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  1. #26
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Alright! And I thought Jeremy was going to get away with playing all innocent on me

    See that's the real issue. If one of us writes an article about "such and such" in PHP or develops a class / PHP extension and releases it as open source, they've giving to a project that does not have the primary aim to extracting cash from it's users bank balances.

    If we do the same for .NET, we are working for Microsoft, but for free. We're promoting their technologies and encouraging other developers to add their contribution to the Bill Benevolent Fund. What does Bill do with this money? He uses it to develop projects like Passport with the hope that one day he can tax everyone that wants to have a "login" feature on their site.

    We have the opportunity to be directly involved with the evolution of PHP, as opposed to being a bothersome customer with a feature another feature request. There's guys under the age of 25 who have contributed to PHP and made a massive difference to it's use on the Internet, gaining personal credit for their work rather than having it attributed to Bill.

    And take a company like eZ systems. What these guys are giving away for free is allow people who might never have considered "going online" to construct enterprise level websites.

    Look at who's posted here. Firepages for example is personally responsible for putting PHP on tens of thousands (at least) or Windows boxes, no doubt behind many a company firewall. The experiences and input on these forums, passed on by FreakySid, KillaByte, Phil.Roberts, Zaire, Mincer, Theiggsta, richard_h et al (apologies if name not here - running out of time) have been read by thousands, helping them succeed with PHP as well.

    In other words, they may take our land but they will never take our freedom! :melgibson:

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    See, to me it's just doing my job as an IT professional that I learn as much as I can.

    I don't choose or not choose technologies based on some imaginary lines that I could never justify to a boss, nevermind a potential employer or client.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  3. #28
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    Alright! And I thought Jeremy was going to get away with playing all innocent on me

    See that's the real issue. If one of us writes an article about "such and such" in PHP or develops a class / PHP extension and releases it as open source, they've giving to a project that does not have the primary aim to extracting cash from it's users bank balances.

    If we do the same for .NET, we are working for Microsoft, but for free. We're promoting their technologies and encouraging other developers to add their contribution to the Bill Benevolent Fund. What does Bill do with this money? He uses it to develop projects like Passport with the hope that one day he can tax everyone that wants to have a "login" feature on their site.

    We have the opportunity to be directly involved with the evolution of PHP, as opposed to being a bothersome customer with a feature another feature request. There's guys under the age of 25 who have contributed to PHP and made a massive difference to it's use on the Internet, gaining personal credit for their work rather than having it attributed to Bill.

    And take a company like eZ systems. What these guys are giving away for free is allow people who might never have considered "going online" to construct enterprise level websites.

    Look at who's posted here. Firepages for example is personally responsible for putting PHP on tens of thousands (at least) or Windows boxes, no doubt behind many a company firewall. The experiences and input on these forums, passed on by FreakySid, KillaByte, Phil.Roberts, Zaire, Mincer, Theiggsta, richard_h et al (apologies if name not here - running out of time) have been read by thousands, helping them succeed with PHP as well.

    In other words, they may take our land but they will never take our freedom! :melgibson:
    And that has absolutely nothing to do with PHP from a technological standpoint.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    I found this thread, clears up the whole discussion for me: http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...threadid=91365
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  5. #30
    chown linux:users\ /world Hartmann's Avatar
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    Well as a little off topic sidenote, I think that we will see a Microsoft Linux Distrobution sometime in the future.... Microsoft knows they can't "kill" Linux, so why not profit from it??

    Back on topic:

    Like has been stated before, .NET has its place and PHP has its. Yes, PHP is making very big moves toward the Enterprise market but right now I believe that Java and .NET have the foothold. I don't know (I don't think anyone does) how long this will be true, but until then I will still use PHP where I think it fits and .NET where it fits (for me).

  6. #31
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    See, to me it's just doing my job as an IT professional that I learn as much as I can.
    Shouldn't that be:

    See, to me it's just doing my job as an IT professional that I earn as much as I can.

    ?


  7. #32
    SitePoint Addict richard_h's Avatar
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    I can totally understand developers not wanting to learn MS technologies (myself included).
    The reason I don't want to and hopefully won't have to develop with MS technologies is the same reason I won't purchase products endorsed by crooks (morals). Now I'm not saying MS are crooks but it would be hypocritical of me to start learning and promoting their new products when I totally disagree with nearly all their aggressive corporate business tactics.

    Monopolies are bad for everyone except the monopoly themselves and the shareholders.

    This is why I'd rather work for the competition. - Open source works for me!

