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  1. #1
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    Are there any higher level developers on here, or just code hackers?

    I'm just curious, with the threads I'm reading. I thought sitepoint was used by developers, but I'm not so certain now. Just trying to work out if this is a good place to ask more difficult code questions, or if I should look elsewhere?

    Cheers.

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    Depending on your definition, one could say that developers and "code hackers" are pretty much the same thing.
    Both of which utilize codes to create or alter things, so the differences between the two aren't too significant.

    There are plenty of hard-core Web developers here, but there are also a lot of people who do it merely as a hobby.
    Site Point is a magnificent place to ask both beginner questions as well as advanced ones.

    Best of luck to you.

  3. #3
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    Unfortunately so far I've received no "advanced" responses, nor read any, hence my question.

    And from legitimate honesty, wanting to work out if this is really a place to learn from at that level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deeve007 View Post
    I'm just curious, with the threads I'm reading. I thought sitepoint was used by developers, but I'm not so certain now. Just trying to work out if this is a good place to ask more difficult code questions, or if I should look elsewhere?
    I guess it depends on what you expect to learn free of charge.

    Forums like this are good to get help on particular issues. Not to become an expert on all aspects of web development. I doubt any knowledgeable people learnt their stuff solely from forums. Personally I give more time and detailed answers to paying customers.

  5. #5
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    I'm not here to "become an expert on all aspects of web development", after 15 years I'm pretty happy with where I am. I just thought there was more technically advanced users than there are here, is all.

    But don't worry about it, not important.

  6. #6
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    @deeve007 ; I sort of understand where you'd get the impression that high level developers are few and far between on SP these days. At one point this was the place to be if you were on the bleeding edge of web (and some desktop) development. That seems to have changed over the years... I can still name a few members here who are hardcore coders but they are just a handful compared to just a few years ago.

    The discussions have changed too which reflects the changing demographic. There seem to be a lot more questions surrounding point and click, download a theme and add a bunch of features rather than how do I extend the system by accessing hooks of an API. I miss the old days of discussions that dug beneath the surface.

    The PHP forum used to include a subforum that contained "PHP Application Design" which was more of the hard core development stuff. The CMS forum use to have a subforum for WordPress which I also thought was a good idea because most WP questions are about configuration and that left the rest of the CMS section open to general CMS development questions about any CMS approach. I tend to think mos people think that this section is only for WP and as a result don't post or answer questions about anything else.

    Oh and look in the articles archives from the last 10 or 12 years... There are some really good articles squirreled away there.

    @tunnil: Since you only seem to have 3 posts to your name and a join date of sometime in the past 3 weeks, I suspect your answer about what you get "free of charge" is misguided. If you look into the past 10 - 12 years of discussions on SP, you'll find that there is a lot of "free" knowledge that has been doled out over the years surrounding MVC, Patterns, OOP, PHP, C#, Java, ASP (Classic), SQL, SQL Server, MySQL, Oracle, etc.... All of it free of charge and all aimed at making us better developers and a better community. That's the way I look at it anyway.
    Last edited by Shyflower; Jul 27, 2012 at 04:33. Reason: fixed mention
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  7. #7
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    Thanks for the response/info Andrew, much appreciated. And you're right in your first paragraph, I did recall when sitepoint was the place to get good technical information. It's a little disappointing with the majority of forum content now being about point & click apps. Not that there's anything wrong with those things to a point, but to dominate a forum as it does is just a little disappointing, hence probably need to look elsewhere for that level of technical feedback.

    The fact that there's so many Joomla threads should have alerted me.

    Cheers.

    PS: If you know of a good, technically advanced Wordpress developers forum, recommendation would be much appreciated.

  8. #8
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    I'd look into LinkedIn Groups. There are lots of WP groups and some of them look pretty good. I've joined a couple for Drupal development and there's a bit of development tip and code sharing that goes on. Lots of job-spam to wade through when the groups get popular but lots of good info as well.

    As far as SP goes, I'm still hanging in there and I make suggestions regarding the forum architecture every now and then but I don't understand the direction they're taking it at the moment. I miss the PHP App Development section and I think the CMS section should be split into two or more sections to cover configuration and code/development.

    Anyway, we'll see how it pans out.

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  9. #9
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    Cool, thanks mate, appreciated.

  10. #10
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    While I totally get where you're coming from with this thread, I've been biting my lip on this one, but I think it bears saying ...

    The next forum you go to, if you want people to help you, then you might consider a different approach to your introduction.

    Not a lot of communities are going to respond well when you ask questions like "This place seems like a bunch of amateurs. Does anyone here even know what the heck they're doing? Or are you all just a bunch of hacks?"

