therefore, I would recommend to start looking for a new job because you are unlikely to change anything. Politics plays a significant role in this. Politics that you can't overcome unless you have seniority, are liked or have formed an image in others mind that you know what you are talking about which doesn't seem so.

The key to having people embrace new ideas is believing in what you are saying and having extreme confidence in it. Lacking that your thoughts will be nothing more than background noise. Especially when compared to people with a high level seniority over you that have been with a company for much longer amounts of time. I have seen it time and time again. In office setting seniority and confidence matters more than correctness of information. You can have the dumbest idea but if delivered well with extreme confidence with a little seniority to back you up people will embrace it. That is the way it works.

Extremely well written and you should take heed of his advice.

When I was first starting out a fair few years ago now, I *knew* some of the code I was looking at that I'd inherited from "senior" developers was poorly written, but I was so low on confidence (for whatever reason), that I didn't really hold enough authority to put my points forward. Over time I proved that my code was better than theirs and eventually managed to get promoted within that company. However, in the job I now have, I respect my own ability enough to consider myself something of an authority figure, and people seem to respond to that confidence with respect.

Having said that, I'd still always consider another person's opinion on something, especially if it can improve a system I'm working on in any way.

So much of this stuff is about confidence and how you come across, and some of this will come to you over time.

[xhtmlcoder]

Obviously they have never heard of Screen Readers or even understand the basic semantics of markup or even how a Search Engine would view and weight the page. Let alone Separation of Concerns. If they are misusing TABLE for layout they are allowing themselves to get into a inflexible maintenance nightmare.

[ChipOManiac]

Obviously they have never heard of Screen Readers or even understand the basic semantics of markup or even how a Search Engine would view and weight the page. Let alone Separation of Concerns. If they are misusing TABLE for layout they are allowing themselves to get into a inflexible maintenance nightmare.

I tried to explain screen readers to them. Their reply: "Who cares about them?"

[xhtmlcoder]

The people who "care" are those that use or require them. Ask those clueless guys if they; "Enjoy surfing the web with their monitors switched off?" As obviously they don't need them; "Who cares about web masters that need monitors?". >;-)

Approximately 3% of e-commerce consumers are visually impaired, or otherwise require the use of a screen reader to read text on a screen.

For an e-commerce site with 10,000 visitors per month, then, at least 300 of them are likely using some form of a screen reader - maybe this company enjoys discriminating against their visitors? It's not just people who need AT that benefit from a well structured site.

Sri Lanka Government departments and agencies are required by the Protection of the Rights of Persons with Disabilities Act. No.28 of 1996 to ensure that online information and services are accessible by people with disabilities. So it's not like there aren't some web accessibly laws in place in the country.

[ChipOManiac]

Sri Lanka Government departments and agencies are required by the Protection of the Rights of Persons with Disabilities Act. No.28 of 1996 to ensure that online information and services are accessible by people with disabilities. So it's not like there aren't some web accessibly laws in place in the country.

Wow! Even I didn't know that, guess I could use this, thanks.

Hi,

It does seem tough.

Have you taken the angle that increasingly Search Engines are penalizing page rank in organic searches if the mark-up is semantically incorrect - for example overuse of DIVs, improper use of Heading tags ... (the list goes on).

I do think that search engines are now searching in that way, but I doubt they'd see the light. But still thanks for your thoughts.

I am so much happier where I am now, where best practices, industry standard web dev techniques and design patterns are used all the time. If you have the choice, quit the job. It sounds like they aren't going to see your point of view however you put it.

I do have the choice, and if they still don't see to any reason, then I might as well transfer my position. Thank you.

Designers that appreciate and understand the importance of balancing the two are hard to come by. More often than not that is the reason most engineering companies have a front-end developer – to keep the designer true to the technology and write proper front-end code. Though you seem like your stuck in a environment where technical quality isn't important and for that I don't what to say besides hit the road.

Here I don't think front-end development was much of an issue until recently, the higher management wants to do everything to standards but don't know anything about it, and neither do the ones who implement it.

i see, well gentle arguing is whats left then i guess.
or even better: trying to find a new job

anyway: dont give up on the standards =)

Don't worry I won't give up the standards!

[Lieto]

I can imagine someone telling me that i should do outdated designs, i would probably freak out
Also, i am quite happy that more and more people starting to realize that designers shouldnt do front end. Moreover some designers are ux / ui, some are creative, some are illustrators... wow, thats an awesome world.

[Lieto]

If they use "simple/stupid" because they dont know how to use "smart/correct" — you are in trouble =/
Delicate approach wont work if they simply dont know what they are doing and are not willing to learn.

That is unless you come off extremely confident and have facts to back up what you are saying

Thing is that he is coming to a senior telling him that the guy is wrong and should learn to do his job better. How can that go good? I am pretty sure that those seniors are aware that they use outdated technics so to say.

I would approach it from the side of "let me please do the whole project the way i am doing it and then if you dont like the result i can do your way and we can see which one loads faster / easier to correct / whatever".

[aaarrrggh]

If they use "simple/stupid" because they dont know how to use "smart/correct" — you are in trouble =/
Delicate approach wont work if they simply dont know what they are doing and are not willing to learn.


Thing is that he is coming to a senior telling him that the guy is wrong and should learn to do his job better. How can that go good? I am pretty sure that those seniors are aware that they use outdated technics so to say.

I would approach it from the side of "let me please do the whole project the way i am doing it and then if you dont like the result i can do your way and we can see which one loads faster / easier to correct / whatever".

I disagree with this, because the inevitable result is: "Ok, we don't like the way you did it. Go back and do it our way now like you promised".

[Lieto]

Load time and compatibility would be a solid argument vs their "dislike".

[aaarrrggh]

Load time and compatibility would be a solid argument vs their "dislike".

Nah not really, because the load time differences in reality would be negligible (most likely, unless they're not compressing images and not minifying javascript and css etc).

For people who refuse to learn new standards, I doubt a few seconds difference on a page load would make any difference anyway.

It is also possible in theory that writing the site to be standards compliant would actually add to the load time, depending on the context.

[Lieto]

i see, well gentle arguing is whats left then i guess.
or even better: trying to find a new job

anyway: dont give up on the standards =)

[ServerStorm]

Hi,

It does seem tough.

Have you taken the angle that increasingly Search Engines are penalizing page rank in organic searches if the mark-up is semantically incorrect - for example overuse of DIVs, improper use of Heading tags ... (the list goes on).

Reinforce this idea with we can't control how restrictive and penalizing Search Engines will become with semantic enforcement - there is a transition to stronger enforcement - but we can become more semantic in the way we do things so we don't have to deal with massive changes in the future.

You add that increasingly governments are legislating more rigorious standards for companies that do business with them, so moving forward you may be restricted in where you can get business unless you become good with accessibility standards and symantic markup.

Regards,
Steve