  8. #33
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by richard_h
    I can totally understand developers not wanting to learn MS technologies (myself included).
    The reason I don't want to and hopefully won't have to develop with MS technologies is the same reason I won't purchase products endorsed by crooks (morals). Now I'm not saying MS are crooks but it would be hypocritical of me to start learning and promoting their new products when I totally disagree with nearly all their aggressive corporate business tactics.

    Monopolies are bad for everyone except the monopoly themselves and the shareholders.

    This is why I'd rather work for the competition. - Open source works for me!
    This is a commond viewpoint, and I'm rather disturbed by it, for two reasons.

    1. Microsoft is a HUGE company with lots of different departments and probably lots of infighting and disagreements. I.e. just because the strategy guys are nasty people doesn't make the entire company go bad, and certainly not the entire product line, which happens to be very good for most parts. It's not completely unlike refusing to live in the U.S. because you disagree with a certain senator (he might want to legalize weed), or refusing to administrate Oracle if Larry Ellison were racist.

    2. More importantly, the viewpoint you demonstrate here is very unprofessional. While I see and understand your ethical concerns about using Microsoft products, I think our first priority as developers should be our customers, and not our own personal bias. If .NET is better for your clients needs, you should use it, as it is your obligation as a software professional to do so. Corporate crime should be dealt with by the U.S. legal system ("Justice Professionals", if you like), not developers.

    By the way, if you feel like boycotting companies, by all means, do so! There are plenty that deserves it much more than Microsoft does - just take your pick among tobacco companies, for instance. Just make sure it doesn't compromise your professionality.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  9. #34
    SitePoint Zealot
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    It's always good to remember:
    use the right tool for the right job
    No matter where you go you'll always need the experience you have with different languages.
    That also goes with M$ technology, I'm not particulary interested in developing on that platform, but I'll most likely have a look at it so I know what I'm talking about.
    That said; C# does have a open-source implementation at go-mono, which also has ASP.NET implemented, hey; it even has a VB compiler! Take a look at the FAQ

  10. #35
    SitePoint Addict richard_h's Avatar
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    just because the strategy guys are nasty people doesn't make the entire company go bad
    By the way, if you feel like boycotting companies, by all means, do so! There are plenty that deserves it much
    more than Microsoft does - just take your pick among tobacco companies, for instance.
    I'm sure the vast majority of people at Philip Morris are good people, so from what you've already said this is no
    grounding for anyone to boycott them. Is there a certain criteria that has to be met to stop using a product?
    I think our first priority as developers should be our customers, and not our own
    personal bias. If .NET is better for your clients needs, you should use it, as it
    is your obligation as a software professional to do so.
    Even though MS would like you to believe it they don't have a product that is vastly superior to any of the others already out there. This means I don't impair my customers by not implementing their technologies, on the contrary I've saved them money, but that's another argument.

    Competition is healthy, it means better software and better prices which is good for me and my customers and unless I've misunderstood various media reports this is something that MS doesn't want.

  11. #36
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by richard_h
    I'm sure the vast majority of people at Philip Morris are good people, so from what you've already said this is no grounding for anyone to boycott them. Is there a certain criteria that has to be met to stop using a product?
    I was unclear - sorry. I meant that if you should boycott a company because of ethical reasons, just make sure it doesn't affect your choices as a professional.

    Even though MS would like you to believe it they don't have a product that is vastly superior to any of the others already out there. This means I don't impair my customers by not implementing their technologies, on the contrary I've saved them money, but that's another argument.
    That is a whole other argument, you are right, but Microsoft does definetly have some products that are generally better than their Open Source counterparts - MS SQL Server and the .NET Framework are two of them. Eliminating them out as choices is simply not professional, and certainly won't save your customers any money, no matter how "free" the solutions are.

    Competition is healthy, it means better software and better prices which is good for me and my customers and unless I've misunderstood various media reports this is something that MS doesn't want.
    Nobody is arguing that competition is a good thing, and as a matter of fact, Microsoft does have plenty of it areas besides desktop-OSes. And of course MS wants as little competition as possible - 99.9% of companies wants the same thing!
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  12. #37
    Ribbit... Eric.Coleman's Avatar
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    Im still stuck......

    I have access to basic ASP, becuase i have a single IIS copy on my win XP Pro machine..

    I just don't know where to turn to find out what exactly it is that I need to get up and starting creating .NET applications... do I have to fork out all that money for Visual Studio.NET?

