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  1. #76
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    just a note...

    Apache2 is supposed to be more stable on win32 NOT faster, and I find it is exactly that ,not faster though it is supposed to do better under load than apache1.* which is not even recommended for win32 + of course PHP4/Apache2 is still experimental and as such quirky.

    PHP can run as an ISAPI module on IIS , not sure for sure about the speed difference, MS admit that any server module would probably be faster than say vanilla ASP but of course .NET is a different cookie altogether from that.

    But whilst I would love to see a speed fest between the 2 I dont think its realistic to really compare PHP (or PERL/Python/whatever for that matter) on IIS, whatever the result there will always be the 'ah but try it on *NIX factor' possibly from the likes of me even in a `win` situation.

    Different databases is as much the key as anything, MySQL excels (as already noted) on straight selects and therefore would be expected to win vs SQL server on the simple stuff , but since MySQL is x-platform you could use that for both? , or Oracle if anyone has a spare liscence (or home edition [haha])

  2. #77
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    .NET Server for designed for .NET

    AND the version of .NET Server is RC1, which will also present a slight disadvantage.

  3. #78
    Ribbit... Eric.Coleman's Avatar
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    I don't know if you guys found a server to test on, but I can do it if you like

    My Setup:

    XP Pro
    1gb RAM
    AMD 1.3ghz

    IIS / .NET
    APACHE / PHP

    And MySQL

    I'll be willing to run the tests if you like ( don't have time to read all 4 pages )
    Eric Coleman
    We're consentratin' on fallin' apart
    We were contenders, now throwin' the fight
    I just wanna believe, I just wanna believe in us

  4. #79
    ALT.NET - because we need it silver trophybronze trophy dhtmlgod's Avatar
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    We're going to be running them on mine

    p4 2.53ghz
    windows .NET Server
    256meg(ram)

    I will be reinstalling the while system to dual boot between .net server and linux


  5. #80
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Firepages, exactly, so if we ran one set of tests on the "neutral" environment (win2k) and another set of tests on the "home" environment (.NET Server and xNix) wouldn't that satisfy? It would give us a reasonable baseline so long as the neutral ground tests:

    1. Use the same hardware (they will, they'll be on the same machine)
    2. Use the same OS (win2k in my opinion)
    3. Use the same webserver (ISAPI is extremely fast on IIS5)
    4. Use the same database (SQL Server is what we've chosen for the "neutral" tests, right?)

    So, we can run the neutral tests on our one unused server here at work Dell PowerEdge 1650 with 1GB of RAM, RAID, Windows 2K Advanced Server, dual processors, etc, and the "home" tests on D's machine.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  6. #81
    Ribbit... Eric.Coleman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by dhtmlgod
    We're going to be running them on mine

    p4 2.53ghz
    windows .NET Server
    256meg(ram)

    I will be reinstalling the while system to dual boot between .net server and linux

    Ahh, ok
    Eric Coleman
    We're consentratin' on fallin' apart
    We were contenders, now throwin' the fight
    I just wanna believe, I just wanna believe in us

  7. #82
    SitePoint Wizard Mincer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    Firepages, exactly, so if we ran one set of tests on the "neutral" environment (win2k) and another set of tests on the "home" environment (.NET Server and xNix) wouldn't that satisfy? It would give us a reasonable baseline so long as the neutral ground tests:
    Perhaps the neutral ground test should be run on another operating system altogether. How about OSX? or Solaris?

  8. #83
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    Originally posted by HarryF
    [B]I'm done. 1232 records from MySQL (you're XML file) in under 0.01 seconds (usually around 0.005 seconds). Page rending (interestingly) takes longer (or at least so say the figures - you tell me which page takes longer to get...

    This: http://www.oreosnbeer.com/sitepoint/sp1t.aspx

    or this;

    http://www.pinkgoblin.com/test/speedtest.php
    wow....the PHP page was obviously much faster

  9. #84
    The doctor is in... silver trophy MarcusJT's Avatar
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    I feel I should reiterate that pure speed does not necessarily translate into a better implementation of a web app - scalability (i.e. performance under load) is what counts....! (which rather unfortunately further complicates the test procedures! sorry!)
    Last edited by M@rco; Nov 21, 2002 at 17:51.
    MarcusJT
    - former ASP web developer / former SPF "ASP Guru"
    - *very* old blog with some useful ASP code

    - Please think, Google, and search these forums before posting!