    You might not always get the best response from that.

  11. #11
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    If you can suggest another way to ask the question then please do, and I'll take note for next time, I'm not too slow a learner. But I came here to find a resource of a certain type, and if it's not available here then I'd rather find out sooner than later. I had already come to an initial conclusion from browsing the threads, but figured I might get a more informed response if I asked, however blunt it may seem. And I did, thanks to Andrew above, and so no one needs to waste anyone's further time. Seems win-win to me.

    Plus I don't really know why anyone would take offence at "code hacker" anyway. For the most part that's exactly what I am, and would be quite accepting of someone describing me as that. However I am seeking info that's a little above the code hacker level so I myself can take that step up, and hence my question.

    And if someone's really going to take offence from someone's post on a public forum then that's something they need to address, it's just a web forum, not someone in the pub calling their sister a hooker. I'm pretty sure in a few days you'll think nothing more of this thread or me, and I likewise. I'm sure we both have more important things to worry about. So apologies for the bluntness, but it achieved the objective, and no animals were harmed in its writing.

    Take care.
    Dave

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeve007 View Post
    Plus I don't really know why anyone would take offence at "code hacker" anyway. For the most part that's exactly what I am, and would be quite accepting of someone describing me as that.
    Perhaps you could define what you mean by "code hacker".

    When I see "code hacker" that means someone who doesn't know what they are doing and so tries to take short cuts by cobbling together bits and pieces of code from all sorts of places and then scratches their bum wondering why the heck their code doesn't work....go figure .

    Then after giving up trying to fix by themselves what are usually simple and stupid mistakes, they drag their broken code into forums like this one looking for someone to untangle the the code and fix it for free, thinking that forums are just a free debugging service which they are not.

    Is the above definition of a code hacker the same as yours?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tunnil View Post
    Is the above definition of a code hacker the same as yours?
    No.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeve007 View Post
    No.
    ok, then until I see yours I'll stick with mine above.

  15. #15
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    Christ, you don't have more important things to worry about?

    (and after just 5 posts??)

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeve007 View Post
    Christ, you don't have more important things to worry about?

    (and after just 5 posts??)
    I suppose it would be reasonable for anyone to ask you the same question, especially since you have only 16 posts

    But in any case, what's the issue here?

    I asked for your definition of a code hacker, which you haven't posted, and I gave you mine so we can compare apples with apples. I don't see how I can be any fairer than that

  17. #17
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    Well, you may not (it seems), but I have plenty more important things to worry about.

    Adios.

  18. #18
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    There are some brilliant people around here, but part of the problem with a forum is that people's attendance is somewhat random, so on any given day, week or month there's no guarantee of what help/answers you will get.

  19. #19
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    Thanks Ralph, appreciate the informed viewpoint.

    Cheers.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    There are some brilliant people around here, but part of the problem with a forum is that people's attendance is somewhat random, so on any given day, week or month there's no guarantee of what help/answers you will get.
    Ralph, I think there's more to it and that's why I didn't take offense to the bluntness of the thread.

    Back in 2006, when deeve07 joined SP, the quality of discussion was far more technically oriented and I think the forum architecture was better suited to getting into those discussions. Over time that has changed. We used to have an application development subsection under PHP where there were deep discussions about design patterns; not just MVC, but all sorts patterns. I did a little posting in there but more often I lurked and learned and then bought books to learn more. Then CMS became CMS & Wordpress which kind of leaves those of us who work on other systems out in the cold... If this has somehow improved SP's business model or bottom line, well that's great but I do miss the deep coding and development discussions.

    Also, what happened to the "tech times" and other newsletters? Those were great but I don't remember the last time I read one.

    PS: When I think of code hacking, I'm not offended. I remember when being a hacker meant 2600 (http://www.2600.com/) and things like that. Now when I hear hacker or code hacker, I think of Makezine or Hackaday.
    Andrew Wasson | www.lunadesign.org
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Back in 2006, when deeve07 joined SP, the quality of discussion was far more technically oriented and I think the forum architecture was better suited to getting into those discussions. Over time that has changed. We used to have an application development subsection under PHP ...
    Yes, all fair points (and I wasn't around then) although the reason for stripping out / merging some forums is that they were basically withering on the vine. So it seems to be an issue of changing times rather than a wish on the part of SitePoint to change things. Before the forums were reordered, the staff did discuss this at length, wondering how—if possible—to turn things back to the way they were. But it seems nothing lasts forever ... and people don't seem to be turning to forums now the way they did some years ago. The forum admins are very open to any ideas people have about the way forward, though.