    PHP was easy, I installed apache / mysql / php on my home box, and just started going (of course, i've moved them to a dedicated in house machine ;P )

    go-mono looks very good.. but like someone said above, think microsoft will ever come out with it's own Linux Distro? If they can't beat them, they might as well join em
    Eric Coleman
    We're consentratin' on fallin' apart
    We were contenders, now throwin' the fight
    I just wanna believe, I just wanna believe in us

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    I found it pretty easy to get asp.net running on my XP pro laptop. I installed the .Net SDK (could have downloaded just the framework) after downloading it from here: http://asp.net/

    Then went through some samples using the free WebMatrix, available from the same link. Not an issue for me, but the installers were very clear that installing .Net would not upset classic ASP.

    VS.Net is not required but I have been a little peeved to find that VS.Net is quite predominately stressed in books and such. A pain, I really don't care to spend $1k on it as we sit here today.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  14. #39
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    So get the C#.NET or whatever for 80$
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    So get the C#.NET or whatever for 80$
    Thanks, I did not know that existed, or perhaps I forgot. $110 here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vcsharp/howtobuy/pricing.asp

    I presume none of these omissions are exceptionally serious?
    Class Libraries
    Create reusable class library components using the Class Library template.
    _
    Windows Control Libraries
    Construct custom user interface controls for Windows Forms using the Windows Control Library template.
    _
    Web Control Libraries
    Construct custom Web server controls using the Web Control Library template.

    Windows Services
    Build long-running executable applications that can be automatically started at boot-time and run in their own Windows sessions.

    RAD for the server
    Access and integrate server administration tools, event logs, databases, and XML Web services. Server Explorer and tools incorporate server-side application components.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  16. #41
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Zaire
    Im still stuck......

    I have access to basic ASP, becuase i have a single IIS copy on my win XP Pro machine..

    I just don't know where to turn to find out what exactly it is that I need to get up and starting creating .NET applications... do I have to fork out all that money for Visual Studio.NET?

    PHP was easy, I installed apache / mysql / php on my home box, and just started going (of course, i've moved them to a dedicated in house machine ;P )

    go-mono looks very good.. but like someone said above, think microsoft will ever come out with it's own Linux Distro? If they can't beat them, they might as well join em
    Actually, all you need is the SDK:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/...mpositedoc.xml

    That is basically the .NET eqivalent of those PHP/mySQL/Apache packs floating around. As for the editor IDE, I REALLY recommend dishing out those $80 for Visual C#.NET, as it's soooo good, but it's not necessary - web matrix is a pretty good little editor:

    http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/default...dex=4&tabid=46
    (It also includes an integrated open souce web server, so you don't even need to install IIS)
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

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  17. #42
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Sam,

    Well, what can I say, there's a reason it's not 1,000$

    Just kidding, let me break down what each of these are so you can make a choice, but, as Mattias said, if you're only doing web pages you don't need most of these:

    Class Libraries
    Allows you to create your own central "code storage banks" which each part of your application can access.

    Windows Control Libraries
    Allow you to create custom controls. Controls are visual or non-visual application-level tools. They range from simple (textbox) to complex (calendar or colour picker controls).

    Web Control Libraries
    Same as Windows Control Libraries, except for the web.

    Windows Services
    Also known as Windows Remoting. This isn't the same as Web Services. This is for Secure Webservice-like behaviour between servers where everything is encrypted, authenticated, etc. Very cool, it's the backbone of the system we're using here, but by no means "essential". You can even do the same thing through straight webservices, it just takes more effort

    RAD for the server
    Blah blah blah. You won't need this for anything you'll be doing. It's for big expensive projects which, if you were doing them, you'd buy VS.NET
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  18. #43
    ********* obeah makeda's Avatar
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    Interesting aritlce about accessing Java classes with PHP:

    Using PHP with Java

  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Just throwing in a spoiler on the "MS will eventually port .NET to Linux argument".

    As Jeremy points out, .NET comes with Windows control libraries (and their equivalent web version). The Windows controls use Microsoft's old MFC classes for building Windows. Saw this discussed somewhere on the Mono site (because Mono are having to develop them with GTK+).

    If Microsoft wants to port .NET (fully) to Linux, they have to port the MFC classes. If they do that, it truly puts Linux in the position to kill Windows, as it becomes possible to run Windows desktop apps native on Linux.

    Although MS has it's fingers in many pies, it still only has two major revenue streams: Windows (the biggest) and Office. Is it likely to do anything to jeopardize Windows?

    One other thing;

    And of course MS wants as little competition as possible - 99.9% of companies wants the same thing!
    In Europe, particularily in the area of technology, companies have a general attitude of cooperate rather than annihilate. This comes from the fundamental understanding that customers want choice (at least in Europe they do) encouraging vendors to collaborate and develop standards they can all conform to.