  10. #85
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I included performance under load (curve graphs) we just need to agree on how we're going to do the tests
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  11. #86
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Solarex


    wow....the PHP page was obviously much faster
    eeeh, no - that is why we are having this discussion. If we are to see if PHP is faster, we must take mySQL out of the equation, as that is most likely responsible for the speed.
    Mattias Johansson
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  12. #87
    SitePoint Addict mgkimsal's Avatar
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    numbers

    FWIW, I have run some numbers on Apache/PHP on Win32 (module, not CGI) with MSSQL drivers.

    This was taking the crux of HarryF's code, and importing the result sets of the examples so far (1200+ records)

    Using pconnect, so once it's run a few times there's no connection overhead.

    Setup -
    800 Mhz Athlon
    256 megs
    W2k
    SQL Server 2000
    Apache 1.3.x (12?)
    PHP 4.2.3 (running as module)
    MSSQL drivers

    A couple runs
    --------------
    Query Start: 0.0029261112213135
    Query End: 0.077633023262024
    Loop start: 0.078207015991211
    Page Took: 0.13429009914398
    --------------
    Query Start: 0.0035619735717773
    Query End: 0.079300999641418
    Loop start: 0.07974898815155
    Page Took: 0.15987396240234
    --------------

    As you can see, running the query itself
    is usually the biggest hit. The 'looping' thru
    is between 45ms and 80ms (on average).

    This seems to be in line with the ASP.net numbers -
    roughly. The fastest I saw for the full page was 80ms -
    I'm assuming there is a better driver set for MSSQL direct than the one I'm using (bad assumption?). Perhaps the DAO
    was caching the resultset in memory?

    I may try this with ODBC and/or MySQL later too...

    What hardware are the other two examples running on?

    Michael Kimsal
    http://www.logicreate.com
    734-480-9961

  13. #88
    No. Phil.Roberts's Avatar
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    Its nice to see the two sides co-operating in a proper competition rather than a slanging match for a change.


    I believe Microsoft have a free web application stress-testing tool available for download somewhere. If thats of any use....
    THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW ARE OLD AND MAY BE INACCURATE.
    THIS INSTALL METHOD IS NOT RECOMMENDED, IT MAY RUN
    OVER YOUR DOG. <-- MediaWiki installation guide

  14. #89
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    yeah, we'll be using that, and I'll have my tools open to test SQL Server and the Server loads. Dunno what we'll do for Apache loads though...
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
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  15. #90
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Apache Bench - depending on the platform

    Sean
    Harry Potter

    -- You lived inside my world so softly
    -- Protected only by the kindness of your nature

  16. #91
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    Sean,
    I'm interested doing some Apache perfomance tests...Apache Bench...who is it ?
    A link will be of some help for me!

    Platforms:
    win2000pro / FreeBSD



    Ei fu!
    Mr Andrea
    Former Hosting Team Advisor
    Former Advisor of '03

  17. #92
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    http://httpd.apache.org/docs/programs/ab.html

    freddydoesphp was a fan of it if you do some searching here

    Sean
    Harry Potter

    -- You lived inside my world so softly
    -- Protected only by the kindness of your nature

  18. #93
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    I'll search, thanks!
    Mr Andrea
    Former Hosting Team Advisor
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  19. #94
    ********* wombat firepages's Avatar
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    ab.exe should already be sitting in your /apache/bin folder (on win32)simple use eg...

    ab.exe -n 20 -c 20 http://localhost:80/phpinfo.php

    calls phpinfo.php 20 times with 20 concurent requests , haha best not run any tests on my machine

  20. #95
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Does the Windows version come with Apache 2*?

    Sean
    Harry Potter

    -- You lived inside my world so softly
    -- Protected only by the kindness of your nature

  21. #96
    FreeBSD The Power to Serve silver trophy pippo's Avatar
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    firepages, thanks!

    >>Does the Windows version come with Apache 2*?
    Yup!



    pippo
    Mr Andrea
    Former Hosting Team Advisor
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  22. #97
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Thank you Mr Pip!

    Sean
    Harry Potter

    -- You lived inside my world so softly
    -- Protected only by the kindness of your nature

  23. #98
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I'm writing up a synopsis now of where we're at
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  24. #99
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Well, this seems to have died this weekend, so I'll go over where I think we're at, and anyone can post disagreements (though I'll try to address points as I go through). If there are none we'll just start on it this week

    Purpose of the tests
    The purpose of the testing is not to prove which language is faster, as many would love to do, but to see how they perform in comparable situations so that we can all make more informed decisions whenever we have a project where either could be used. Knowledge is power, and if we are to take over the world we have to have more knowledge

    Tests to be performed
    The tests will be performed twice through. One set of tests will be run on as neutral environment as we can find, Windows 2000, and then a second time in as highly optimized an environment as possible for each language. Windows 2000 is being chosen as the neutral environment since PHP is cross-platform, and .NET wasn't designed for Windows 2000, though it should run sufficiently well while still having a significant handicap over it's native environment. The tests to be performed are:

    MySQL-based test series
    SQL Server "pure" test series
    SQL Server w/ stored proc test series
    Connections limits
    Connections vs speed tests (curve)
    Server load vs connections (curve)

    All of these will be done on a test-bed app (either what we currently have or a new one) and may include independent Use Cases afterwards.