  22. #22
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    @CMS Dude ;: I include you in the handful of individuals here who can dig deep and discuss development beyond copying code or downloading themes but regardless of how he's asked the question, he raised a valid point. The quality of development discussions has dropped considerably in the last couple of years. I've been here a while and I've seen it drop and I'm concerned about it too.

    BTW: your suggestion isn't going to help find an answer his question. He's not a newb. This place used to be the exact place where you could go ask highly technical questions of complete strangers and get help finding the answers. No question was "really dumb" or "useless" It helped grow a community because the more people were helped, the more they chipped in helping others. Now, not so much maybe...
    Last edited by Shyflower; Jul 27, 2012 at 04:40.
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  23. #23
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    I'm going to jump in here because things are getting a bit heated (and off topic). Thanks for your post @deeve007 ; you certainly make a very relevant point. I'll attempt to address it.

    The bottom line is this: the nature and purpose of forums has changed. They used to be places where people would come to bounce around complicated ideas with their peers. Experts hung out here because there was nowhere else to hang out. That isn't the case any more. There are so many other options for that kind of interaction that people don't waste their time with forums where they are constantly interrupted by newbies (for want of a nicer way of putting it). Forums are now environments for (1) people looking for a quick answer that they can grab and leave and (2) beginners that like the anonymity of asking what they think may be perceived as a 'dumb' question in a theoretically nurturing environment. Those are both valid reasons to be here, but they pose a problem for us in terms of retaining experts. The two groups are incongruous and are looking for different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    ...I don't understand the direction they're taking it at the moment. I miss the PHP App Development section and I think the CMS section should be split into two or more sections to cover configuration and code/development. ...If this has somehow improved SP's business model or bottom line, well that's great but I do miss the deep coding and development discussions.
    The decision to cull the forums was mine and it has nothing to do with business or money. My sole responsibility is to look after our community. Unfortunately the sheer number of sub-forums was making it a daunting place for newcomers so we scaled back to help them out - they are our bread and butter these days. I don't believe that the structure of our forums have anything to do with the change. It was happening before that and there is nothing stopping people from creating an advanced thread in one of the forums that we retained - all the old threads still exist, they were just merged. Those subforums had such low traffic that they weren't serving any purpose. Without an audience to take part in the threads, things were lying dormant for days or even weeks at a time. Our traffic is still the same and registration levels haven't changed - it is just our demographic that has.

    I wish it wasn't the case, but it is so we have to move with the times.

    Quote Originally Posted by awasson View Post
    Also, what happened to the "tech times" and other newsletters? Those were great but I don't remember the last time I read one.
    We redesigned the newsletters and split the Tech Times into more specific niches. There is now newsletters for Ruby, Cloud, Mobile development and PHP.

    I hope that answers some of your questions.

  24. #24
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    Oh, I just saw your response @ralph.m ;. Thanks for shedding some light on that.

    Hey HAWK, nice to see you... and thanks for piping up and bringing some info into the mix. Actually I'm impressed with the overall demeanor considering how things can become inflamed on "the interwebs". There's definitely some button pushing but the reactions and answers seem pretty level headed.

    Now that deeve007 brought up the subject I'm a bit curious, and/or perplexed about it because I always felt there was a lot of value in the knowledgebase that was the SP forum. Also, I wonder what happened to some of the members from way back when. I guess they've moved on to other interests. Maybe as ralph_m mentioned the questions stopped coming up and times have changed.

    My interests have gone from general web development to specific CMS work and CRM work which is challenging but much more narrowly focused. I set my forum settings to show me all new threads from the CMS section on a daily basis (via email) but unfortunately not a lot of questions come up under my particular areas of interest.
    Last edited by Shyflower; Jul 27, 2012 at 04:40. Reason: fixed mention
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAWK View Post
    Unfortunately the sheer number of sub-forums was making it a daunting place for newcomers so we scaled back to help them out - they are our bread and butter these days.
    While I can totally see the logic in this decision ... I believe the unfortunate consequence has been exactly what has been mentioned in this thread. You might be attracting more newcomers, but in order for them to stay, they're going to want to have some more experienced developers to learn from. And unfortunately, some of them may have moved on seeking greener pastures.

    Maybe there's a happy middle ground that could be stricken. I, for one, would welcome an opportunity to mentor and pass along some of what I know ... provided this place wasn't just over-run with Wordpress users who just want free technical support all the time. I practically jump at every Joomla or Drupal question ... just because it affords me an opportunity to talk about something that isn't Wordpress (which is a fine CMS by the way -- just not the only one).


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