    Ask yourself, for example, why four of the world top car manufacturers (BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes) all coexist happily in Germany, a country not much bigger than a typical US state?

  20. #45
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Harry, .NET doesn't use the MFC for Windows Control Libraries.

    edit: just to extend...

    ... So, the whole "extending .NET to Linux would require a complete redo of the MFC and would basically be "supporting" Linux" is a chuffy and useless line. The MFC is a piece of crap which you obviously haven't worked with, otherwise you'd know the difference. It's C++ only, though not all C++ is done using MFC of course.

    As far as MS not wanting to jeopardize Windows or Office, many people have said .NET is just that: jeopardizing it. MS is really betting the company on .NET. So, let's not say "MS would never do this because [x]", that's getting way too philosophical and knowledgeable about the future (I happen to remember certain Harry prophecies like: "MS will never let Mono do anything", "MS will never make any part of .NET shared source", etc that have proven wrong).

    So, .NET has little to do with the MFC, and let's not predict the future in our arguments about the validity of .NET
    Last edited by Jeremy W.; Jan 16, 2003 at 08:22.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Harry, .NET doesn't use the MFC for Windows Control Libraries.
    Jeremy - yes it does. I'll get back to you with the link sometime when I can find it again - according to Miguel de Icaza (lead dev on Mono), parts of the Windows Control Libraries are just wrappers for the MFC classes, which means Mono at the moment is using Wine to provide them while they implement an equivalent in GTK+.

  22. #47
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    MFC is an old, clunky, centralized class library. It is a pain in the *** to work with, and behaves completely differently in 1000 ways than .NET does.

    Feel free to try and prove differently, but since I've worked with both in the last month (spent 3 weeks creating an app in MFC, only to spend 3 hours doing the same work in .NET), I can safely say that "uses the MFC" is far to generic of a statement.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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    Twitter: @jeremywright

  23. #48
    SitePoint Enthusiast nbaxley's Avatar
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    It seems to me, and I've only had limited exposure to .net, that from a web standpoint, you don't need MFC or any of the windows compnents. With that in mind, Mono becomes a very viable alternative to running .Net on Windows boxes.

    The other thing I've noticed from my training class in .Net was that the instrutor seemed to lean heavily on the IDE doing a lot of the work. This worked great for the simple examples in the book, but quickly broke down when we tried to extend the examples. I'm afraid that Visual Stuion.Net is going to facilitate a lot of inefficeient web sites produced by less than stellar programmers. The one place that it does shine is the code behind files. This allows you to seperate the display of your page from the "back end" processing that needs to consume the page results. Being able to seperate these but keep them as a unit is the one place I see good coming from .Net. That and the fact C# is an excellent replacement from the very limited VBScript used in most ASP today.
    Nate Baxley
    http://www.baxleys.org - no excusses, it is what it is.

  24. #49
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    "Seemed to break down"...

    I'm sure I'm lost. Developing any website requires planning. If you were simply trying to extend a website that wasn't designed to be extensible, it is quite easy to watch it break down.

    But, if you plan your procedures and stuff properly, rely on the strengths of the platform and develop smart you shouldn't really have any issues.

    It's no different than any other IDE, language or platform really, but I'd love to hear an example of how the IDE was at fault
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  25. #50
    SitePoint Evangelist
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    .NET doesn't use the MFC for Windows Control Libraries.
    Just because the .NET API doesn't look like MFC (which is indeed a big piece of junk) doesn't mean that MFC isn't used internally. I don't know that it does, nor that it doesn't. Harry seems to. It's quite possible that .NET uses wrappers around MFC's classes, in which case it can reuse almost everything without exposing you to that fact.

    It's no different than any other IDE, language or platform really, but I'd love to hear an example of how the IDE was at fault
    In general, IDE's lead developers away from the real code. The obvious examples are Delphi or Visual Studio (C++): they allow you to design forms (windows) using a graphical tool, and generate the necessary code for it. This is not a bad thing, because they greatly speed up application development. However, those who cannot do without (because they have no idea what happens behind the scenes) will never be very good programmers.

    but Microsoft does definetly have some products that are generally better than their Open Source counterparts - MS SQL Server and the .NET Framework are two of them
    MS SQL Server? you've got to be joking! As of version 8 (2000) it has finally become a database server you can do some serious work with, but it's still not that good! (And there are much better Open Source database servers.) Mind that I'm not disagreeing with the fact that MS does have some very good products (Office, .NET). It's just that SQL Server isn't one of them...

    Vincent


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