    At this point I should note Harry's "strong disagreement" as he feels that MS will "pull a fast one", "as they did with J2EE". I'm rather offended by that statement, since all code will be open to close inspection by both communities so I'm rather unsure how any "fast one" could be pulled. .NET was written for .NET Server in the same way that PHP was written for LAMP. The usefulness of any tests in a "favourite environment" must always include a baseline, and the closest we can come to a neutral environment is Windows 2000 in which PHP is supposed to perform quite well (especially considering the hardware I'm throwing at this, more to come on that though) and in which .NET performs "okay" (at about 20% of the performance of .NET Server). Without a baseline, or as close as we can come to it, the "favourite environment" tests will be unacceptable to both communities, no matter who wins, and we won't gain any knowledge out of this, which is the actual point of the tests.

    Testing Environment
    The tests will be run on a cleanly installed Dell PowerEdge 2650 with the following specs:

    2 x Xeon T 2.0GHz
    1GB DDR RAM @ 200MHz, 2 x 512 DIMMS
    Windows 2000 Advanced Server (includes benchmarking tools we'll need for processor usage)
    RAID 5 array of 3 x 36GB, 15K RPM, 1" Ultra 3 (Ultra 160) SCSI's

    I hope this is satisfactory, and should eliminate any concerns that the issue is in the hardware. It will be performed over a network (10GB/sec or whatever, I can get the network specs if needed) so we can measure that load as well (though I need to find some software for this), and the database server will be a Dell PowerEdge 1650 with the following specs:

    P3 T @ 1.4GHz w/ 512K Cache
    1GB SDRAM @ 133MHz (4 x 128MB DIMMS)
    Windows 2000 Advanced Server
    RAID 5 array of 3 x 36GB, 15K RPM, 1" Ultra 3 (Ultra 160) SCSI's

    Some may feel this isn't as powerful as the webservers, but there isn't any need to. The load we'll be placing on the websites will have more than 80% of the power @ the webserver and since I know this server can handle a lot more than we'll be throwing at it I'm not too worried about it being a bottleneck either.

    The network will be configured as a private network so that no unauthorized access, DoS's or whatever will affect it as otherwise might be possible (though our firewall hasn't let anything through in over a year).

    The end result
    At the end of the tests, the results will be published as part of the .NET Theme Week coming up soon, and both communities will write an opinion column on it. I'll probably head up the .NET one and Harry'll probably do the PHP community's editorial and both should be subject to peer approval on both sides to maintain a level of professionalism which keeps the editorials focused on our goal: knowledge, instead of bashing one language or another as this test isn't to prove which language is better or worse.

    Comments welcome
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  25. #100
    Currently Occupied; Till Sunda Andrew-J2000's Avatar
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    I just received windows .net server so I will be giving that a test soon, just wondering how dhtmlgod is getting on with it and linux, anyone else tested .net server yet?

    Anyway...

    Originally posted by Jeremy W.
    At this point I should note Harry's "strong disagreement" as he feels that MS will "pull a fast one", "as they did with J2EE". I'm rather offended by that statement, since all code will be open to close inspection by both communities so I'm rather unsure how any "fast one" could be pulled. .NET was written for .NET Server in the same way that PHP was written for LAMP. The usefulness of any tests in a "favourite environment" must always include a baseline, and the closest we can come to a neutral environment is Windows 2000 in which PHP is supposed to perform quite well (especially considering the hardware I'm throwing at this, more to come on that though) and in which .NET performs "okay" (at about 20% of the performance of .NET Server). Without a baseline, or as close as we can come to it, the "favourite environment" tests will be unacceptable to both communities, no matter who wins, and we won't gain any knowledge out of this, which is the actual point of the tests.



    Comments welcome
    I kind of agree with Harry, about this, however these results cannot be exact as in different situations different languages/operating systems/databases make all the difference in terms of performance/scalability/security.
    Each of these end up as a trade off, especially where security is concerned. Besides this it should be fun to see who comes out ontop

    ps what firewall you using Jeremy.


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